2021 Seattle Expansion Thread

[TheImpatientPanther]

Matheson vs Yandle

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

View attachment 312235
Matheson vs Yandle

Interpreting the fancy stats is subjective to some degree but imo Yandle is the worse player especially when you consider his price tag should convey an above average ability to conduct defensive duties. Yandle lives off from PP time and if he doesn't receive prime PP duties for whatever reason including that the opposition doesn't get penalties Yandle is just another bottom pairing dman in the same category with Kindl. If the Cats manage to proceed to the playoffs, Yandle will draw major attention from since he continuously cracks even under slight pressure. Rather dump Yandle to Seattle but there's probably no way to do that so he'll end up staying in the roster, dragging this team down.

 

[RogerRoger]

Thanks for the chart mate!

 

[KW]

Does Yandle have a NMC or NTC? Expansion pick isn’t a trade, but it is a move, I presume. Everyone keeps saying it’s NMC, so I’ll assume that’s right.

If Yandle was left unprotected, I doubt Seattle would pick him anyway. So we basically have to waste one position on Yandle for two reasons that both suck. One, we must do so even though we don’t want him, only because of the NMC. Two, if there was no NMC, and we didn’t protect him, we’d still be stuck with him, because no one else wants him at that price either.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Interpreting the fancy stats is subjective to some degree but imo Yandle is the worse player especially when you consider his price tag should convey an above average ability to conduct defensive duties. Yandle lives off from PP time and if he doesn't receive prime PP duties for whatever reason including that the opposition doesn't get penalties Yandle is just another bottom pairing dman in the same category with Kindl. If the Cats manage to proceed to the playoffs, Yandle will draw major attention from since he continuously cracks even under slight pressure. Rather dump Yandle to Seattle but there's probably no way to do that so he'll end up staying in the roster, dragging this team down.

For me, Yandle's defense gets glossed over too much by some for his offense. The amount of OZ starts he gets and his EGA vs his QOC is still really bad and as you said at his AAV, he should be closer to $4 to 4.5 million but you always overpay free agents.
I'm fine with him on the team for the rest of this year but you have to look to move him before the ED, probably this off-season. May be easier to move with only 2 years left though end of next year but not sure when the cutoff date is for protection?

One would assume Yandle would waive for BOS, Chara will be retired by then and it's unclear if Krug will price himself out. They don't get generate a lot of offense from their D-men and they protect Yandle, McAvoy and Carlo in the expansion draft.
I don't get the Yandle is a 60pt guy so we NEED him, as you said, take away his PP numbers and he averages 23pts 5 on 5 over his career.

With extra PP time, Ekblad could be a 50+pt guy and Weegar could become a 30ish pt guy.
Matheson has shown ability to be a 30ish point guy and back on pace for around 25 this year, with very limited PP.
Stralman on pace for around 30 and majority is 5 on 5.
Stillman could probably hit 20-25pts if up here all year

Why can't Huberdeau take Yandle's spot on the PP?

Huberdeau roaming or dishing from blue line, Ekblad/Tippett on off wing for one time, Barkov near goal line, Dadonov in slot and one of Vatrano, Connolly, Trocheck or Tippett/Ekblad as the extra man.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

For me, Yandle's defense gets glossed over too much by some for his offense. The amount of OZ starts he gets and his EGA vs his QOC is still really bad and as you said at his AAV, he should be closer to $4 to 4.5 million but you always overpay free agents.
I'm fine with him on the team for the rest of this year but you have to look to move him before the ED, probably this off-season. May be easier to move with only 2 years left though end of next year but not sure when the cutoff date is for protection?

One would assume Yandle would waive for BOS, Chara will be retired by then and it's unclear if Krug will price himself out. They don't get generate a lot of offense from their D-men and they protect Yandle, McAvoy and Carlo in the expansion draft.
I don't get the Yandle is a 60pt guy so we NEED him, as you said, take away his PP numbers and he averages 23pts 5 on 5 over his career.

