2020/21 Roster Thread VI: The Edge of Gory

[Rebels57]

I don't see how Ginning has a spot on this roster. Zamula and York are clearly ahead of him.

Oh my dear precious child.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Not going to get worked up about a depth defensemen being waived. There’s bigger fish to fry with this roster as in bigger problems.

Habitually hamstringing the team by choosing to ice worse players for no reason is a pretty enormous fishephant in the room

 

[ajgoal]

Oh my dear precious child.

Steph? Is that you?

 

[Hurricane28]

Habitually hamstringing the team by choosing to ice worse players for no reason is a pretty enormous fishephant in the room

Hagg and Friedman are both dime a dozen defensemen to me. I read the whole asset management arguments earlier and I just don't buy them. The team isn't struggling because of a 6th/7th defenseman, who has a considerably lower average TOI than the 6 defensemen ahead of him on the depth chart.

 

[Striiker]

This teams biggest problem is puck moving and puck possession.

Hagg is our worst defensemen at puck moving and puck possession.

 

[deadhead]

Friedman is another nitpicking issue, I mean it would have been nice if he stepped up and took a job.
Gus is actually playing well since he was benched, 5 games now, and he has real puck moving skills.

The bigger problem is finding someone to partner with Provorov to get him out of his funk, hopefully Myers will work, but then you have Sanheim - Ghost, we'll see how that works, and eventually Gus - Braun, which could be a fine 3rd pair.

Given all the prospects that have moved ahead of 25 year old AAA lifer Friedman, I'm not going to feel like it's the end of the world if he's claimed.

 

[Hurricane28]

Friedman is another nitpicking issue, I mean it would have been nice if he stepped up and took a job.
Gus is actually playing well since he was benched, 5 games now, and he has real puck moving skills.

The bigger problem is finding someone to partner with Provorov to get him out of his funk, hopefully Myers will work, but then you have Sanheim - Ghost, we'll see how that works, and eventually Gus - Braun, which could be a fine 3rd pair.

Given all the prospects that have moved ahead of 25 year old AAA lifer Friedman, I'm not going to feel like it's the end of the world if he's claimed.

It seemed like Provorov and Ghost brought out the best in each other. Dunno why they were split, I would go back to that.

 

[Tripod]

Friedman is another nitpicking issue, I mean it would have been nice if he stepped up and took a job.
Gus is actually playing well since he was benched, 5 games now, and he has real puck moving skills.

The bigger problem is finding someone to partner with Provorov to get him out of his funk, hopefully Myers will work, but then you have Sanheim - Ghost, we'll see how that works, and eventually Gus - Braun, which could be a fine 3rd pair.

Given all the prospects that have moved ahead of 25 year old AAA lifer Friedman, I'm not going to feel like it's the end of the world if he's claimed.

Just like you said about NAK last year.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I hope someone claims Friedman. Sure he is a #6 but he is a cheap option. But we are going to keep pretending Morin is a NHL forward. K

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hagg and Friedman are both dime a dozen defensemen to me. I read the whole asset management arguments earlier and I just don't buy them. The team isn't struggling because of a 6th/7th defenseman, who has a considerably lower average TOI than the 6 defensemen ahead of him on the depth chart.

Hagg is a pretty massive contributor to the team's problems. A good way to reduce those problems is to play someone better. Reducing problems makes them manageable

 

[deadhead]

Just like you said about NAK last year.

NAK got a shot at 22, came up short, got another shot at 23.
He's turned into a solid 4RW.
But he's not Farabee, he got sent back b/c he had an inconsistent motor, got his wake up call.

Friedman is now 25, I mean how much upside is left?

 

[deadhead]

Hagg is a pretty massive contributor to the team's problems. A good way to reduce those problems is to play someone better. Reducing problems makes them manageable

I'd say that's a bit of an exaggeration, he's only played 12 games, TOI 15 minutes a night GF/GA 5/10. Patrick is 7/12.
He's been the worst defenseman, but he's not the reason the team is struggling.

