Speculation: 2020-21 Management/Coach/Owner Discussion

[The Midnight Burrito]

Yeah. Such a strong opinion on people calling out billionaires for their callous actions but hiding behind semantics is chickenshit. I still don't know what point you're even trying to make, if there is one.

"I'm just sayin' it. It doesn't mean I think it or even mean it. Words are just coming out of my head. I'm just saying them."
Spends the rest of his evening pointing out what he didn't say. Thanks for the contribution.

 

[Static]

"I'm just sayin' it. It doesn't mean I think it or even mean it. Words are just coming out of my head. I'm just saying them."
Spends the rest of his evening pointing out what he didn't say. Thanks for the contribution.

Seriously. Still trying to wrap my head around it.

 

[AngelDuck]

Cannot figure out for the life of me why people get so offended and upset about rich people. Seriously mindboggling.

You do realize the 2100 billionaires own over 60% of the wealth in the WORLD. The other 8 billion people split up the remaining less than 40%.

yes, not greedy at all. And nothing to be offended about. Everybody move along

and before you start with your nonsense. Yes there is always and should always be rich and poor people in society. The Samuelis will still be some of the richest people if we fix the issue a bit.

The bottom line is we’ve let it get out of control. It’s so skewed that we can no longer stop it. Disaster
You’re probably too young to remember but it wasn’t always like this. It’s gotten incredibly worse the last 40 years or so. The rich people used to make 10-20 times more than the average joe did per year. Now they make 1000-2000 times the average joe makes.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Billionaires and millionaires who generated money to become so did so with tremendous risk. If the entrepreneurs fail at creating said business, then they're the ones on the hook for that loss. Employees aren't on the hook for all that loss capital (loan, equipment, business location, etc...). Employees can move onto a different job. Employees don't have a lot of risk compared to the owners.

But this is about the Samueli's. They've always been philanthropic. They're doing that by owning the Ducks while losing double-digit millions year after year, which I've already cited in previous posts. But owning the Ducks actually creates jobs or gives more work days to existing Honda Center employees to get paid by having at least 42 home games to inside and outside of Honda center. The factor in the residual income the businesses around home games with the local eateries. So many people benefit when the Ducks are up and running.

Welp, expand that thought to the other businesses that the Samueli's are in. They run the Honda Center. Therefore, any event at the Honda Center means people are getting paid directly and indirectly.

March 11, 2020: Last game played by the Ducks.
March 12, 2020: NHL season is suspended.

April 2, 2020: Ducks Owners to Pay Part-Time Employees Through June 30 Amid Coronavirus

"The Samueli family's primary concern is the welfare of their employees. Today is another example of their kindness, generosity and support for the local community. As a result of their decision, 2,100 dedicated part-time staff members will have one less immediate concern during this significant health crisis. We join them in wishing everybody good health during this unprecedented time."​

The Samueli's are paying three months salary to 2,100 part-time staff despite no venues happening at the Honda Center.

June 15, 2020: Ducks initiate pay cuts for employees who make more than $75,000 a year

The Ducks have initiated pay cuts of 20% to 25% for employees whose annual salaries are $75,000 or more across all entities owned by Susan and Henry Samueli, including the Ducks, Anaheim Arena Management, the San Diego Gulls, the Samueli Family office, and the Rinks.​

No one has been furloughed by the Samueli's at this point, but this move is probably to cover full-time employees. The 2,100 part-time employees were probably not extended beyond June 30, 2020. Fortunately, the CARES act supplemented full salary for unemployment plus $600 per week.

Dec 1, 2020: Ducks announce furloughs and layoffs of employees due to coronavirus

The Ducks on Tuesday announced coronavirus-related furloughs and layoffs impacting nearly 15 percent of full-time staff members of the NHL team, its AHL affiliate in San Diego as well as Honda Center, The Rinks, including Great Park Ice, and ocVIBE, the planned development near the Anaheim arena.

