World Cup: 2022 World Cup Qualifiers

[Scandale du Jour]

Where have I talked about the victims?
You're making stuff up here.
I'm repeating that a leader of a free democratic country is using those threats on his own people.
I don't necessarily agree with the truckers here.

If a south American country was doing the same, Trudeau would point the finger. That's the hypocrisy I'm talking about here.

My problem with your argument is that you are putting everything on the same level. Same when we discuss the Qataris versus other shady owners.

I am not making things up, I am just providing context to the example you are using. Like Trudeau doing that is not on the same level as Poutine invading a free country (with its own immoral tendencies, I concur) for imperialistic reasons. If you want to argue that Canada has imperialist policies too, fine. If you want to argue that Canada going to Afghanistan was wrong, fine. If you want to argue that it makes Canada (and the West) hypocrites, fine. But your current example is a bad one.

If you want to argue that the sanctions on Russian teams/the national team are hypocritical AND also imperialistic in nature. I won't fight that. But let's not put all evil on the same level.

 

[koyvoo]

My point is to introduce standards that'll be applied consistently if we're going to start punishing NTs for the actions of their governments, and doing so requires recognizing the double standards that are applied to Russia.

If we're going to start drawing a line, let's figure out where it should go & draw that line.

Warmongering is warmongering. It seems many people have different standards for warmongering nations dependent on which hemisphere they are from.

 

[cgf]

Public disorder needs to be defined here.

I don't know the details of that one too deeply so will leave it to some of our canadian friends to clarify, but based on my understanding of what's been going on up there, I don't think I was using overly extreme language. I may be wrong though, which is why I tried to phrase things more abstractly to make the point that compromising on some freedoms is the contribution that we all make to live in a functioning society.

Which is why I think that not having complete freedom doesn't automatically mean that you don't live in a free society...as an extreme example to illustrate the concept: laws against murder restrict individual liberties but make society freer on the whole.

 

[Evilo]

My problem with your argument is that you are putting everything on the same level. Same when we discuss the Qataris versus other shady owners.

I am not making things up, I am just providing context to the example you are using. Like Trudeau doing that is not on the same level as Poutine invading a free country (with its own immoral tendencies, I concur) for imperialistic reasons. If you want to argue that Canada has imperialist policies too, fine. If you want to argue that Canada going to Afghanistan was wrong, fine. If you want to argue that it makes Canada (and the West) hypocrites, fine. But your current example is a bad one.

If you want to argue that the sanctions on Russian teams/the national team are hypocritical AND also imperialistic in nature. I won't fight that. But let's not put all evil on the same level.

And my point is that you're once again reading things I never wrote.
I didn't put them on the same level.
Read my post.

 

[cgf]

Warmongering is warmongering. It seems many people have different standards for warmongering nations dependent on which hemisphere they are from.

Yeah. Having better reasons for warmongering than the other guy, even if objectively true, doesn't excuse your own warmongering.

Some wars have to be fought, like WWII, and then it's not warmongering...but most wars do not fall into this category.

 

[Havre]

Stop blocking people man haha. Havre did, and btw you guys are on the same side here.

That is why the French have never won a war. Poor men get so easily upset. Without good sleep you can’t aim well. I wish Putin was French.

 

[Evilo]

I don't know the details of that one too deeply so will leave it to some of our canadian friends to clarify, but based on my understanding of what's been going on up there, I don't think I was using overly extreme language. I may be wrong though, which is why I tried to phrase things more abstractly to make the point that compromising on some freedoms is the contribution that we all make to live in a functioning society.

Which is why I think that not having complete freedom doesn't automatically mean that you don't live in a free society...as an extreme example to illustrate the concept: laws against murder restrict individual liberties but make society freer on the whole.

Yeah I don't think what was done warranted such threats.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

And my point is that you're once again reading things I never wrote.
I didn't put them on the same level.
Read my post.

You used things out of context to make a claim about hypocrisy. I agree with you underlying point, btw. I just disagree with the example you used. I think it is a very bad one for many reasons we should not really expend on here.

I do agree that people are often very selective of what they consider acceptable and not often willing to look into the shady things happening in their own backyard. And I do agree with you that sanctions against Russian players/teams is stupid and merely a political move.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Damn, Adidas bans sellings in Russia of their tracksuits made by Ouighours.
That'll show them !

