SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
Let’s say LA passes on Byfield. Would you trade Hughes and our 2 late 1sts for the Sens #3 and #5? Come out with Byfield, Drysdale and Sanderson/Rossi/Holtz/Raymond.
Let’s say LA passes on Byfield. Would you trade Hughes and our 2 late 1sts for the Sens #3 and #5? Come out with Byfield, Drysdale and Sanderson/Rossi/Holtz/Raymond.
Needing a stud defenseman is all well and good, but that’s an awful reason to draft a player. “We need a shut down defenseman, so even though a winger with unanimous game breaking talent is on the board, we’re going to take the other guy.” Again, this is just the inverse rationale of what led us to Zacha in 2015.
If Sanderson was Dahlin, you obviously sprint to the podium and take him. The reality is that he isn’t a no brainer, and the forwards on the board will have immense talent and upside. I’m a fan of Sanderson, but I’m not sure I could personally justify letting Marco Rossi or Lucas Raymond slip to another team while we take a guy who probably caps out as a Ryan McDonagh type.
See, here's the thing, you are making definitive statements about his tremendous growth as a player based on THREE MONTHS of play. He didn't show enough earlier in his career for me to take THREE MONTHS of play as proof he is ELITE skating wise and EXCELLENT offensively.
I said you were wrong to call his skating ELITE...ironically you must agree with me since you point out he is clearly behind Q Hughes (who actually has ELITE skating). I don't see why you are debating this.
I also don't get why you are arguing his playing style with me. I think we agree on that. The disagreement comes into risk vs reward where I view him maxing out as middle pair (high end #3) and you view him as not only a top pair, but a true #1 D. Maybe he takes a massive leap next year, but I don't see THAT type of upside right now.
Let’s not act as if Sanderson is this average player and that we’d be reaching, just to fill a void.
The fact that according to the majority of fans today, being a #1 pairing dman equals putting up a point a game, it’s only normal that when looking at Sanderson, people are left wanting more.
However, in the eyes of people who manage hockey teams and NHL coaches, I can guarantee you that they would rather have a player like Ryan Suter (with more speed) instead of an Erik Karlsson.
Someone like Sanderson is not as sexy when compared to a flashy forward, but he’s what you need if you want to win hockey games. I love Rossi and he’s probably the only forward I’d be happy with, if both dmen are still on the board. He’s small but plays big and that’s a quality I love to see out of our players. He’s the opposite of Zacha, who’s big and tall but plays like he’s 5’9" and avoids contact like the plague.
Let’s just say that Sanderson turns out like McDonagh, I don’t see how that would be a bad thing? Isn’t McDonagh a top pairing dman? I keep hearing on our board that we don’t want to be the Oilers of the east but some want to go down the same route they did by drafting forwards on top of forwards... how does that make any sense?
Pavel Zacha was drafted based on potential alone and Provorov was the clear cut favorite at our spot. That’s not the same thing in regards to Sanderson for the reasons @StevenToddIves has been mentioning for close to two months now, if not more.
Sanderson is already good and he’s just figuring out what he can do. He was given a more defensive role to start the year and halfway through the year, the coaching staff gave him the green light to utilise his skills at both ends of the rink. He’s a kid on the upswing and when you have the tools he already had and is just scratching the surface regarding his offensive game, it’s no surprise that the hockey world is taking about Sanderson being picked as the 1st dman in the 2020 draft.
Let’s say LA passes on Byfield. Would you trade Hughes and our 2 late 1sts for the Sens #3 and #5? Come out with Byfield, Drysdale and Sanderson/Rossi/Holtz/Raymond.
A quick and hard no.
Eh idk man, That's an intriguing offer. Having three top 7 picks would be huge.
Just figured id let you know @StevenToddIves I started an HFBoards Mock that each fan base votes on their picks for and right by the time the Cup is awarded (so we know official draft order) I will have all 31 picks made/posted on the main board and will start a round 2 after that for about two weeks prior to the draft.