Furloughed employees received a discretionary payment and maintained their medical benefits.​

As you can tell, the Samueli's have tried to streamline their business while having no business for the past eight months while making payments to their employees. At this current moment, there does not seem to be anything positive on the horizon for California, which is probably what prompted the 15% furlough. This happened similarly in late September when Disney reps discovered that Gov Newsom would not open up the state and Disneyland had to fire 28,000 employees. Yet, did you know that the Samueli's did give "discretionary payment and maintained their medical benefits" despite technically no longer being employees?

Billionaires do not possess billions outright. They have value in their businesses that amount to billions. Let's say you owned a classic car that you got as a project decades ago and the value of the junk item was $3,000. After a decade, you finally save up money to fix up the classic car throughout the years. You put in $20,000 over a decade, but the value of that classic car now is priced at $110,000. You don't own $110,000 cash on hand. Yet, the longer you hold onto your classic car, the value increases, yet you only invested $23,000 initially over a decade. You can sell the classic car and get that cash, but you no longer own a classic car. You no longer have the ability to grow that $110,000 value.

The Samueli's are worth about $5.5 billion, according to Forbes.com today and has lost $36 mil since 5pm. In 2016, his worth was $2.6 billion. Broadcom is a semiconductor company that Henry Samueli co-founded 29 years ago. In 2016, it was acquired for $37 billion. That technology moves fast and you have to pay to keep up with the world or move faster, which costs a lot of money for all that brain power and updated technology for more efficient semiconductors. Every technology today uses microprocessors and they're getting smaller while packing more calculating power. The Samueli's do not have $5.5 billion cash on hand. Most of that is the value is tied in the semiconductor company. How much actual liquid capital is available and put right back into the company? We don't know, but we do know about the Ducks.

In 2005, the Samueli's bought the Ducks for $70 mil. Today, the Ducks are worth $460 mil. The Samueli's do not possess $460 mil cash on hand, that's the value of the franchise. The $460 mil value is separate from actually running the Ducks, where you have to compare revenue with expenditures. Anaheim isn't bringing in $460 mil each year. According to statista, the Ducks' revenue for 2018-19 was $137 mil. ($134 mil in 2017-18 and $136 mil in 2016-17.) Just for player salaries going into 2020-21 season, the Samueli's will have to pay out over $82.4 mil, as per capfriendly. Using $137 mil projected revenue, player salaries represents 60.1% of the revenue. Add in all the other staff salaries, the overhead cost for maintaining the Honda Center, and other structural updates to the Honda Center, then we can see how the Samueli's are losing millions in running the Ducks just to own the Ducks.

Regular hockey season is about five months long, usually starts in early October and ends in the first week of April. That's two months, or 40% of the season, lost of generating revenue at the NHL and AHL levels during the regular season. The Samueli's already are losing double-digit millions during a non-COVID-19 season, but shutting down this aspect of his business for the past nine months implies the Samueli's are bleeding hard by owning the Ducks, the Gulls, the Rinks, the Honday Center, and construction of the OCvibe.

It's quite a shame to call the Samueli's selfish, when they're employing so many by owning the Ducks while losing double-digit millions each year as well as helping the local businesses with residual revenue whenever there's an event at the Honda Center. The Samueli's could have sold the Ducks and the Ducks' org could have been relocated to a different city, state, or country, along with relocating all those jobs with it. People are upset that 15% of his employees are furloughed with "discretionary payment and maintained their medical benefits". They blame the Samueli's for the furlough instead of the state policy being implemented to only selected businesses are allowed to operate.

When the Samueli's are able to make money, then they're beyond generous, despite losing millions owning the Ducks. In 2017, they donated $200 mil to UC Irvine, the largest gift in that school's history. I listed what the Samueli's have done to keep employees on their payroll far longer than many other companies. They lasted longer than Disney, but that lasted only two months until even the Samueli's had to succumb to furloughing employees to keep afloat.