With extra PP time, Ekblad could be a 50+pt guy and Weegar could become a 30ish pt guy.
Matheson has shown ability to be a 30ish point guy and back on pace for around 25 this year, with very limited PP.
Stralman on pace for around 30 and majority is 5 on 5.
Stillman could probably hit 20-25pts if up here all year

Why can't Huberdeau take Yandle's spot on the PP?

Huberdeau roaming or dishing from blue line, Ekblad/Tippett on off wing for one time, Barkov near goal line, Dadonov in slot and one of Vatrano, Connolly, Trocheck or Tippett/Ekblad as the extra man.

In a vacuum one could make the case for Yandle being a crucial part of the PP, but with the Cats you have enough talent at defense so there's really no need to rely Yandle that heavily especially when he isn't that reliable on the PP e.g. every once in a while his drop passes are tape2tape passes to an opposing player.

Even tho Math gets a lot flak for valid and invalid reasons he's developed during this season and seems to care about the outcome. On the other hand, Yandle is just too comfortable to develop his game and he sees no reason to do so since he's getting paid top dolla' for showing up mostly for the PP duties. I think these purely offensively oriented dmen are an achilles heel for every team that has them on their payroll. They look like maestros on the backend when their team can keep the puck possession and drive the game towards o-zone, but whenever they don't catch lightning in a bottle then they can look absolutely garbage. imo Yandle is on par with guys like Kindl but since they get force fed PP time constantly their deficiencies don't show up until the fancy stats reports have been churned out of the matrix printer.

 

[I am not exposed]

For me, Yandle's defense gets glossed over too much by some for his offense. The amount of OZ starts he gets and his EGA vs his QOC is still really bad and as you said at his AAV, he should be closer to $4 to 4.5 million but you always overpay free agents.
I'm fine with him on the team for the rest of this year but you have to look to move him before the ED, probably this off-season. May be easier to move with only 2 years left though end of next year but not sure when the cutoff date is for protection?

One would assume Yandle would waive for BOS, Chara will be retired by then and it's unclear if Krug will price himself out. They don't get generate a lot of offense from their D-men and they protect Yandle, McAvoy and Carlo in the expansion draft.
I don't get the Yandle is a 60pt guy so we NEED him, as you said, take away his PP numbers and he averages 23pts 5 on 5 over his career.

With extra PP time, Ekblad could be a 50+pt guy and Weegar could become a 30ish pt guy.
Matheson has shown ability to be a 30ish point guy and back on pace for around 25 this year, with very limited PP.
Stralman on pace for around 30 and majority is 5 on 5.
Stillman could probably hit 20-25pts if up here all year

Why can't Huberdeau take Yandle's spot on the PP?

Huberdeau roaming or dishing from blue line, Ekblad/Tippett on off wing for one time, Barkov near goal line, Dadonov in slot and one of Vatrano, Connolly, Trocheck or Tippett/Ekblad as the extra man.

Just a year or so ago, I'm sure you started a poll asking who the best Panthers defenseman of all time is, and Yandle was one of your front runners! Looks like you've changed your opinion of him quite drastically in the last year or so.

 

[I am not exposed]

For me, Yandle's defense gets glossed over too much by some for his offense. The amount of OZ starts he gets and his EGA vs his QOC is still really bad and as you said at his AAV, he should be closer to $4 to 4.5 million but you always overpay free agents.
I'm fine with him on the team for the rest of this year but you have to look to move him before the ED, probably this off-season. May be easier to move with only 2 years left though end of next year but not sure when the cutoff date is for protection?

One would assume Yandle would waive for BOS, Chara will be retired by then and it's unclear if Krug will price himself out. They don't get generate a lot of offense from their D-men and they protect Yandle, McAvoy and Carlo in the expansion draft.
I don't get the Yandle is a 60pt guy so we NEED him, as you said, take away his PP numbers and he averages 23pts 5 on 5 over his career.