 

[Rebels57]

It seemed like Provorov and Ghost brought out the best in each other. Dunno why they were split, I would go back to that.

They werent great together so far this season but id probably stick with it too.

 

[Rebels57]

I'd say that's a bit of an exaggeration, he's only played 12 games, TOI 15 minutes a night GF/GA 5/10. Patrick is 7/12.
He's been the worst defenseman, but he's not the reason the team is struggling.

Are you familiar with the term "death by a thousand cuts?"

Hagg is one of the self-inflicted cuts.

 

[Striiker]

Of course they're not going to be great together when Provorov is individually playing poorly. That doesn't mean the combo of players won't work. We have a large enough sample that proves the opposite.

 

[Starat327]

NAK got a shot at 22, came up short, got another shot at 23.
He's turned into a solid 4RW.
But he's not Farabee, he got sent back b/c he had an inconsistent motor, got his wake up call.

Friedman is now 25, I mean how much upside is left?

This is a solid strawman. Kudos. Literally no one in history has ever compared Farabee to NAK. There's absolutely no reason to even mention Farabees name in this paragraph. A simple "I was wrong." Would suffice.

We don't need Friedman to have upside, and you've been told this many times. We just need him to be better than Hagg, which he is.

You consistently make these arguments out to be something more than what they are. Friedman isn't a world beater. No one cares about Friedman. People care about icing the best possible roster... something this front office just made that much harder to do because they waived someone better than what is currently on the ice and playing night in and night out. And it's not about roles or anything like that, because Friedman can do everything Hagg can.

You wont answer this, cause you never do, but do you think it's a good idea to ice worse players over better ones?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'd say that's a bit of an exaggeration, he's only played 12 games, TOI 15 minutes a night GF/GA 5/10. Patrick is 7/12.
He's been the worst defenseman, but he's not the reason the team is struggling.

I didn't say he is the reason the team is struggling. But he is a reason the team is struggling. You upgrade on him and then the team struggles a little less.

 

[Beef Invictus]

NAK got a shot at 22, came up short, got another shot at 23.
He's turned into a solid 4RW.
But he's not Farabee, he got sent back b/c he had an inconsistent motor, got his wake up call.

Friedman is now 25, I mean how much upside is left?

We don't need much upside. We need someone who improves the roster. He is good enough to do that.

 

[Striiker]

This is a solid strawman. Kudos. Literally no one in history has ever compared Farabee to NAK.

You look like such a fool right now

 

[deadhead]

Are you familiar with the term "death by a thousand cuts?"

Hagg is one of the self-inflicted cuts.

Meh, I don't think Friedman or Prosser would make a difference. Prosser is good for 1-2 games, then you'd better sit him back down.
Friedman has gotten bypassed for years by other young defensemen. At some point you have to think "there's no there there."

At this point I'm more interested in Wylie who is four years younger and so far holding his own in the AHL.
And what I'm really hoping is that the college D-men show up in April and we have some serious competition.
This could be an exciting LHV defense:

York - Attard
Zamula - St Ivany
Hogberg - Wylie
Millman

 

[Starat327]

You look like such a fool right now

I stand corrected. Flyers Twitter is dumber than I thought, which is....concerning.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This is a solid strawman. Kudos. Literally no one in history has ever compared Farabee to NAK. There's absolutely no reason to even mention Farabees name in this paragraph. A simple "I was wrong." Would suffice.

We don't need Friedman to have upside, and you've been told this many times. We just need him to be better than Hagg, which he is.

You consistently make these arguments out to be something more than what they are. Friedman isn't a world beater. No one cares about Friedman. People care about icing the best possible roster... something this front office just made that much harder to do because they waived someone better than what is currently on the ice and playing night in and night out. And it's not about roles or anything like that, because Friedman can do everything Hagg can.