I'm sure the Samueli's and Disneyland would like to re-hire employees, but what's the point if the current policy is to remain close for an undetermined amount of time to where their companies cannot generate revenue? Don't hate on the companies who want to keep employees hired. They have no control over the policies of the state.

Ca and Fla are similar in COVID-19 cases and deaths, as per worldometers.

States	Cases	Deaths	death/Cases
CA	1,291,214	19,588	0.015
Fla	1,029,030	18,874	0.018

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The policies between the two states are vastly different. Here's a youtube video that compares Disneyland with Disneyworld that I hope can refocus the hostility against the Samueli's if my written work didn't do it for you.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

I always wondered where the idea of people hating billionaires came from. People have been pushing that same idea of drivel since the early 2000s. I will always support the owners in any situation. I come from a family where a few own businesses. People seem to have no grasp of how hard it is to become even remotely successful and how to generate wealth. People should be applauding the Samuelis for at least paying their employees this long without any extra income coming into the Honda Center.

Some will get mad for the millionaires and billionaires in the US, but I never here a peep over things like the big oil-families of the Middle East, or the Swiss Billionaires that live without a peep. People are so narrowminded that they are so unaware of the world around them. I have some family members in Europe who worked for some soccer teams, to having them lose their jobs since March and haven't been called back since.

Again, I'm glad our owners were able to help out for so long until now.

I'm crying victim for the actual victims in this scenario, the people who needlessly lost their jobs. Another strange thing to try and weaponize that because, what, you think that makes me look bad? Feeling shitty for the people who lost their jobs? I don't get it.

Oh please, I lost my job but am not crying over billionaires over ruining my life. Blame the government for forcing these owners hands by shutting down nearly a full year

Anyway, this is a dick move.

They have been paying workers salaries much longer than other teams. You can't be serious

 

[Static]

Speaking of drivel...

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Speaking of drivel...

excellent rebuttal to my post - thanks!

 

[Static]

excellent rebuttal to my post - thanks!

It's all in here. Nothing you said requires a different response than I've already given.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Social media has done serious damage to public discourse, and among the worst of it is the proliferation of tu quoque deflections, modernly known as whataboutism. Does bringing up Swiss billionaires or western oil magnates (lol) have anything to do with what we're talking about? No. It's some other billionaire doing some other thing, but it's often effective at distracting the conversation. Same deal with talking about how other people haven't done as much. Who gives a shit? May we only criticize the world's least charitable billionaire? Think before you type some of this nonsense, especially if you're going to write hundreds of words of pseudo-analysis.

 

[Deuce22]

Social media has done serious damage to public discourse, and among the worst of it is the proliferation of tu quoque deflections, modernly known as whataboutism. Does bringing up Swiss billionaires or western oil magnates (lol) have anything to do with what we're talking about? No. It's some other billionaire doing some other thing, but it's often effective at distracting the conversation. Same deal with talking about how other people haven't done as much. Who gives a shit? May we only criticize the world's least charitable billionaire? Think before you type some of this nonsense, especially if you're going to write hundreds of words of pseudo-analysis.

Some very good points here. Especially about social media and how people tend to interact on it. I think when discussions go from specifics (Samueli's treatment of employees) to generalities (all rich people are selfish and exploitative), then things can get way off track. I don't agree with you on this issue, but appreciate your nuanced thinking.

 

[Doothpick]

At this stage I don't find working class coming to the rescue of billionaires amusing anymore. It's just downright ignorant and dangerous. It's just so stupid all this started with one person saying it's a shitty thing to the layoffs before Christmas and new year and how Samuelis could afford the salaries, and then all of it evolving to this nonsense.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Policies picks winners and losers. I've compared policies between CA and FL with the Disney company. (Florida's Disney World partially reopened in mid July. CA's Disneyland has remained closed during the shutdown to where they eventually fired 28,000 employees in late September when Governor Newsom would keep the state shutdown in a late September COVID-19 meeting.) Owners want businesses open to generate revenue. Revenue helps to keep businesses open. Here's a policy comparison within our backyard with newer policies being levied recently:





Her business will close down in February if the new policy of shutting down outdoor dining will remain. Owners want to be open to generate revenue, not only for themselves, but for their employees too. Fortunately, the Samueli's are richer than this business owner, but the example is still the same - the business is losing money when they cannot operate. The Samueli's run a deficit owning the Ducks. They've been shutdown since March, which includes all venues at the Honda center and the Rinks. It's December and nothing in near sight to get Honda center up and running. (The hockey hub may not be in CA come Janurary.)