With extra PP time, Ekblad could be a 50+pt guy and Weegar could become a 30ish pt guy.
Matheson has shown ability to be a 30ish point guy and back on pace for around 25 this year, with very limited PP.
Stralman on pace for around 30 and majority is 5 on 5.
Stillman could probably hit 20-25pts if up here all year

Why can't Huberdeau take Yandle's spot on the PP?

Huberdeau roaming or dishing from blue line, Ekblad/Tippett on off wing for one time, Barkov near goal line, Dadonov in slot and one of Vatrano, Connolly, Trocheck or Tippett/Ekblad as the extra man.

Because Yandle is better in that spot than Huberdeau?

 

[RainingRats]

You guys are really underrating his offense. He’s 6th overall in points among d-men. 2nd in assists! It has to be said again. That’s very impressive.

Sure he gets a lot of points on the PP but guess what, good special teams are key to winning in this league. A PP goal is worth as much as an ES goal.

You can’t just swap out an elite PP qb and expect to have things be good enough. Do people forget that our PP struggled before Yandle? And our defensive woes are not Yandle specific.

Give us a stay at home d-man who contributes little offense in his place and we still have GA issues with a less effective PP. Our PP is one of the main reasons we are winning games.

 

[RainingRats]

In a vacuum one could make the case for Yandle being a crucial part of the PP, but with the Cats you have enough talent at defense so there's really no need to rely Yandle that heavily especially when he isn't that reliable on the PP e.g. every once in a while his drop passes are tape2tape passes to an opposing player.

Even tho Math gets a lot flak for valid and invalid reasons he's developed during this season and seems to care about the outcome. On the other hand, Yandle is just too comfortable to develop his game and he sees no reason to do so since he's getting paid top dolla' for showing up mostly for the PP duties. I think these purely offensively oriented dmen are an achilles heel for every team that has them on their payroll. They look like maestros on the backend when their team can keep the puck possession and drive the game towards o-zone, but whenever they don't catch lightning in a bottle then they can look absolutely garbage. imo Yandle is on par with guys like Kindl but since they get force fed PP time constantly their deficiencies don't show up until the fancy stats reports have been churned out of the matrix printer.

Lmao, ya, he’s just like Kindl

you guys are discounting the importance of a good PP and act like anyone can QB it.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Just a year or so ago, I'm sure you started a poll asking who the best Panthers defenseman of all time is, and Yandle was one of your front runners! Looks like you've changed your opinion of him quite drastically in the last year or so.

Think that was always a subtle jab at Pumacon and Soupy's love for Campbell but hopefully I did say best offensive defenseman of all time? To say he's our best all around defenseman seems foggy for me, Ekblad has been my main stay for that the last few years. Feel free to bump it or show me the quote, never scared of admitting I'm wrong around here. A lot can change in a year or two. We have way more offensive depth on the team now, don't think it'd be as big of a hole to fill now as when Yandle first showed up.

Because Yandle is better in that spot than Huberdeau?

You're saying what Yandle does is somehow not in Huberdeau's arsenal? We haven't tried Huberdeau there so how do we know?
The main component for Yandle's position on the PP is passing and maybe cycling off the puck to another player along the blue line. Huberdeau does the same thing on the side wall.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

I don't think the PP would suffer much with Ekblad being a QB. He doesn't have quite the same vision/passing as Yandle but he brings a better shot. Mostly the PP would just look different.

 

[letsgrowcactus]

Re: Yandle, one thing not talked about is his role in the locker room as a more experienced guy, one of the leaders and that overall goofy attitude... I mean it's just my perception but he kinda seems like everyone's favorite guy and the guy people turn to? From the top of my head, there was the Weegar-fake!Acciari prank - of course Weegar texts Yandle for advice when "Acciari" is acting like a prick! And I vaguely recall more guys saying that they went to Yandle for advice and stuff.

Like, the team as a whole is more "grown up" than a few years back, and what the hell I know, maybe I'm reading too much into this? But given how often we talked about having a good locker room etc. a few years back, it seems worth mentioning.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

You guys are really underrating his offense. He’s 6th overall in points among d-men. 2nd in assists! It has to be said again. That’s very impressive.