Ill tag you once its completed though it wont be for a while. Currently Ottawa is up at pick 5 and with about 12-14 hours left on their pick theyve got Raymond at over 50% on around 80 votes. Perfetti went to Detroit and the likely three went top-3
Anaheim fans seem to like Rossi a lot but if they see Drysdale available (if Ottawa doesnt flip by 1-2am) maybe theyll change their mind
Will be very interesting what this board decides if Anaheim takes Rossi and its Drysdale/Sanderson on the board. The thread should make it here by around Friday
Prodigy's HFBoards 2020 NHL Draft - Pick #5
Heres a link if you wanted to see Ottawa’s pick for example
Yeah I cant see Ottawa passing Drysdale or Sanderson but it still is a ton of fun watching the fan bases have to rack their brains as the picks go on and their favorites are gone - kinda like a GM at the table lol.I'd of course love to help you out any way possible, so just let me know.
I think these sort of "fan drafts" are fun, but they're normally a poor indicator of how things will actually go, on account of the Senators or Ducks front office likely have wildly different draft boards than their fan bases.
I think the debate is more along the lines of "what makes a #1 defender".
If you believe that Ryan Suter was a #1 defender or that Miro Heiskanen is becoming one? Well, those are Sanderson's best comparables currently playing in the NHL. If you believe that a D must score 55-60 points to be considered a #1 defender, then we have a difference in belief concerning what defines the #1 defender.
Personally, I believe Sanderson's scoring totals will approximate Suter while outshining Heiskanen. I think there is no reason whatsoever to believe he will not be as capable in a shut-down role as either of those players. To me, that makes him a #1 defender at the NHL level.
And yes, I would agree with you that Sanderson's skating is not on the level of Quinn Hughes -- whom I would call currently the best skating defenseman in the entire NHL, if not the planet Earth. But Sanderson's tremendous skating ability and meteoric development during the 2019-20 campaign were both well documented, and not just my opinion.
This, from a Ryan Wagman article in early February: The younger Sanderson can fly. And it is that latter reason why I believe he has moved up draft lists rapidly since his draft year began. Based on my early viewings of him this year, I saw a blueliner who could skate well, showing a second gear on occasion, but most often playing at a more sedate pace. Now, it seems that each time he gained control of the puck in his own zone at the Top Prospects Game, he was off like a bullet, carrying the puck out, through the neutral zone, and into the offensive end before the opposition could react. More often than not, he wouldn’t stop at the offensive blueline either, but would rush the net, forcing opposing defenders to turn around and react, leading to errors and scoring chances.
This, from a Steve Kournianos article comparing Sanderson to Drysdale:
Skating
Sanderson and Drysdale both have explosive first steps and long, clean strides, although Sanderson displays more power while Drysdale is more graceful. Trying to guess who would win in a head-to-head foot race at this stage is impossible because both have elite straight-line speed. People might lean towards Drysdale because he’s wiry and looks like a blur out there, but those same people probably slept on Sanderson’s quickness in the first place. Either defender can go coast to coast while making sharp directional changes at top speed.
In terms of balance, neither Sanderson nor Drysdale lack in that department. Sanderson, however, is impossible to knock off the puck when standing still, let alone at top speed. He also absorbs hits better than any No. 1 defensemen in his class. Drysdale relies more on his speed and agility to avoid close contact, but he can be shoved off the puck or knocked down far easier than Sanderson.
Agility-wise, the edge has to go to Drysdale. The way he walks the line and uses fakes, only to drop a nasty directional change and head for the goal, is beyond elite — you can feel a checking forward’s anxiety if he’s tasked to cover Drysdale’s side, or at least trying to cover him. Both Sanderson and Drysdale are elusive, but Drysdale’s escapability is on another level. Forechecking either one of these studs is best performed with a sizable cushion in between, so chasing them behind the net is useless unless there is a trap established to fix one of them into a forced pass or turnover. Thing is, they deliver timely first passes with authority, so two forecheckers committed to containing either Drysdale or Sanderson usually get trapped a good 20-40 feet behind the play.
Winner: Tie
In the end, I'm not trying to be combative or prove my own points, I'm trying to end a misconception (which I am certainly not accusing you of perpetuating) that Sanderson is this unremarkable, steady, old school, stay-at-home defenseman. He's an exciting, fast-paced player who takes control of the ice every time he steps onto it. I would certainly debate the notion that his upside is a very good 3/4 defenseman, since being a very good 3/4 defenseman is clearly Sanderson's downside. If he barely develops his complete game from right now, he will be an above-average mid-pairing NHL-er in a few years. So, I'm not sure where the narrative started that he isn't capable of much more than that.
