Speculation: 2021-22 Sharks Roster Discussion Part XI

[Hodge]

They intended to compete for the playoffs so it's too big a risk to go in with his salary slot not producing in the top 6. They have to jettison him somehow without retaining more than 1mil so they can use that money somewhere else to improve scoring. At this point he doesn't generate scoring enough for his salary and the track record is getting long. Time to go IMO.

MEV buyout is twice as long and doesn't provide as much benefit in to of the important years. I'm fine if they do it but it'll take more than that to generate cap space for needed additions.

Who are you signing for $3.7 million who's guaranteed to score more than a half point per game?

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

If I'm the new Sharks management, I'm canning Boughner (obv) and bringing in a college coach or someone with experience with young, creative players. With Reimer and Khakonen in nets, the team can absolutely lean more on offense than play this boring and offense-averse system.

With a coach like this in place for a few seasons, the team can better transition to a younger game where skill wins games. COL, CAR, FLA, TOR, and other top teams win with skill and creativity, and while the Sharks certainly don't have the rosters those teams have, if they start developing their young guys in a system that highlights their skills, the team overall will be in a better position 1-3 years down the line.

Plus, a system like that will better make use of Karlsson and Burns. And even if that system creates too many defensive problems, it may boost the trade value of Burns or Couture or whomever may want/need to be moved.

The dude knows how to coach young players. Actually he was pretty great at it. The problem over the last 3 season has been talent (particularly scoring talent) all along. Not coaching.

"Boughner headed a new ownership group in purchasing the then-struggling Windsor Spitfires in February 2006. He has been head coach of the team, as well as President & C.E.O., except during the 2010–11 season when Boughner served as an assistant coach with the Columbus Blue Jackets.[2][3]

In 2007–2008, he coached the Spitfires to the second best regular season finish in their history with 94 points, and was honored as OHL and CHL Coach of the Year.[4] On April 15, 2009, Boughner was named the OHL's coach of the year for the second year in a row.

On May 8, 2009, he coached the Windsor Spitfires to their first OHL championship in 21 years after finishing the regular season with a league best 115 points. Also, that same year went on to win Windsor's first Memorial Cup, becoming the first team to lose the first two games of the tournament and still win the Cup. Boughner's Spitfires successfully defended their Memorial Cup championship in 2010.

On June 24, 2009, he was selected by Hockey Canada to coach the National Under-18 hockey team at the Memorial of Ivan Hlinka Tournament. The team went on to dominate by going undefeated and won gold at the tournament."

 

[tiburon12]

The dude knows how to coach young players. Actually he was pretty great at it. The problem over the last 3 season has been talent (particularly scoring talent) all along. Not coaching.

"Boughner headed a new ownership group in purchasing the then-struggling Windsor Spitfires in February 2006. He has been head coach of the team, as well as President & C.E.O., except during the 2010–11 season when Boughner served as an assistant coach with the Columbus Blue Jackets.[2][3]

In 2007–2008, he coached the Spitfires to the second best regular season finish in their history with 94 points, and was honored as OHL and CHL Coach of the Year.[4] On April 15, 2009, Boughner was named the OHL's coach of the year for the second year in a row.

On May 8, 2009, he coached the Windsor Spitfires to their first OHL championship in 21 years after finishing the regular season with a league best 115 points. Also, that same year went on to win Windsor's first Memorial Cup, becoming the first team to lose the first two games of the tournament and still win the Cup. Boughner's Spitfires successfully defended their Memorial Cup championship in 2010.

On June 24, 2009, he was selected by Hockey Canada to coach the National Under-18 hockey team at the Memorial of Ivan Hlinka Tournament. The team went on to dominate by going undefeated and won gold at the tournament."

Citing awards and accolades from 10+ years ago when the game was very different doesn't help his case.

In contrast, here's a quote from an article about him being fired from the cats

Boughner was hesitant to provide talented prospects such as Henrik Borgstrom and Denis Malgin with necessary playing time. As a result, the development of Florida’s top prospects was greatly hindered.