You wont answer this, cause you never do, but do you think it's a good idea to ice worse players over better ones?

I remember many, many years ago getting flogged for saying we should be playing Gus 1.0. Not because he's a great player or destined to be great, but because he was better than most of the dmen we were icing at the time. People were flabbergasted at the notion.

I got further flogged for pointing out that it was disturbing to see them finally develop their own in-house D talent and finally get something that would be an upgrade....and management saw no value in it. I said it was a pretty awful omen that they refused to recognize what they had in favor of SAFE and RELIABLE traits like SIZE and BUMPING PLAYERS LATE. I worried that it pointed to there being dominant organizational values that drive them to discard better players to chase VET TALENT and INTANGIBLES instead of good value, good processes, and good results. I wondered what it would mean for all the players we were drafting that we hoped would become cap efficient depth.

Here we are. After all the time spent flogging me for pointing out these concerns which were rooted in the team's own behaviors going back forever, here we are another forever later (in sports time) with the exact same problems and mostly the exact same sort of faces at the highest levels determining what the team values. And we are seeing the same dumbass stuff, ending in the same loser results as ever.

 

[Starat327]

I remember many, many years ago getting flogged for saying we should be playing Gus 1.0. Not because he's a great player or destined to be great, but because he was better than most of the dmen we were icing at the time. People were flabbergasted at the notion.

I got further flogged for pointing out that it was disturbing to see them finally develop their own in-house D talent and finally get something that would be an upgrade....and management saw no value in it. I said it was a pretty awful omen that they refused to recognize what they had in favor of SAFE and RELIABLE traits like SIZE and BUMPING PLAYERS LATE. I worried that it pointed to there being dominant organizational values that drive them to discard better players to chase VET TALENT and INTANGIBLES instead of good value, good processes, and good results.

Here we are. After all the time spent flogging me for pointing out these concerns which were rooted in the team's own behaviors going back forever, here we are another forever later (in sports time) with the exact same problems and mostly the exact same sort of faces at the highest levels.

It's concerning to me that everyone here wants to upgrade the roster but literally in the same breath is saying we shouldn't cate about Friedman being waived.

Obviously, cost, cap, age, etc are all factors but generally speaking, replacing a bad player with a player who isn't as bad (note to those who can't tell the difference -- no one is calling Friedman a great, or even good player) should generally be considered an upgrade, and be a good thing.

But no, he's not Provys partner so he can't help us.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's concerning to me that everyone here wants to upgrade the roster but literally in the same breath is saying we shouldn't cate about Friedman being waived.

Obviously, cost, cap, age, etc are all factors but generally speaking, replacing a bad player with a player who isn't as bad (note to those who can't tell the difference -- no one is calling Friedman a great, or even good player) should generally be considered an upgrade, and be a good thing.

But no, he's not Provys partner so he can't help us.

The "if he's not a franchise player he's not worth trying" mentality is why we keep watching the trash of the league float through this sewer of a team on the way out to sea. A nonstop preference for "proven" depth. Safe and all.

 

[Starat327]

Meh, I don't think Friedman or Prosser would make a difference. Prosser is good for 1-2 games, then you'd better sit him back down.
Friedman has gotten bypassed for years by other young defensemen. At some point you have to think "there's no there there."

At this point I'm more interested in Wylie who is four years younger and so far holding his own in the AHL.
And what I'm really hoping is that the college D-men show up in April and we have some serious competition.
This could be an exciting LHV defense:

York - Attard
Zamula - St Ivany
Hogberg - Wylie
Millman

And in two years none of them will be ready either. I do enjoy this endless game of always looking forward to prospects playing and then shamelessly and infinitely defending management for not doing so, though.

Maybe if Friedman hadn't been told to wait his turn and watch lesser players play in front of him for the past 3 years, we wouldn't be in this spot. But that would actually be a logical idea, so let's not do that.