Sure he gets a lot of points on the PP but guess what, good special teams are key to winning in this league. A PP goal is worth as much as an ES goal.

You can’t just swap out an elite PP qb and expect to have things be good enough. Do people forget that our PP struggled before Yandle? And our defensive woes are not Yandle specific.

Give us a stay at home d-man who contributes little offense in his place and we still have GA issues with a less effective PP. Our PP is one of the main reasons we are winning games.

So you think the Leafs will re-sign Barrie then? They should let Muzzin walk and keep Barrie?
They are built very similar to us, not cap per position but doubtful they will re-up a comparable player in Yandle.
It's only the last two years Barkov and Huberdeau have taken off on the PP but Yandle has been here 4 years. Add in Hoffman and Dadonov and you can see why.
Think you're over-valuing a defenseman who is really good at passing on the man advantage. Don't know why moving Huberdeau from side wall to blue line is all of a sudden going to implode the other skill we have on the PP.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Re: Yandle, one thing not talked about is his role in the locker room as a more experienced guy, one of the leaders and that overall goofy attitude... I mean it's just my perception but he kinda seems like everyone's favorite guy and the guy people turn to? From the top of my head, there was the Weegar-fake!Acciari prank - of course Weegar texts Yandle for advice when "Acciari" is acting like a prick! And I vaguely recall more guys saying that they went to Yandle for advice and stuff.

Like, the team as a whole is more "grown up" than a few years back, and what the hell I know, maybe I'm reading too much into this? But given how often we talked about having a good locker room etc. a few years back, it seems worth mentioning.

This is the only reason I'd have a hard time letting Yandle go, this is his most undervalued aspect on the team, the locker room guy. He keeps the mood light and always joking and love that part about him but winning and succeeding would be fun with or without him no?
He definitely has a leadership role here but as we've seen, this team is led by Barkov, Huberdeau, Trocheck and Ekblad for the most part.
I don't hate Yandle but just thinking of how our offense is built now and long term (Tippett, Borgstrom, Denisenko) and how we should focus on building a big, mobile D who can bring enough offense but just as focused on the defense side of things.

 

[I am not exposed]

Think that was always a subtle jab at Pumacon and Soupy's love for Campbell but hopefully I did say best offensive defenseman of all time? To say he's our best all around defenseman seems foggy for me, Ekblad has been my main stay for that the last few years. Feel free to bump it or show me the quote, never scared of admitting I'm wrong around here. A lot can change in a year or two. We have way more offensive depth on the team now, don't think it'd be as big of a hole to fill now as when Yandle first showed up.



You're saying what Yandle does is somehow not in Huberdeau's arsenal? We haven't tried Huberdeau there so how do we know?
The main component for Yandle's position on the PP is passing and maybe cycling off the puck to another player along the blue line. Huberdeau does the same thing on the side wall.

Perhaps that was it. I hope that was it! haha.

I like Yandle and think he is underappreciated by a lot of Florida fans. Thankfully RainingRats is making some excellent points in this thread which sum up how I feel about the situation.

 

[KW]

My opinion: Yandle’s PP points are a less important plus (because they’re more replaceable) than his gaffes are a more important minus (because only Matheson can rival him and that’s just part of the time).

 

[Crossbar]

If you think about it, it's amazing we haven't been scored on shorthanded more times. Dads, Huby, Hoff and Yands all on the ice at the same time and the most defensively responsible guy out of everyone, Barky, is the furthest away from being able to backcheck. On top of that, Yands is usually all by himself at the top of the umbrella, that's a lot of pressure.

Until one of our other d-man can show they can run it as efficiently as Yands can, I don't want to take a risk. Keep Yands with Brownie as they are both currently our 2nd and 3rd best plus/minus d-men. Ek has done some good things on the PP and has the skill set, but it's usually after the 1st unit has already worn down one or both of the other team's PK units and our 2nd PP unit are stepping on the ice nice and fresh.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Perhaps that was it. I hope that was it! haha.