Furthermore, Boughner often provided unproductive veterans like Riley Sheahan, Troy Brouwer, and Jamie McGinn with more minutes and playing time than the younger players in the system.

In essence, by favoring the older veterans over the talented youngsters, Boughner sacrificed speed over grit and evidently failed.

Ultimately, Bob was viewed as a somewhat stubborn head coach who frequently struggled to make necessary adjustments during losing streaks and in the middle of a game.

Sound familiar?

Boughner is a defensive coach. He ran the D on the Sharks as an assistant and is running the team defensively now. Regardless of whether he is a good coach for young players (i think he isn't), I was offering an idea for an offensive and skill-adept coach, which Boughner demonstrably isn't. There is no counter argument to that.

Small sample size, I know, but look what Marty St Louis is doing in MTL and how he's working with their younger skilled players. We need that for the future of this franchise.

 

[Hodge]

Citing awards and accolades from 10+ years ago when the game was very different doesn't help his case.

In contrast, here's a quote from an article about him being fired from the cats



Sound familiar?

Boughner is a defensive coach. He ran the D on the Sharks as an assistant and is running the team defensively now. Regardless of whether he is a good coach for young players (i think he isn't), I was offering an idea for an offensive and skill-adept coach, which Boughner demonstrably isn't. There is no counter argument to that.

Small sample size, I know, but look what Marty St Louis is doing in MTL and how he's working with their younger skilled players. We need that for the future of this franchise.

That "article" from a fan blog is a perfect example of how hockey fans constantly overvalue their own prospects. Guess what? Boughner was completely right not to give Borgstrom and Malgin more playing time considering they flamed out of other organizations after leaving Florida and will never have NHL careers. Meanwhile Riley Sheahan is still in the show because he's a useful bottom six center that every team could use. Coaches by and large know what they're doing and are not going to risk losing games by playing an obviously less effective veteran over a young player who's legitimately good.

 

[sharks_dynasty]

I’m wondering if John Madden will get promoted to Head Coach if Boughner is let go.

 

[OrrNumber4]

That "article" from a fan blog is a perfect example of how hockey fans constantly overvalue their own prospects. Guess what? Boughner was completely right not to give Borgstrom and Malgin more playing time considering they flamed out of other organizations after leaving Florida and will never have NHL careers. Meanwhile Riley Sheahan is still in the show because he's a useful bottom six center that every team could use. Coaches by and large know what they're doing and are not going to risk losing games by playing an obviously less effective veteran over a young player who's legitimately good.

Don't you see that if not for Boughner, Borgstrom and Malgin would be NHL players? He didn't immediately cater to their every whim, hence they got dejected and couldn't find the will to become multi-millionaires...

 

[Hodge]

Don't you see that if not for Boughner, Borgstrom and Malgin would be NHL players? He didn't immediately cater to their every whim, hence they got dejected and couldn't find the will to become multi-millionaires...

The fact that Joel Quenneville, one of the greatest coaches in NHL history, came in right after Boughner and also saw no value in Borgstrom and Malgin just means he and Boughner were both wrong.

 

[WTFetus]

Guess it's always been bad luck and bad rosters for Boughner his entire coaching career, since he's accomplished nothing in both the OHL and NHL since his two championships that were carried by Taylor Hall.

 

[Hodge]

Guess it's always been bad luck and bad rosters for Boughner his entire coaching career, since he's accomplished nothing in both the OHL and NHL since his two championships that were carried by Taylor Hall.

We're talking about a sample size of four full seasons as head coach (including a 56 game season). His Sharks teams have had objectively awful rosters. Both years with the Panthers he barely missed the playoffs despite awful goaltending.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

Dean Lombardi GM. Marco Sturm head coach.

 

[one2gamble]

Dean Lombardi GM. Marco Sturm head coach.

I'm good with 50% of that statement

 

[themelkman]

I’m wondering if John Madden will get promoted to Head Coach if Boughner is let go.

