Speculation: 2021-22 Sharks Roster Discussion Part XI

[Pinkfloyd]

You're being purposefully obtuse if you don't think that was one of the reasons though.
Buying out Jones was "clean" as you call it, but it also saved them in cap space. Buying out Simek actually makes the team worse off in cap space. It may be "clean" but the two situations aren't even remotely similar and it'd be a really dumb move by management if they did it.

You're being purposely obtuse if you think they wouldn't buy someone out to just get rid of a guy even if the difference through other methods is marginal. Just because Jones' buyout saved cap space, it extended the dead money. In Simek's case, it's peanuts to deal with. If they're going to be willing to bury the guy but he wants an opportunity elsewhere in the NHL, I bet the team is willing to do that considering they save actual money doing it and don't have to pay millions in a buyout to move on from someone they can't get anything for.

 

[Hodge]

You're being purposely obtuse if you think they wouldn't buy someone out to just get rid of a guy even if the difference through other methods is marginal. Just because Jones' buyout saved cap space, it extended the dead money. In Simek's case, it's peanuts to deal with. If they're going to be willing to bury the guy but he wants an opportunity elsewhere in the NHL, I bet the team is willing to do that considering they save actual money doing it and don't have to pay millions in a buyout to move on from someone they can't get anything for.

If Simek can't crack a defense corps that gives regular minutes to Megna, Meloche and Ryan Merkley he's not gonna find an opportunity elsewhere in the NHL. Another idiotic pointless contract Doug Wilson left the team with.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If Simek can't crack a defense corps that gives regular minutes to Megna, Meloche and Ryan Merkley he's not gonna find an opportunity elsewhere in the NHL. Another idiotic pointless contract Doug Wilson left the team with.

Jones was in a similar situation. Nobody should have signed him but someone did.

 

[timorous me]

I suppose what I'd say about burying Simek is that, as Hodge said, if he can't crack a defense like our current one--and that's not even including Knyzhov, who will hopefully be healthy and playing next season--then "burying him" is only going to sort of be semantics, because it'll more just be him not making the roster and being sent to the minors. And they could always bring him back up if they end up having cap space after all.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I don't even know if it's worth it for us. Rather just hope Labanc can find his game.

Of course it is.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I don’t think Labanc is going anywhere. If anything, they will let him regain his prior form before deciding what to do. If he improves the team, he stays. If he doesn’t, then at least his value will be back up to trade him.

He's had 3 seasons to "regain his prior form". His prior form included getting 3rd line matchups with a still effective future HOF centerman. Unfortunately this is likely all he is.

 

[WSS11]

I can't fault Boughner at all for 2019-2020...he came in halfway through.

Berube?

 

[sharks_dynasty]

He's had 3 seasons to "regain his prior form". His prior form included getting 3rd line matchups with a still effective future HOF centerman. Unfortunately this is likely all he is.

Sorry, let me clarify. I meant prior form to injury. Teams that trade for him will want to make sure he is still the same player more or less before making the trade.

 

[STL Shark]

He's had 3 seasons to "regain his prior form". His prior form included getting 3rd line matchups with a still effective future HOF centerman. Unfortunately this is likely all he is.

Or, as I beat the drum yet again, the coaching staff can play him as he should be played as an offensive and PP specialist and stop trying to turn him into a 200 foot player in the top 6.

The quicker someone in the organization reads this website and gets on board with my idea to go with an all offense 3rd line of Dahlen-??-Labanc and give them 65-70 percent OZ starts the quicker this team gets more competitive and finally finds secondary scoring.

Need an organizational switch in philosophy badly. Look at a Patrick Kane (just since he destroyed us last night) for example. Dude has gotten 75% OZ starts this season. Not saying Labanc and Dahlen are Kane or close to it, but give them that sort of usage rather than trying to roll 4 lines evenly and you'll undoubtedly see Labanc turn into a 50 point guy again. Want to know why Labanc was so good in 2018-19? He had Thornton at center and no one tried to make either of them into a 200 ft player and gave them the most OZ starts in the forward group.

Play strategic lines and rosters rather than just thinking you can throw everyone in a blender and roll them out there at random. Don't ice a garbage 4th line that you have to shelter that can't score and can't defend. Make Bonino the 4C and play him with Nieto and a Cogliano type and run them into the ground on DZ starts. Let the 3rd line noted above take on the OZ starts and chip in some secondary scoring. This is the only way to salvage things and hopefully whoever the new GM (and potentially new coach) is will understand that.

 

[NWSharkie]

Or, as I beat the drum yet again, the coaching staff can play him as he should be played as an offensive and PP specialist and stop trying to turn him into a 200 foot player in the top 6.