I like Yandle and think he is underappreciated by a lot of Florida fans. Thankfully RainingRats is making some excellent points in this thread which sum up how I feel about the situation.

Not saying Yandle isn't good at what he does on the PP or that's not useful to the team anymore but it's more about fit and build for the team going forward. He's had a great 4 years here as the PPQB and has built long-term friendships but we may be able to shed some much needed cap, promote within with Stillman and give Ekblad the chance, who has averaged 5 goals and 10pts over his career on the PP. The strategy can change and we've seen recently that moving the puck down lower to the triangle offense of Barkov, Huberdeau and Dadonov works as well.
Definitely hear both sides here but don't see how he stays past the expansion draft and would hate to see us lose a 1st or a young budding defenseman in Weegar or Stillman to protect him.

 

[RainingRats]

So you think the Leafs will re-sign Barrie then? They should let Muzzin walk and keep Barrie?
They are built very similar to us, not cap per position but doubtful they will re-up a comparable player in Yandle.
It's only the last two years Barkov and Huberdeau have taken off on the PP but Yandle has been here 4 years. Add in Hoffman and Dadonov and you can see why.
Think you're over-valuing a defenseman who is really good at passing on the man advantage. Don't know why moving Huberdeau from side wall to blue line is all of a sudden going to implode the other skill we have on the PP.

Leafs have nothing to do with us.

you seem to discount getting points on the PP as if it’s easy to QB it. It’s not and a lot of teams struggle. Again, he’s second in the league in assists for d-men. That’s elite!

We want to give up an elite puck moving d-man bc people exaggerate his defensive lapses. Hes not only getting PP points but he gets them 5 on 5 too.

He’s not going to be a shut down guy. If he was he’s a franchise #1 d-man.

we need offense from the blue line too. Only Ekblad can provide reliable offense and is taking on tougher defensive responsibilities. And you want more than one guy providing offense from the d.

We are losing at least one of Hoffman or Dadonov. PP could take a big step back next year if we lose 2/5 guys from first unit.

 

[BeezKnees]

Think best option is to eventually trade Yandle to save cap room and not be forced to protect him for the draft. I could see Tallon being dumb again and protecting Ek, Weegar, Stillman AND matheson, doing 4-4-1. Forwards being Barky, Huby and two of Tro/Dad/Borgstrom

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

Leafs have nothing to do with us.

you seem to discount getting points on the PP as if it’s easy to QB it. It’s not and a lot of teams struggle. Again, he’s second in the league in assists for d-men. That’s elite!

We want to give up an elite puck moving d-man bc people exaggerate his defensive lapses. Hes not only getting PP points but he gets them 5 on 5 too.

He’s not going to be a shut down guy. If he was he’s a franchise #1 d-man.

we need offense from the blue line too. Only Ekblad can provide reliable offense and is taking on tougher defensive responsibilities. And you want more than one guy providing offense from the d.

We are losing at least one of Hoffman or Dadonov. PP could take a big step back next year if we lose 2/5 guys from first unit.

That's a great disney fairy tale of tip-toeing around the bottom line which is that teams that employ high roller PP specialists whose net effect is negative do not win big. If the Cats someday, somehow manage their way into the playoffs, Yandle's deficiencies will be under the limelight coz it doesn't take a genius to coach the opposing team to find considerable success via applying some extra pressure to dmen who can't handle even the regular season d-zone duties. Guys like Yandle get moved all the time: Barrie, Shattenkirk, Subban, Hamilton. DougieH is ofc the exception in a sense that he could revamp his game with the Canes from an offensively minded dman into a two-way threat which Yandle is incapable of doing.