Amazon is up and running. So is Target, Wal-mart, Costco, Stater Bros, etc... All indoor businesses. They're labeled essential workers. In the video above, Garcetti labeled the video production company essential workers. In Europe, we all know they're playing hockey indoors. Policies pick winners and losers.

 

[Static]

Policies picks winners and losers. I've compared policies between CA and FL with the Disney company. (Florida's Disney World partially reopened in mid July. CA's Disneyland has remained closed during the shutdown to where they eventually fired 28,000 employees in late September when Governor Newsom would keep the state shutdown in a late September COVID-19 meeting.) Owners want businesses open to generate revenue. Revenue helps to keep businesses open. Here's a policy comparison within our backyard with newer policies being levied recently:





Her business will close down in February if the new policy of shutting down outdoor dining will remain. Owners want to be open to generate revenue, not only for themselves, but for their employees too. Fortunately, the Samueli's are richer than this business owner, but the example is still the same - the business is losing money when they cannot operate. The Samueli's run a deficit owning the Ducks. They've been shutdown since March, which includes all venues at the Honda center and the Rinks. It's December and nothing in near sight to get Honda center up and running. (The hockey hub may not be in CA come Janurary.)

Amazon is up and running. So is Target, Wal-mart, Costco, Stater Bros, etc... All indoor businesses. They're labeled essential workers. In the video above, Garcetti labeled the video production company essential workers. In Europe, we all know they're playing hockey indoors. Policies pick winners and losers.

This is the kind of rhetoric for people who take no accountability for their actions. Just more garbage.

Especially love the part where the Samueli's run the ducks at a deficit. Nevermind the team valuation has increased 800% in the last 15 years. That'll soften the "deficit" just a little.

 

[Gliff]

I feel like this conversation has moved beyond management into political/COVID talk.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

This is the kind of rhetoric for people who take no accountability for their actions. Just more garbage.

Especially love the part where the Samueli's run the ducks at a deficit. Nevermind the team valuation has increased 800% in the last 15 years. That'll soften the "deficit" just a little.

Huh... guess my long, detailed response earlier in this thread didn't make any sense with you. BTW, your comment is simply trolling if you aren't arguing the idea b/c you're attacking the person. Anyhow, I'll quote my earlier response for educational purposes:

In 2005, the Samueli's bought the Ducks for $70 mil. Today, the Ducks are worth $460 mil. The Samueli's do not possess $460 mil cash on hand, that's the value of the franchise. The $460 mil value is separate from actually running the Ducks, where you have to compare revenue with expenditures. Anaheim isn't bringing in $460 mil each year. According to statista, the Ducks' revenue for 2018-19 was $137 mil. ($134 mil in 2017-18 and $136 mil in 2016-17.) Just for player salaries going into 2020-21 season, the Samueli's will have to pay out over $82.4 mil, as per capfriendly. Using $137 mil projected revenue, player salaries represents 60.1% of the revenue. Add in all the other staff salaries, the overhead cost for maintaining the Honda Center, and other structural updates to the Honda Center, then we can see how the Samueli's are losing millions in running the Ducks just to own the Ducks.​

But let's play out your scenario. Let's have the Samueli's sell the Ducks. Then they don't have to worry about any of the employees as he's no longer beholden to them. It's now onto the new owner. Will that owner be as benevolent? Disney used to own the Ducks, but they sold the Ducks because they were losing money. That's two owners who acknowledge that owning the Ducks are losing money. A new owner would probably move the Ducks elsewhere to where the policies are probably better for generating income as well as move onto a bigger metropolis for a bigger revenue.