The quicker someone in the organization reads this website and gets on board with my idea to go with an all offense 3rd line of Dahlen-??-Labanc and give them 65-70 percent OZ starts the quicker this team gets more competitive and finally finds secondary scoring.

Need an organizational switch in philosophy badly. Look at a Patrick Kane (just since he destroyed us last night) for example. Dude has gotten 75% OZ starts this season. Not saying Labanc and Dahlen are Kane or close to it, but give them that sort of usage rather than trying to roll 4 lines evenly and you'll undoubtedly see Labanc turn into a 50 point guy again. Want to know why Labanc was so good in 2018-19? He had Thornton at center and no one tried to make either of them into a 200 ft player and gave them the most OZ starts in the forward group.

Play strategic lines and rosters rather than just thinking you can throw everyone in a blender and roll them out there at random. Don't ice a garbage 4th line that you have to shelter that can't score and can't defend. Make Bonino the 4C and play him with Nieto and a Cogliano type and run them into the ground on DZ starts. Let the 3rd line noted above take on the OZ starts and chip in some secondary scoring. This is the only way to salvage things and hopefully whoever the new GM (and potentially new coach) is will understand that.

Thing is, Kane and Thornton are HOF-level talents. If you have someone who's game-breakingly good at one thing and just OK at others, you let them do that one thing.

Labanc (and Dahlen) are not that. If we had a Backlund-type 3C to basically paper over Labanc's defensive deficiencies or a D-corps that wasn't running more than one of Megna, Vlasic, Simek, Meloche, we might be able to do what you're saying. But Labanc isn't a talented enough offensive threat to make that risk worthwhile on this team.

 

[Cas]

Thing is, Kane and Thornton are HOF-level talents. If you have someone who's game-breakingly good at one thing and just OK at others, you let them do that one thing.

Labanc (and Dahlen) are not that. If we had a Backlund-type 3C to basically paper over Labanc's defensive deficiencies or a D-corps that wasn't running more than one of Megna, Vlasic, Simek, Meloche, we might be able to do what you're saying. But Labanc isn't a talented enough offensive threat to make that risk worthwhile on this team.

Of course we're bleeding offensive chances against as it stands with our "defensive" third line, collection of AHL misfits on the fourth line, and overpromoted bottom six guys on Couture's line anyway. At least an all-offense, no defense third line might be able to generate more goals while still giving up the odd-man rushes we already have to eat all the time.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The bottom six is a problem but it's not their biggest problem. The Sharks two biggest problems are whichever top six line doesn't have Meier on it and their blue line. You can't really hope to fix the third line if your second line remains in shambles.

 

[Lebanezer]

The bottom six is a problem but it's not their biggest problem. The Sharks two biggest problems are whichever top six line doesn't have Meier on it and their blue line. You can't really hope to fix the third line if your second line remains in shambles.

Should’ve traded for Eichel.

 

[STL Shark]

Thing is, Kane and Thornton are HOF-level talents. If you have someone who's game-breakingly good at one thing and just OK at others, you let them do that one thing.

Labanc (and Dahlen) are not that. If we had a Backlund-type 3C to basically paper over Labanc's defensive deficiencies or a D-corps that wasn't running more than one of Megna, Vlasic, Simek, Meloche, we might be able to do what you're saying. But Labanc isn't a talented enough offensive threat to make that risk worthwhile on this team.

Thornton was no longer a HOF talent whenever he was centering Labanc in 2018-19. I am not saying this is the ideal blank slate roster construction if I was starting a team from scratch with no money committed on the cap, but when you have a guy that is a potential negative value asset in Labanc that is exceptionally good at one thing (creativity in the OZ) and are otherwise cap and asset strapped, create a way to win with that guy rather than just run "your system" as a coach and bemoan the fact that the players aren't better.

I think Labanc's defensive issues are overstated on here (not a Selke finalist by any means but also not as bad as many here play them out to be and probably squarely average to slightly below), but anyone with a functioning brain should be able to look at his 2020-21 and 2021-22 zone starts (45% and 36% respectively) and realize that is a remarkably stupid way to utilize that sort of player. His best traits are offense and for the past 76 games this staff/organization has tried to utilize him as some sort of a shutdown savant in the DZ.

 

[themelkman]

The top six is the problem that creates the depth problem. We have good bottom sixers forced up the lineup

 

[one2gamble]

The bottom six is a problem but it's not their biggest problem. The Sharks two biggest problems are whichever top six line doesn't have Meier on it and their blue line. You can't really hope to fix the third line if your second line remains in shambles.