Please no.

 

[Jargon]

Is Monahan totally worthless? Like, would Monahan at 1 million for a 3rd line center be worth it for a year or is he terrible?

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Citing awards and accolades from 10+ years ago when the game was very different doesn't help his case.

In contrast, here's a quote from an article about him being fired from the cats



Sound familiar?

Boughner is a defensive coach. He ran the D on the Sharks as an assistant and is running the team defensively now. Regardless of whether he is a good coach for young players (i think he isn't), I was offering an idea for an offensive and skill-adept coach, which Boughner demonstrably isn't. There is no counter argument to that.

Small sample size, I know, but look what Marty St Louis is doing in MTL and how he's working with their younger skilled players. We need that for the future of this franchise.

It's hockey, the sport wasn't that different 10 years ago. 20 years ago? Sure. 30 years ago? Definitely. But 10? Not really. Defense hasn't become optional as it was when I was a kid.

Looks like he was right about not playing either of those players. Both appear to be fringe NHLers at best. Also he's about to set the Sharks record for rookie playing in a season at 19. All this complaining about him not playing young guys is ridiculous. Yeah he's a defensive coach. Also coached an offensive defensemen to a Norris season and the most productive offensive years of his career. Give him actual scoring talent and he'll adjust the system appropriately.

As far as Montreal and St Louis... Cole Caulfield is scoring. He already had scoring ability. Changing coaches won't turn Sasha, Labanc, Gegor, Weatherby, Balcers etc into amazing scorers. BTW, the Habs lost 8-4 yesterday and have been regularly getting pounded. If they don't play better defense soon he'll be out before you know it. Bob has had the Sharks at least competitive in the overwhelming majority of games this season and it's been clear to all the guys covering the team that even a little goal scoring would make a night and day difference in this teams win loss record.

All coaches preach defensive commitment even if you don't think they do. They are sometime lenient with superstars and guys who have proven they can put up tons of points. Who other that the top 4 scorers on the Sharks is worthy of that type of freedom? Burns and EK65 also. Other than the top 4 forward and those 2 D, no one. That means the team has to play a heavy defensive system which hasn't hurt those other players ability to be creative and produce offense.

The greatest coach in the history of the sport made some of the greatest to ever play committed to defense and that's how they won their Cups.

Sorry man, I just don't agree with you at all on any of this. You hate bob and that's fine, but your assertions aren't supported by facts.

BTW, where is your article from? Some fan blog? You might as well have quoted someone bitching on the panther part of this website. Just as credible. My quote was simply things that actually happened not opinions of some bitter fan.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Dean Lombardi GM. Marco Sturm head coach.

Do not want Dean back. Too conservative and terrible draft record. Pretty sure his successful LA teams were drafted prior to him taking over.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Guess it's always been bad luck and bad rosters for Boughner his entire coaching career, since he's accomplished nothing in both the OHL and NHL since his two championships that were carried by Taylor Hall.

I thought he couldn't coach offensive players though? Which is it? How are Timo, Hertl, Meier and Couture doing this season offensively? Only guys with legit NHL scoring skill are producing on the roster. The majority of the rest are 3rd and 4th line players at best and that's after they mature into consistent NHL players. EK65 was having a renaissance season offensively prior to being injured.Burns despite his brutal deployment has 48 points in 74 games.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Don't you see that if not for Boughner, Borgstrom and Malgin would be NHL players? He didn't immediately cater to their every whim, hence they got dejected and couldn't find the will to become multi-millionaires...

Exactly...

 

[ChompChomp]

Dean Lombardi GM. Marco Sturm head coach.

Ned Colletti GM. Marco Sturm head coach.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Do not want Dean back. Too conservative and terrible draft record. Pretty sure his successful LA teams were drafted prior to him taking over.

Really? Lombardi had some really nice drafts as the Sharks's GM...

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Really? Lombardi had some really nice drafts as the Sharks's GM...