Let's go back to Disney. Remember, I have shared with you that Disney owns both Disneyland and Disney World. Disney laid off 28,000 workers because the policy forecast was to remain shutdown in the last September meeting. Once that line of thought was laid down, Disney laid off those workers. The Samueli's waited two more months before laying off 15% of their full time staff with some discretionary money and retains their health care. Please read that again.

It wasn't that long ago that the Ducks were thought to be one of the attrition teams from the NHL. Yet, the Samueli's still want to keep the team and keep the team in Anaheim while incurring a loss. The yearly finance to run the Ducks produces a double digit millions deficit. If the Ducks earn $137 mil in one year, but they spent $150 mil in that same year, then they are in a $13 mil deficit. The Samueli's lost $13 mil by owning the Ducks in this example. Apparently, the Samueli's have never broken even while owning the Ducks.

Let's say the value of your house was $200k in 2005. Your yearly salary was $50k, or $4.16k a month. But because your house was built in 1970s, the a/c system is old and requires too much power to run. On your current salary and your expenditures, you just barely break even during the winter months. When summer comes, your a/c unit causes you to have a $300 deficit for four months. So you either try to work overtime or borrow money from relatives. You don't have enough money to purchase a new $20k a/c system. You are stuck in this pattern for a decade, but you're now able to mitigate that $300 a/c bump for four months with higher pay and you save the other eight months to pay for the increase in a/c unit summer running cost. In your tenth year of ownership, the value of your house skyrockets to half a mil. Technically, you half a millionaire because of your house, but you are barely breaking even based upon your yearly revenue and expenditures. Sure, you can take out a home equity loan, but it's a loan. You are just a third into paying off your mortgage still.

Now, you are considered a half a millionaire because of the value of your house. Do you have that money on hand right now? No. You can get it, but you'd have to sell the house. You cannot generate any more money from the house you sold, but you do have that cash on hand now. You can be very generous now and give it to others, but once that money is spent, then you're back to your usual salary... you know, the one you struggled to survive on purchasing a $200k home for a decade.

I hope that helps to explain just how fortunate we are to have the Samueli's as our owners. Sure the value of the house or Ducks org has risen over the years, but cost to run it is in the double digit millions deficit year after year. Despite knowing the loss in money, the Samueli's are still generous. No way of generating any money for 9 months, but they've been paying thousands for several months. In the housing example, if you lost your job for nine months before the value of the house rose and have no other source of revenue, then you'd have to foreclose because you couldn't pay the housing payment.

Yet, you bring up the value of the Ducks. Are you asking the Samueli's to sell the Ducks? Because that's the only way they get that money. I'd rather have the Samueli's generating revenue so they can continue being philanthropic. There is no need to change the economic system, especially with owners like the Samueli's. We just need to change the policy on being able to generate revenue because money doesn't grow on trees.

But I do find it ironic with you stating, "This is the kind of rhetoric for people who take no accountability for their actions." You do know people make their own choice in life on what they want to do in life. If they want to be a part-time worker, then that is their choice. If they want to be a nurse, then that's their choice too. If they want to start up a microchip business, then that's their choice too. Equality of opportunity is there. I simply disagree with you on equality of outcomes.

The Samueli's could have sold the Ducks once they discovered they are losing money owning the ducks. Fifteen years later, they're still losing millions year after year, but I don't ever see them selling the Ducks at all. There's a comfort in that as a fan. And before this pandemic hit, there's a comfort in all employed under the hockey side of the Samueli's business. Brought the Gulls west, which created a Pacific AHL division. Created the Rinks to develop a hockey community in the OC. And was planning on making area around the Honda Center an entertainment area called the OCvibe. The Samueli's are in it for the long haul in the OC. They're doing things at the macro and micro levels to help many, which means creating employment opportunities.