I do not believe this will be a debate after the 2020 draft, because I find it extremely unlikely that Sanderson falls to the Devils' #7 overall pick. His closest comparable in recent drafts was Miro Heiskanen, who went far earlier than the pundits expected at #3 overall in 2017 -- and Sanderson's upside is greater than Heiskanen's in the opinion of many (myself included). Detroit is desperate at LD and pick #4, while Anaheim is desperate at LD and have a particular proclivity for loving players stylistically resembling Sanderson, and the Ducks pick #6.
Yeah I cant see Ottawa passing Drysdale or Sanderson but it still is a ton of fun watching the fan bases have to rack their brains as the picks go on and their favorites are gone - kinda like a GM at the table lol.
Yeah I cant see Ottawa passing Drysdale or Sanderson but it still is a ton of fun watching the fan bases have to rack their brains as the picks go on and their favorites are gone - kinda like a GM at the table lol.
Im going to create a main board thread soon thatll be a live action follow of the picks as they come in. Ill link it in here when the time comes - feel free to pop in to that thread to discuss teams taking certain guys if youd like, since I know you get a kick out of that.
Ill link that thread in a little bit - also if its Drysdale/Sanderson for us at our pick Friday who are you taking?
Steven I appreciate all of your write-ups. I entered this discussion as a #NeverSandersoner but really think twice about that after your insight. Appreciated.
While teams always say they don't draft for need, I'd be curious if they leaned towards a RW like Raymond. Similar to Chicago passing on Bowen Byram last year for Kirby Dach; Chicago had used a bunch of recent picks on D even though none of them had Byram's upside. Ottawa's used late first rounders on Lassi Thomson and Jacob Bernard-Docker the last two years and they have Erik Brannstrom on the farm.
Is that hashtag really a thing? Haha.
Seriously, I try to look at these things scientifically rather than emotionally. I mean, is there a chance that Sanderson only develops into a good, middle-pairing defenseman? Sure! The same chance that Rossi or Stutzle or Raymond or Holtz only develop into good, second-line forwards.
The fact is that we're looking at 18 year olds and trying to project what they will be like as 20 to 35 year olds. It's an imperfect science, but you can use the empirical data and combine that with past draft precedent in order to get a pretty good idea.
Ultimately, the top 10 draft picks selected in 2020 will not all win MVP trophies, and they will not all be Hall of Famers. But there's certainly the chance they will all become good, even great NHL-ers. The idea that Jake Sanderson has less of a chance to achieve such a status as a Raymond or Perfetti or Holtz because of his style of play simply does not make sense to me.
I'm impressed that you have the ability to -- if not changing your opinion -- at least open your mind to alternate opinions. The worst draft analysts refuse to bend from their initial opinions: "but Askarov did not have a great WJC!" or "but Raymond did not put up numbers in his draft-eligible season!" or "but Quinn came out of nowhere!" or whatever. The best draft analysts have the ability to assimilate new information with their previously held opinions. I like to call this unique phenomenon: learning. I do it all the time -- at the outset of the 2020 season, I had Antonio Stranges and JL Foudy in my top 15 and Jack Quinn not close to my first round. Clearly, I was wrong. But I don't feel that I was stupid because of this. Conversely, I would indeed be stupid if I continued to rank Jack Quinn outside my top 20 so that I wouldn't have to admit I was wrong about him in the first place.
Jake Sanderson does not have to be in your top 10 in order for you to be knowledgable about hockey. You can certainly present a prescient argument about why you would rather draft Mercer or Jarvis or Lundell and I would listen to it. The only thing I have a problem with is when people falsely describe him as a low-event, stay-at-home defenseman without doing due diligence because they read that bulls--t in October.
Anyway, thanks for the kind words and I'm always happy to hear from you!
For anyone who was interested - Prodigy’s HFBoards 2020 NHL Draft Project - Live-Look Thread
Our pick comes up sometime late tomorrow or Friday - looks like one of the defenseman will be available but will Rossi? We will find out soon
@StevenToddIves
I'll trust Steve's analysis on Sanderson.
He was part of the coaching staff that drafted 5th grade me in a junior street hockey league, and I later went on to be the #1 pick in the senior league draft, so I mean the guys clearly got an eye for projecting talent.