Wow, there's some memes to be made there lol.

Anyway, a few years ago when there was a big kerfuffle about the Bahrain GP and lots of calls to boycott it, I made a list of reasons why every single GP in the world could be boycotted.

Wholesale banning of everything Russian from sport opens a Pandoras Box the like of which we've never seen before.

Having said that, I still support it. This isn't a knee jerk reaction, this has been building for 20 years - constant bullying and war making against his weaker neighbours, callous and brazen assassinations of political opponents and critics, including the use of chemical weapons in other countries. And now an invasion of Ukraine that has united the western world, left and right. He's gone too far, he's anshlussed Austria and he's retaken the Sudetanland, Europe is doing everything they can, short of war, to stop him taking Poland.

I'm an aircraft nut, I'm in loads of aviation communities on the web - it's not in the mainstream media but there is an airborne ring of steel that has been forward deployed from the USA, UK, Canada, Denmark, you name it, to Romania, Poland, the Baltic states. Spy planes and drones are trawling up and down the border region 24/7, information and weapons are being freely supplied to Ukraine. If crippling economic and sporting sanctions (even if unfair and of possibly dubious legality) prevent war and protect Ukraine, we have to try that first.

 

[cgf]

Yeah I don't think what was done warranted such threats.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that's at the very least debatable when you combine the disruption of the protests to them spreading dis-/misinformation during a time of pandemic, the extremist links of many of the organizers, and the foreign funds backing the protests.

And even if one administration does take a step too far when dealing with a crisis, it doesn't mean they're not a free society anymore. That's too overly simplistic for me.

 

[Live in the Now]

Just going to pop in because I saw someone mention Israel and saying they should be banned. They prevent one national team's players from being allowed to go play with their NT, they ban them from leaving Palestine. So I mean yeah I'm not sure why they get to play. They directly impact the sport by doing that.

I'm just surprised that other than South Africa people were willing to tolerate facing NT's from countries that did this kind of stuff for so long.

 

[luiginb]

There's Palestinian players in the Israeli national team too.

 

[maclean]

Personally, I protested in person against the bombing of Serbia, against the attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan many times, and I have also protested against this one. Israeli apartheid as well. Yes, I most certainly would like to see Western governments held to the same level of accountability as Russia is being held to now. I wanted nothing more than for the international community to call bullshit on the US when it was raving about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. If this meant excluding them from international sporting events, then by all means, I would certainly have been for it. And honestly, if I were a Russian athlete, I would understand it and I would be pissed off about it but against my own government, just as I have been many times before.

The reason people react the way they do to whataboutism is very simple - if you are not saying that you think nothing should be done about this invasion, then what the f*** are you even saying, or why? It is automatically seen as an argument to do nothing, even if you don't feel like you mean it that way. It is also a tactic and line of argument used generously by certain "diversionists" in this manner, so it evokes an analogue reaction. As someone who is used to having opinions that are outside the mainstream, I do not take great pleasure in sharing a mindspace with people I consider hypocrites. But that's OK, that is life, you follow what you think is right, and infighting doesn't do anyone any good, only helps the greater evil.

 

[Evilo]

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that's at the very least debatable when you combine the disruption of the protests to them spreading dis-/misinformation during a time of pandemic, the extremist links of many of the organizers, and the foreign funds backing the protests.

And even if one administration does take a step too far when dealing with a crisis, it doesn't mean they're not a free society anymore. That's too overly simplistic for me.

Did I say it was?
I was merely pointing out that western leaders would point the fingers if it was in South America or elsewhere. Like they do ALL THE TIME.

 

[Evilo]

Personally, I protested in person against the bombing of Serbia, against the attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan many times, and I have also protested against this one. Israeli apartheid as well. Yes, I most certainly would like to see Western governments held to the same level of accountability as Russia is being held to now. I wanted nothing more than for the international community to call bullshit on the US when it was raving about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. If this meant excluding them from international sporting events, then by all means, I would certainly have been for it. And honestly, if I were a Russian athlete, I would understand it and I would be pissed off about it but against my own government, just as I have been many times before.