But, hey, knock on the philanthropic owners because you don't understand valuation and yearly running costs are two separate entities as well as the policies of the pandemic has shutdown generating any revenue for over nine months. You're in charge of your own self and immediate family. That's it. The Samueli's are in charge of several companies, which means thousands of families. Your solution... sell the companies. Yeah... I don't subscribe to that thought at all. I'd rather see more people protest in CA to open up the state so they can start generating revenue again, hopefully enough revenue to start re-hiring once again.

Amazon is hiring like crazy. Why? Did you ask that question to yourself? If not why? But, hey, take enjoyment that a So Cal owner is mad due to policy, a policy that can end her business as well as the employment of her staff. I sincerely thought this example was direct proof of keeping employees employed is tied to policy. If you couldn't comprehend that, then this will be the last input I share with you on this subject. Enjoy your day.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I feel like this conversation has moved beyond management into political/COVID talk.

Unfortunately, it's a multifaceted subject. When fans blame owners for firing employees and believes the owners are selfish, then you have to introduce nuance. Are the owners selfish? Why were the employees fired? Some fans want to make it simple and say billionaires gonna be billionaires; they're just not altruistic. When it comes to the Samueli's, the owners of the Ducks, it's a separate case and a very good case to reveal the Ducks along with its fans are in very good hands as I don't think the Samueli's will ever sell the Ducks. As for political talk, I don't introduce party affiliates. I keep it to policies and I remain consistent on that point. Without COVID, we wouldn't have this discussion at all. We'd be in the start of the third month of hockey and discussing about our club and if we did the right moves this past off-season or not. LoL

 

[bumperkisser]

So here's a question for the samueli haters.

When is it okay for a business to lay off employees? Are all business expected to put employees first even when they're hemorrhaging cash?

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

So here's a question for the samueli haters.

When is it okay for a business to lay off employees? Are all business expected to put employees first even when they're hemorrhaging cash?

I'm not gonna go hard either way but I'm very sympathetic to the argument that if you're a billionaire then you have a societal responsibility to take a hit when times are tough. Like this isn't gonna break him or even come close, he'll still have more money than he ever needs no matter which direction they'd go on this.

And to be fair they've been a lot better than most other owners and in a tougher spot. It could be a lot worse. But still, its a lot tougher to justify billionaires existing if they're gonna continue to thrive while their employees' livelihoods are in jeopardy.

 

[pbgoalie]

My work world involves dealing with pretty successful people. Restaurant owners, business owners of all types really.

I am pretty friendly with two very successful high end restaurant owners. They were hit very hard early, and their desire to not only continue, but be there for the community was apparent. They sold their food, but also opened up “markets” to provide meats, eggs, pastas, and even toilet paper and sanitizers when things were tight early in.

both restaurants invested a lot in their outdoor dining and even at limited servings due to occupancy and the need to sanitize between settings they were very busy but really just getting by. The work loads were much higher and they’re really getting hit hard.

one of them is contemplating closing with the new guidelines. He would hope to return open in spring.
Should he be expected to pay everyone if he shuts down?
He lost many employees on the first go round when they did not return due to unemployment paying enough that they didn’t want to return.

I see this much the same. The Samuelis have paid people to not work for a long time. It sucks, and they did an awful lot for those people by paying them.
But nobody should ever expect to be paid to not work, they should appreciate it IMO

I’m struggling to find a place in my profession due to all of this, and I take every opportunity to make a few bucks that I can.

I never like the expectation that others should be expected to do more due to their success. Where does that success line get drawn
My restaurant friends?
My accountant?
They both live very well

 

[Rasp]

This thread is horrible.

I think the fundamental issue is that the NHL teams have private owners who are interested in profits. Major sports teams in Australia dont compete for profit they compete for championships. If there's any "profit" its funnelled back into the club to improve teams performance. Its all about maximising revenue so you have more to spend on the team.

 

[Static]

So here's a question for the samueli haters.

When is it okay for a business to lay off employees? Are all business expected to put employees first even when they're hemorrhaging cash?