I mean they went a good decade with a shitty bottom six

 

[timorous me]

The top six is the problem that creates the depth problem. We have good bottom sixers forced up the lineup

This is why I still feel like our best hope for a positive contribution from Labanc comes from putting him on a line with Hertl (or even Couture if it's also with Timo). He needs to be on a line with others who can drive play and create offense, and if healthy and confident, I think he can get back to contributing.

Problem is, I don't know that he can regain that confidence under Boughner, or that Boughner would acquiesce to use him in such a role, or that Boughner's offensive "system" is one that really fits Labanc's game. And where does that leave Barabanov? Well, we don't know what he's asking for, so maybe we're better letting him move on anyway.

But I just see Labanc's trade value as so low right now that it's by far in the team's best interest to try to use him and use him effectively. An all-offense third line could work, but I'm kind of down on Dahlen right now (though with a feeling that he could come back fresher and better next year) so I wouldn't feel great about him and Labanc on the same line. That might be pushing it too far.

 

[Evgeny Oliker]

With the back to back games on Saturday and Sunday, is there a decent chance Dahlen plays in at least one of those games?

 

[spintops]

Scoring is just ridiculous this year - Are Timo/Hertl even top end 1st liners? Timo is seemingly having a elite season but looking at the scoring chart he is 29th in points sandwiched between Sam Reinhart - Robert Thomas - Chris Kreider. Seems like they would make up an elite second line - Team needs to somehow luck into a franchise #1 center and let Couture play on his wing,

 

[themelkman]

Scoring is just ridiculous this year - Are Timo/Hertl even top end 1st liners? Timo is seemingly having a elite season but looking at the scoring chart he is 29th in points sandwiched between Sam Reinhart - Robert Thomas - Chris Kreider. Seems like they would make up an elite second line - Team needs to somehow luck into a franchise #1 center and let Couture play on his wing,

I like both of them as first liners and Couture as a second liner. Problem is the other 3 top sixers are non existent.

 

[Lebanezer]

With the back to back games on Saturday and Sunday, is there a decent chance Dahlen plays in at least one of those games?

There's a chance, but it's hard to know with Boughner. He seems more interested in attempting to not lose than allowing players to play and develop right now.

 

[gaucholoco3]

For Labanc you either play him as the 3rd best player on a top 6 Line or you buy him out. If they are looking to save cap I would rather buy Labanc out instead of Vlassic. It provides more cap savings with a shorter and smaller penalty in the future. I actually think this is part of why they decided to shut him down for the rest of the season. I don't think he has any trade value and the asset to trade him is not worth the small cap penalty of a buy out.

 

[Gecklund]

There's a chance, but it's hard to know with Boughner. He seems more interested in attempting to not lose than allowing players to play and develop right now.

Maybe it’ll change at this point with us officially out of the playoffs. (Hopefully)

 

[sharks_dynasty]

For Labanc you either play him as the 3rd best player on a top 6 Line or you buy him out. If they are looking to save cap I would rather buy Labanc out instead of Vlassic. It provides more cap savings with a shorter and smaller penalty in the future. I actually think this is part of why they decided to shut him down for the rest of the season. I don't think he has any trade value and the asset to trade him is not worth the small cap penalty of a buy out.

Seriously, why does everyone think that Labanc has no trade value? Let’s give him time to establish his game so it can be determined whether he is better off staying with the team or whether he should be traded. I’m so glad management doesn’t just throw away players or assets like it is often suggested on these boards.

 

[Barrie22]

Thornton was no longer a HOF talent whenever he was centering Labanc in 2018-19. I am not saying this is the ideal blank slate roster construction if I was starting a team from scratch with no money committed on the cap, but when you have a guy that is a potential negative value asset in Labanc that is exceptionally good at one thing (creativity in the OZ) and are otherwise cap and asset strapped, create a way to win with that guy rather than just run "your system" as a coach and bemoan the fact that the players aren't better.

I think Labanc's defensive issues are overstated on here (not a Selke finalist by any means but also not as bad as many here play them out to be and probably squarely average to slightly below), but anyone with a functioning brain should be able to look at his 2020-21 and 2021-22 zone starts (45% and 36% respectively) and realize that is a remarkably stupid way to utilize that sort of player. His best traits are offense and for the past 76 games this staff/organization has tried to utilize him as some sort of a shutdown savant in the DZ.

Thornton in that year put up 51 points in 73 games. With 36 of them being even strength. He was still elite and playing at near the top of his game, just with less minutes then before.

And he also had to carry around on his back labanc and sorensen.