World Cup: 2022 World Cup Qualifiers

[bluesfan94]

Every situation is different and everyone has their biases but I struggle to understand how the standard wouldn't be war crimes.

I think the standard would be the forceful invasion of a previously peaceful nation. And if you want to make the comparison to Iraq, Israel, Libya, the Balkans, anywhere else, we can do that. I'm fine comparing taking out genocidal leaders vis-a-vis taking out a leader because he wants to be part of the EU and a defensive treaty alliance.

 

[bluesfan94]

USA world lap the field. Twice. Even if the field was combined.

It depends on how you count Russia. If you count the USSR causing deaths in certain Soviet Republics (e.g. Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, etc.) then Russia runs away with it, easily. I also don't understand how foreign deaths are the only ones that matter when talking about the last 80 years. There are plenty of examples of mass amounts of domestic deaths.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Here's another example of a double standard pointed out by El Salvador's president.
Imagine a country where demonstrators asking for a discussion with their employee (head of state is their employee) and they're answered with violence and freezing their bank accounts.
I can already see the westerners tweeting about this terrible act. Macron, Johnson, Biden and others arms in the air saying that country should be respectful about democracy.
But since it happened in Canada, it's all fine and dandy. Nobody uttered a word. Macron once said demonstrations shouldn't be met with violence in South America while doing the exact same thing in France.
That kind of hypocrisy is extremely tough to swallow for those countries, as Bukele pointed out.

You're in France? And you're calling that "violence"?

 

[Evilo]

You're in France? And you're calling that "violence"?

Read the rest of my post. I called it for France too.

 

[bluesfan94]

You're in France? And you're calling that "violence"?

There's a general tendency on this corner of HF to ignore that things can be different shades of grey.

 

[Evilo]

Damn, Adidas bans sellings in Russia of their tracksuits made by Ouighours.
That'll show them !

 

[luiginb]

Ohhhh poor gopniks

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I think the standard would be the forceful invasion of a previously peaceful nation. And if you want to make the comparison to Iraq, Israel, Libya, the Balkans, anywhere else, we can do that. I'm fine comparing taking out genocidal leaders vis-a-vis taking out a leader because he wants to be part of the EU and a defensive treaty alliance.

This is completely absurd for reasons that can't be delved into without completely derailing this thread. Your biases are really showing and a godawful country like Saudi Arabia (and others) would be let completely off the hook. You must be borderline trolling at this point.

 

[bluesfan94]

This is completely absurd for reasons that can't be delved into without completely derailing this thread. Your biases are really showing and a godawful country like Saudi Arabia (and others) would be let completely off the hook. You must be borderline trolling at this point.

That's kinda my point. It's a very high standard. We've seen that was KSA has done so far hasn't been worthy of a ban by FIFA/UEFA, so constructing a standard that includes that would be pretty silly.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

That's kinda my point. It's a very high standard. We've seen that was KSA has done so far hasn't been worthy of a ban by FIFA/UEFA, so constructing a standard that includes that would be pretty silly.

That's why I'm advocating that there shouldn't really be a standard at this point. Be practical but outright banning nations is not something that should be considered, IMO.

 

[bluesfan94]

That's why I'm advocating that there shouldn't really be a standard at this point. Be practical but outright banning nations is not something that should be considered, IMO.

I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree and I think we'll have to leave it at that. I think starting a war of this nature is something that should lead to isolation. And if the answer is that we use this standard going forward rather than saying look we didn't do it in the past, then fine. Just because there may have been mistakes in the past doesn't mean we shouldn't do the right thing in the future (or, more importantly, in the present).

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree and I think we'll have to leave it at that. I think starting a war of this nature is something that should lead to isolation. And if the answer is that we use this standard going forward rather than saying look we didn't do it in the past, then fine. Just because there may have been mistakes in the past doesn't mean we shouldn't do the right thing in the future (or, more importantly, in the present).

I agree in spirit but I think this only really works if there'd be a way to have everyone start with a clean slate. That's obviously not possible when you're dealing with world affairs and various ongoing conflicts. Also, do we start considering internal oppression like North Korea, for example?

 

[bluesfan94]

I agree in spirit but I think this only really works if there'd be a way to have everyone start with a clean slate. That's obviously not possible when you're dealing with world affairs and various ongoing conflicts. Also, do we start considering internal oppression like North Korea, for example?

Yeah, it's tough and it's also tough to balance out proxy wars. But I think we've seen proxy wars are different (see, e.g., the response to totally not Russia's first invasion of Ukraine). Same with domestic issues. I'm pretty sure South Africa was suspended because of apartheid, so there's certainly some precedent. But yeah, there's plenty of domestic issues that weren't met the same way.

 

[cgf]

Is your point that because Russia is Russia, they shouldn't be punished?

The guy can't handle anyone disagreeing with him.

Right, but when there are blatant differences between situations, the standard is pretty evident. Like I said, there's plenty of room for nuance when discussing the different situations. Not everything is the same.

