2020 Offseason Thread Part III

[deadhead]

Why are we criticizing Frost? Kid has potential to be a good player for us. Top 6 talent. We don’t need a sniper. We need speed and skill in our top six. Talent wins over all. We have a bunch of people on these boards who like to just trash our own prospects. And I know they will say “nobody’s trashing them” but then they call them their little nicknames and act like that’s how the board views them. Like the post above. Literally nobody in their right mind thinks Frost is a prospect close to Crosby was.

literally just want to hold onto them until/if they play for us or an actual deal that comes our way that makes sense.

Who was trashing Frost outside of an outlier or two?

I think the conflict is between those who confuse upside with actual production (he's a top prospect so he MUST be NHL ready), and those who are willing to be more patient (if Panarin took until he was 22-23 to break out, there's nothing wrong if Frost doesn't start until he's 21 instead of 20).

Flyers have a lot of solid prospects, but they will progress on their own timeline, not the fan's expectations. Now mistakes will be made, because with all young players there are judgment calls, and right now, those calls are primarily between which young player you want to start next year.

I think Farabee and Frost will be fixtures in the top six in a couple years, I also think both would have benefited by spending the entire season in the AHL if the Flyers had that kind of depth. Both need more physical maturity to handle NHL hockey, especially playoff hockey.

Jake Guentzel for example, spent 3 years in college, then at age 22 started his pro career in the AHL, after 33 games he was called up and was an "instant success." Farabee was 19, Frost was 20, so being patient for a couple more seasons with their development isn't going to ruin them. Walk, then run.

 

[BiggE]

I know the start of the next season is still to be determined and yeah, it’s a long way off no matter, but for the love of God can anyone tell me why Michel Therrien is still employed by the Flyers?

 

[FlyTimmo]

Especially considering the endless complaints from Flyers fans about JVRs flaws. He’s a far better play driver and defensive player than Laine and all people do is shit on him and want him traded away. And he didn’t even cost us trade assets to acquire and won’t cost as much cap space over the next few years.

Not to mention, with AV as coach, Laines scoring and usage would likely take a hit and we’d have much less of the good he provides and much more of the bad, same as the impact AV has on all our current players.

There is an interesting crossover of people who seem to want JVR gone, but also want Laine. I mean I'd be perfectly fine with JVR being shipped out, but replacing him with Laine is just a bad value move. You aren't just trading for a ~30-40 goal scorer. You are also trading for a 22yo former #2 overall pick. That extra reputation cost will not be trivial.

 

[deadhead]

Yeah, if I were to dump JVR to make room for a young winger, it would be Ehlers, not Laine, but I think the cost would be prohibitive.

But I far prefer to be patient with Frost, Farabee and Brink.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why do you say that?

If you said "the Flyers do not trust 20 year old Morgan Frost," sure, I'd agree with that.

Just last week, Fletch went on about how highly they think of Frost.

Myers didn’t make the team out of camp a year ago when he was 22, so the Flyers are going to trade him.

 

[Striiker]

There is an interesting crossover of people who seem to want JVR gone, but also want Laine. I mean I'd be perfectly fine with JVR being shipped out, but replacing him with Laine is just a bad value move. You aren't just trading for a ~30-40 goal scorer. You are also trading for a 22yo former #2 overall pick. That extra reputation cost will not be trivial.

If we're trading JVR then the biggest reasons are to 1) clear cap room for other guys upcoming contract extensions, and 2) open up roster for our young players with potential.

Adding Laine prevents both of those things from happening.

JVR + cap space + the trade assets > Laine
Especially when we consider the AV factor.

 

[FLYguy3911]

 

[Striiker]

I wonder if he'd be interested to know that's he's a -53 over his past 4 full seasons.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I didn’t see a post claiming he was or comparing him to Giroux. Well other than yours

Then good. I guess we’re all in agreement.

 

[renberg]

I see this season as one that was a shakedown cruise that netted some surprising positives. Now the PTB know what Vigneault is going to do with this club and that there are some players that are on the roster and are not good fits.
-Others may argue but for whatever reason, Gostisbehere falls into that category.
-The club can easily carry Voracek or JVR on a given night but its best if it were only one of them so someone will have to go.
-If the FO wants a competent 4C, Koivu is the answer meaning that Thompson and Grant aren't being re-signed. ( Any time a club has to go looking for centers at the TDL, they can expect to be screwed in either the payment or return. The Flyers didn't get much from Grant or Thompson but didn't give up that much to obtain them.)
-Laughton could be moved. He's not good enough at center and moving him to LW puts him in the way of better options. Additionally he is going to become more expensive as his UFA time approaches.
-Elliott is a decent back up providing he takes what money the club has to offer.

 

[Striiker]

Making roster changes to fit a coach instead of finding the right coach for your roster is an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Especially if the conclusion is that very good players aren't the type of guys your coach wants.

 

[Adtar02]

Then good. I guess we’re all in agreement.