PP ain't gonna take a big hit. Yandle doesn't even get the puck into the o-zone during the PP. Even an minor league rookie could skate couple of strides and execute a drop-pass which ends up to the opponent 10% of the time. Honestly I'm not seeing what exactly is that +$6mil PP excellence is which e.g. Weegar or Ek can't replicate. I wouldn't have trouble with Yandle as a 3rd pairing plug with a $4mil price tag who can be buried in the salary structure if and when needed. If Weegar would inherit his PP minutes, you'd see Weegs hit 50pts easily and save a bunch in salary which can be spent elsewhere.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Leafs have nothing to do with us.

you seem to discount getting points on the PP as if it’s easy to QB it. It’s not and a lot of teams struggle. Again, he’s second in the league in assists for d-men. That’s elite!

We want to give up an elite puck moving d-man bc people exaggerate his defensive lapses. Hes not only getting PP points but he gets them 5 on 5 too.

He’s not going to be a shut down guy. If he was he’s a franchise #1 d-man.

we need offense from the blue line too. Only Ekblad can provide reliable offense and is taking on tougher defensive responsibilities. And you want more than one guy providing offense from the d.

We are losing at least one of Hoffman or Dadonov. PP could take a big step back next year if we lose 2/5 guys from first unit.

Yandle is on pace for 33 pts on the PP this year, currently at 20 right now. He averages 27pts on the PP over his 4 years here but only average 18pts the first two years on the PP, why the sudden uptick to 39pts last year? You don't think Ekblad could add 8-10pts to his normal 5 goal, 10pt average? If anything, Ekblad has become more mobile with his puck handling and is often driving the net, shooting or setting up plays in the OZ a lot more. The ANA top cheese goal over Gibson sticks out to me.

We can use Ekblad on the PP more with other guys coming up and taking PK duties away from him. Matheson, Stralman and Stillman look to be key guys on that front.
As pointed out above, we have pretty good offense from defense 5 on 5.

Ekblad - 5 goals, on pace for 50 ish pts without any #1 PP time
Matheson - 6 goals, 30 ish pt guy if he stays on top pairing next year.
Weegar - 3 goals, on pace for 27 pts in only 61 games this year, 30-35 pts doesn't seem unattainable over 82 games.
Stralman - 4 goals, on pace for 30pts this year
Stillman - 20pts next year?

We don't have to score as many PP goals if we defend a little better, we've got way better at scoring 5 on 5. As I said, open to him here the rest of this year or next but he should be moved before expansion draft as we need his protection slot for someone else. Do you not agree Huberdeau could do some of what Yandle does on the PP?

 

[I am not exposed]

That's a great disney fairy tale of tip-toeing around the bottom line which is that teams that employ high roller PP specialists whose net effect is negative do not win big. If the Cats someday, somehow manage their way into the playoffs, Yandle's deficiencies will be under the limelight coz it doesn't take a genius to coach the opposing team to find considerable success via applying some extra pressure to dmen who can't handle even the regular season d-zone duties. Guys like Yandle get moved all the time: Barrie, Shattenkirk, Subban, Hamilton. DougieH is ofc the exception in a sense that he could revamp his game with the Canes from an offensively minded dman into a two-way threat which Yandle is incapable of doing.

PP ain't gonna take a big hit. Yandle doesn't even get the puck into the o-zone during the PP. Even an minor league rookie could skate couple of strides and execute a drop-pass which ends up to the opponent 10% of the time. Honestly I'm not seeing what exactly is that +$6mil PP excellence is which e.g. Weegar or Ek can't replicate. I wouldn't have trouble with Yandle as a 3rd pairing plug with a $4mil price tag who can be buried in the salary structure if and when needed. If Weegar would inherit his PP minutes, you'd see Weegs hit 50pts easily and save a bunch in salary which can be spent elsewhere.

I like Weegar and all, and for a 7th rounder, he's been one hell of a find. But easily hit 50 points!

 

[Dread Clawz]

Sacrificing some picks I'm okay with as long as we don't go crazy with it (wouldn't move a 1st for example, or one of our top prospects). But if Seattle's too greedy, don't try to be clever; just take the loss. Too many teams screwed themselves in the previous expansion draft by trying to keep their guys, us included. Let's not repeat the same mistake with Seattle.

Yeah exactly. I'd do a 2nd and prospects.