The reason people react the way they do to whataboutism is very simple - if you are not saying that you think nothing should be done about this invasion, then what the f*** are you even saying, or why? It is automatically seen as an argument to do nothing, even if you don't feel like you mean it that way. It is also a tactic and line of argument used generously by certain "diversionists" in this manner, so it evokes an analogue reaction. As someone who is used to having opinions that are outside the mainstream, I do not take great pleasure in sharing a mindspace with people I consider hypocrites. But that's OK, that is life, you follow what you think is right, and infighting doesn't do anyone any good, only helps the greater evil.

Did anyone say nothing should be done about the invasion in this thread?
I think nobody.
Not sure what you mean here.
If it's me you're talking about I said nothing should be done IN SPORTS. I wrote I was in full agreement with the pressure being put on Russia, even though as I said, it's more likely the people who are going to suffer from it.
I just don't see a point to banning sports teams at all. Especially, as I pointed out numerous times, since it was never done to westerners who were guilty of some other shit.

 

[bluesfan94]

The reason people react the way they do to whataboutism is very simple - if you are not saying that you think nothing should be done about this invasion, then what the f*** are you even saying, or why?

This is exactly it.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

There's Palestinian players in the Israeli national team too.

So what?

 

[cgf]

The reason people react the way they do to whataboutism is very simple - if you are not saying that you think nothing should be done about this invasion, then what the f*** are you even saying, or why? It is automatically seen as an argument to do nothing, even if you don't feel like you mean it that way. It is also a tactic and line of argument used generously by certain "diversionists" in this manner, so it evokes an analogue reaction. As someone who is used to having opinions that are outside the mainstream, I do not take great pleasure in sharing a mindspace with people I consider hypocrites. But that's OK, that is life, you follow what you think is right, and infighting doesn't do anyone any good, only helps the greater evil.

In part I think it's brought up now because "in the moment" is often the best time to make changes happen, rather than when everyone has fallen back into their old routines and can just ignore the double standards that serve them. Like the way that the drive for police reform in the US has stalled the further we have gotten from the murder of George Floyd.

Or at least it's the best time to recognize that real changes need to happen. Before things go wrong is the best to actually implement changes, but it's hard to get people to act before a crisis hits...especially if they haven't yet recognized that there is something in need of changing.


And also simply because the topic is currently being discussed by people who previously had no interest in engaging on it. This isn't the first time that the hypocrisy directed towards Russian aggression has been pointed out, it's just clicking now because the topic is on most people's lips.

 

[gary69]

It's a lost cause, kudos to Havre for trying. I'd like to chip in but, again, it's a lost cause.

Russia wouldn't stop at Ukraine, obviously. They already want NATO to withdraw from all Eastern European countries. Why Norway has the right to be a Nato member, but not Eastern/Central European countries?

 

[cgf]

Russia wouldn't stop at Ukraine, obviously. They already want NATO to withdraw from all Eastern European countries. Why Norway has the right to be a Nato member, but not Eastern/Central European countries?

Why would NATO stop at Turkey and Ukraine? Why not Belarus & the city of moscow too? Everyone already knows how bloodthirsty the brits & americans are...

 

[luiginb]

Russia wouldn't stop at Ukraine, obviously. They already want NATO to withdraw from all Eastern European countries. Why Norway has the right to be a Nato member, but not Eastern/Central European countries?

Russia wants Romania out of NATO. Guess what happens if we say no.

 

[bluesfan94]

Why would NATO stop at Turkey and Ukraine? Why not Belarus & the city of moscow too? Everyone already knows how bloodthirsty the brits & americans are...

The difference is that NATO isn't invading. Countries have to ask to be part of NATO. That's a particularly specious argument.

 

[Jussi]

 

[Incubajerks]

Russia wouldn't stop at Ukraine, obviously. They already want NATO to withdraw from all Eastern European countries. Why Norway has the right to be a Nato member, but not Eastern/Central European countries?

Because, among other things, it is necessary to have a unanimous vote of the members who are already part of it and as you well should know this unanimity is only in words but not in deeds. Furthermore, Ukraine is a country that would have to intervene in an important way on its governance structure to be able to join. It is not something that can be foreseen in the short term. If you are following the events and you have a knowledge of the matter and of the situation even in the past, saying that Putin will not stop in Ukraine is quite wrong ... obviously it is a possibility, which I do not believe in today because it would mean World War III.

 

[luiginb]

Well most of you didn't believe he'd invade Ukraine either. Eastern Europeans know how much we can trust Russia. Their foreign minister declared they wouldn't invade in the morning, and at night they did.