Do you have conversations in your head that you think happened before you respond to things.

 

[deadhead]

You can't find the "right coach" for your roster b/c your roster will constantly change, due to injuries, free agency, and prospects developing. And without a philosophy, you don't know what changes to make - "keep the best players" doesn't work, because who are the best players depends on the style of play.

So you pick your HC and a philosophy (the philosophy is more important in that you can change a stale HC but if you change the philosophy you have to change the team - see Pittsburgh with Sullivan or the Islanders with Trotz).

Fletcher and AV are hopefully on the same page, so they can reshape the roster to fit what AV wants to do.
AV stresses defense, backchecking, centers who are 3rd defensemen in zone, etc.

Players who are stat driven will hate him (same with Trotz) because he limits the minutes of the top lines to rotate four lines and keep legs fresh (shorter shifts), but this also makes it easier to manage the cap (no big scorers getting overpaid).

NYI let Tavares walk and used his money on players like Martin, Komarov, etc. and went from a nonplayoff team to the CF in two years. It's not how much talent you have so much as how much of the right talent.

One thing working in favor of Fletcher/AV is Hextall had a similar philosophy, so our scouts focus on IQ, two way play, a balance of size and skating, attributes that fit the new regime as well as the old regime.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Do you have conversations in your head that you think happened before you respond to things.

Do you think there have been no implications on this board that Frost is Giroux-level?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I wonder if he'd be interested to know that's he's a -53 over his past 4 full seasons.

I’ve never seen this before. Manny is a Sens fan too. Is this how he named Corsica?

 

[Striiker]

I’ve never seen this before. Manny is a Sens fan too. Is this how he named Corsica?

The tweet was deleted by Ryan quickly after, of course, but the internet never forgets.

One of the sites that can directly fill that void is Corsica Hockey, which was launched in late February by Manny Perry, who previously operated an advanced stats website about the Ottawa Senators. The platform's name even comes from an interaction with Sens forward Bobby Ryan, who referred to popular advanced stat Corsi as "Corsica."

What It Takes to Build An Advanced Hockey Stats Site

 

[FlyTimmo]

If we're trading JVR then the biggest reasons are to 1) clear cap room for other guys upcoming contract extensions, and 2) open up roster for our young players with potential.

Adding Laine prevents both of those things from happening.

JVR + cap space + the trade assets > Laine
Especially when we consider the AV factor.

I just can't imagine big brain Therrien would utilize him properly either

 

[Striiker]

I just can't imagine big brain Therrien would utilize him properly either

Oh absolutely not. AV would have him in the bottom six and Therrien would have him behind the net on the PP.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Oh absolutely not. AV would have him in the bottom six and Therrien would have him behind the net on the PP.

Flyers sadly never use that part of the ice on the PP to begin with.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You can't find the "right coach" for your roster b/c your roster will constantly change, due to injuries, free agency, and prospects developing. And without a philosophy, you don't know what changes to make - "keep the best players" doesn't work, because who are the best players depends on the style of play.

So you pick your HC and a philosophy (the philosophy is more important in that you can change a stale HC but if you change the philosophy you have to change the team - see Pittsburgh with Sullivan or the Islanders with Trotz).

Fletcher and AV are hopefully on the same page, so they can reshape the roster to fit what AV wants to do.
AV stresses defense, backchecking, centers who are 3rd defensemen in zone, etc.

Players who are stat driven will hate him (same with Trotz) because he limits the minutes of the top lines to rotate four lines and keep legs fresh (shorter shifts), but this also makes it easier to manage the cap (no big scorers getting overpaid).

NYI let Tavares walk and used his money on players like Martin, Komarov, etc. and went from a nonplayoff team to the CF in two years. It's not how much talent you have so much as how much of the right talent.

One thing working in favor of Fletcher/AV is Hextall had a similar philosophy, so our scouts focus on IQ, two way play, a balance of size and skating, attributes that fit the new regime as well as the old regime.

NYI had Barzal. The Flyers don’t have a Barzal.

 

[landsbergfan]

Why are you this way

Was this over before,
Before it ever began?

 

[Adtar02]

Do you think there have been no implications on this board that Frost is Giroux-level?

There have been various different levels of frosts ability. From bad to elite. But the only post that compared him to giroux was yours.

frost could be amazing he could bust. I have said I think he can be an impactful player for our team. I also don’t expect huge first few seasons. I didnt expect it this year. I did want him playing more. I do think he needs to improve at the nhl level.

generally don’t have a problem with a player coming getting sent back and then brought up again later. This year we couldn’t do that due to a pandemic.

 

[Striiker]

Ghosts Beer just hates Frost because the majority like him, the coaches won't use him, and a friend told him Frost was disappointing in two AHL games.

 

[Adtar02]

NYI had Barzal. The Flyers don’t have a Barzal.

Is it either superstar or bust for you. Cause everything seems extreme. Constantly lauding other teams top players while doing the opposite of the flyers players.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

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