Like that all Finnish one? That was him right? I could be misremembering... Didn't he take Victor Kozlov at #6 in an insanely deep draft? For my money he was mostly terrible. Had a couple good picks here and there but overall some huge misses with great draft position. Flat out got lucky that Nabby turned into something. Regardless, I want someone new and not a actual sharks retread. Too many other options that seem more enticing IMO. In the end though as long as it's not someone like Fenton or Chiarelli.

 

[WTFetus]

I thought he couldn't coach offensive players though? Which is it? How are Timo, Hertl, Meier and Couture doing this season offensively? Only guys with legit NHL scoring skill on the roster. The majority of the rest are 3rd and 4th line players at best and that's after they mature into consistent NHL players.

Couture and Hertl are producing around as expected and similar to their previous seasons. Meier is having a career year but it should be put into perspective considering league scoring is ridiculously high this season. Even though he is having a career year, he isn't even in the Top 30 for point totals in the league.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Couture and Hertl are producing around as expected and similar to their previous seasons. Meier is having a career year but it should be put into perspective considering league scoring is ridiculously high this season. Even though he is having a career year, he isn't even in the Top 30 for point totals in the league.

But it's the coaching over the lack of talent? Sorry, not buying it. Timo is 32nd and in the top 16 of scoring among wingers. That's pretty great.

 

[WTFetus]

But it's the coaching over the lack of talent? Sorry, not buying it. Timo is 32nd and in the top 16 of scoring among wingers. That's pretty great.

I don't know why it can't be both. No one is arguing that the lack of depth sucks. But I disagree that anyone is greatly exceeding expectations this season. Boughner's system looks awful though and it isn't conducive to winning, moreso they are always playing not to lose. And I don't think more talent would change his mindset or strategy given his coaching history.

In short, he's a dime a dozen coach. He isn't the sole reason the team sucks, but he certainly isn't helping. Given his lackadaisical performance, the team would be better off experimenting with someone else.

If the current team was sucking under someone like Trotz, Quenville, etc. who have a history of NHL success, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and probably keep them to see how they do with a better roster. Nothing in Boughner's history as a coach or what he has done over the past 2.5 years gives him the benefit of the doubt for me. Again, he has no redeeming qualities and they'd be better off seeing what else is out there. It's not like he's a hot commodity and will get swiped up by another team ASAP. I honestly don't expect him to be an NHL head coach for a number of seasons after this if ever (likely an assistant somewhere though).

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I don't know why it can't be both. No one is arguing that the lack of depth sucks. But I disagree that anyone is greatly exceeding expectations this season. Boughner's system looks awful though and it isn't conducive to winning, moreso they are always playing not to lose. And I don't think more talent would change his mindset or strategy given his coaching history.

In short, he's a dime a dozen coach. He isn't the sole reason the team sucks, but he certainly isn't helping. Given his lackadaisical performance, the team would be better off experimenting with someone else.

If the current team was sucking under someone like Trotz, Quenville, etc. who have a history of NHL success, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and probably keep them to see how they do with a better roster. Nothing in Boughner's history as a coach or what he has done over the past 2.5 years gives him the benefit of the doubt for me. Again, he has no redeeming qualities and they'd be better off seeing what else is out there. It's not like he's a hot commodity and will get swiped up by another team ASAP. I honestly don't expect him to be an NHL head coach for a number of seasons after this if ever (likely an assistant somewhere though).

To be clear, I'm fine if they replace him but the grass isn't always greener. If they don't do something to add scoring this off season I don't think anything but a legit great coach will make a difference and wouldn't have these last few seasons. Also a great coach won't take this job.

 

[WTFetus]

To be clear, I'm fine if they replace him but the grass isn't always greener. If they don't do something to add scoring this off season I don't think anything but a legit great coach will make a difference. Also a great coach won't take this job.

Yeah, I just think the benefits of getting a new coach outweigh whatever harms the pro-Boughner group suggests.
Similar to the GM position, I also just don't want a retread.