Yeah, I do. But I can't find the OECD data that 15,000 citizens due explicitly to Ukrainian shelling and you're being a little silly in terms of ignoring what happened in 2014 with Russia's unofficial invasion.

My point is to introduce standards that'll be applied consistently if we're going to start punishing NTs for the actions of their governments, and doing so requires recognizing the double standards that are applied to Russia.

If we're going to start drawing a line, let's figure out where it should go & draw that line.

 

[bluesfan94]

My point is to introduce standards that'll be applied consistently if we're going to start punishing NTs for the actions of their governments, and doing so requires recognizing the double standards that are applied to Russia.

If we're going to start drawing a line, let's figure out where it should go & draw that line.

Right, but we can figure out where it goes without there being double standards. That's my only point. So defaulting to what aboutisms is pretty much just throwing out red herrings

 

[luiginb]

Has any member of the Russian national team come out to condemn the invasion at this point?

 

[Evilo]

Has any member of the Russian national team come out to condemn the invasion at this point?

I don't know about football but plenty of sportsmen/women have.

 

[cgf]

Damn, Adidas bans sellings in Russia of their tracksuits made by Ouighours.
That'll show them !

You joke, but this could stop the russian army in its tracks...

 

[cgf]

Right, but we can figure out where it goes without there being double standards. That's my only point. So defaulting to what aboutisms is pretty much just throwing out red herrings

Only if we recognize the biases that still exist, which have been responsible for those double standards in the past, and actively try to counter-act them moving forward. Otherwise, you're just making yourself feel better about perpetuating the status quo.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Here's another example of a double standard pointed out by El Salvador's president.
Imagine a country where demonstrators asking for a discussion with their employee (head of state is their employee) and they're answered with violence and freezing their bank accounts.
I can already see the westerners tweeting about this terrible act. Macron, Johnson, Biden and others arms in the air saying that country should be respectful about democracy.
But since it happened in Canada, it's all fine and dandy. Nobody uttered a word. Macron once said demonstrations shouldn't be met with violence in South America while doing the exact same thing in France.
That kind of hypocrisy is extremely tough to swallow for those countries, as Bukele pointed out.

What Canada did is freeze funds that were mostly built from donations from outside the country... a good portion of which came from very shady groups. I mean, I understand your point, but get your facts straight.

Also, the protest has been allowed to go on for a long time and policemen have took selfies with the protesters.

The narrative around the poor persecuted truckers is a false one.

 

[Evilo]

What Canada did is freeze funds that were mostly built from donations from outside the country... a good portion of which came from very shady groups. I mean, I understand your point, but get your facts straight.

Also, the protest has been allowed to go on for a long time and policemen have took selfies with the protesters.

The narrative around the poor persecuted truckers is a false one.

No the narrative is that a leader of a "free country" is threatening his citizens to freeze their banks accounts, delete their permits, etc...
Shady donations my ass.

 

[cgf]

No the narrative is that a leader of a "free country" is threatening his citizens to freeze their banks accounts, delete their permits, etc...
Shady donations my ass.

Canceling permits and freezing foreign funds coming into specific groups that are causing public disorder isn't exactly unheard of in democratic societies.

You can't have a society without people compromising on some "freedoms"

 

[Scandale du Jour]

No the narrative is that a leader of a "free country" is threatening his citizens to freeze their banks accounts, delete their permits, etc...
Shady donations my ass.

Sorry, but you have absolutely no f***ing idea what you are talking about.

Many of the leaders of those protests are well-known alt-right activists. The original movement was fine, the way it was recuperated by these groups is not. More than 65% of the donations they accumulated came from OUTSIDE the country. That is what was seized, the donations. Donations that, as I have said, came from a lot of shady sources.

I am not fan of the PM (hate his father even more), far from it, but you are just spewing garbage right now. The emergency measures would have been overkill, I agree. But acting like these protesters are "victims" is a joke.

 

[Evilo]

Canceling permits and freezing foreign funds coming into specific groups that are causing public disorder isn't exactly unheard of in democratic societies.

You can't have a society without people compromising on some "freedoms"

Public disorder needs to be defined here.

 

[Evilo]

Sorry, but you have absolutely no f***ing idea what you are talking about.

Many of the leaders of those protests are well-known alt-right activists. The original movement was fine, the way it was recuperated by these groups is not. More than 65% of the donations they accumulated came from OUTSIDE the country. That is what was seized, the donations. Donations that, as I have said, came from a lot of shady sources.

I am not fan of the PM (hate his father even more), far from it, but you are just spewing garbage right now. The emergency measures would have been overkill, I agree. But acting like these protesters are "victims" is a joke.

Where have I talked about the victims?
You're making stuff up here.
I'm repeating that a leader of a free democratic country is using those threats on his own people.
I don't necessarily agree with the truckers here.

If a south American country was doing the same, Trudeau would point the finger. That's the hypocrisy I'm talking about here.