"The samueli haters".

These people are multi-billionaires. Billionaires! This isn't some mom and pop establishment who might get their utilities shut off if they pay their people.

I don't understand how this argument became perverted to include all business owners and the restaurant business and oil barrons and whatever other tangent. This had nothing to do with that.

All this had to do with was people who clearly have more money than they will ever be able to spend lay off employees who they could easily continue paying until things get back to normal(ish) without changing their lifestyle whatsoever. They chose to not do that. That is their right, and I happen to think they are shitty human beings for making that choice.

This isn't Ron's Lawn Mowing business laying off its 16 year old employees for Christ's sake.

 

[Static]

This is the worst health crisis we will ever see in our lifetime and we have people sympathizing with the super rich, literally the only people who will come out of this unscathed. That, to take from a truly inspiring post in this thread, is mind boggling.

Oh, and also this: How billionaires saw their net worth increase by half a trillion dollars during the pandemic

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

So here's a question for the samueli haters.

When is it okay for a business to lay off employees? Are all business expected to put employees first even when they're hemorrhaging cash?

When the topic is billionaires (who are still earning gigantic sums of money on other businesses and investments), it is transparently stupid to compare them to just some random business. They literally lose millions of dollars every year, as a hobby, running this team.

I'm not gonna go hard either way but I'm very sympathetic to the argument that if you're a billionaire then you have a societal responsibility to take a hit when times are tough. Like this isn't gonna break him or even come close, he'll still have more money than he ever needs no matter which direction they'd go on this.

And to be fair they've been a lot better than most other owners and in a tougher spot. It could be a lot worse. But still, its a lot tougher to justify billionaires existing if they're gonna continue to thrive while their employees' livelihoods are in jeopardy.

The operative principle for me is to criticize someone for failing to help as much as they reasonably can instead of praising them for not behaving worse than they are, on a sliding scale that increases in step with the magnitude of the help/failure to do so. The Samuelis have done a lot, because they can.

"They didn't have to help" is a given; that's why it's a choice that we get to judge.

one of them is contemplating closing with the new guidelines. He would hope to return open in spring.
Should he be expected to pay everyone if he shuts down?

Can he afford to?

I see this much the same. The Samuelis have paid people to not work for a long time. It sucks, and they did an awful lot for those people by paying them.
But nobody should ever expect to be paid to not work, they should appreciate it IMO

Does me criticizing the Samuelis somehow demonstrate that the people they paid didn't appreciate it?

I’m struggling to find a place in my profession due to all of this, and I take every opportunity to make a few bucks that I can.

I never like the expectation that others should be expected to do more due to their success. Where does that success line get drawn
My restaurant friends?
My accountant?
They both live very well

Good luck. Sounds like your friends could help, but aren't.

 

[pbgoalie]

Midnight,

I respect your position and we basically disagree on a portion of this.

I have been incredibly supported by some friends through this.
The Restaurant people I spoke of have nothing to be responsible for other than themselves. They do well, and have planned their lives around that. Shop while they MAY be in a position that a lot of people would be happy to be in, they are struggling, adjusting and still facing the reality of those businesses failing depending on where we end up.

I do understand the mentality of someone being worth so much money that they could absorb these type of losses. But I do not like (not saying you are) what can seem to be an anger of someone being wildly successful and having “too much”.

That’s just me. Probably where we would differ. Doesn’t mean either of us is correct or wrong in my world

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Midnight,

I respect your position and we basically disagree on a portion of this.

I have been incredibly supported by some friends through this.
The Restaurant people I spoke of have nothing to be responsible for other than themselves. They do well, and have planned their lives around that. Shop while they MAY be in a position that a lot of people would be happy to be in, they are struggling, adjusting and still facing the reality of those businesses failing depending on where we end up.

I do understand the mentality of someone being worth so much money that they could absorb these type of losses. But I do not like (not saying you are) what can seem to be an anger of someone being wildly successful and having “too much”.

That’s just me. Probably where we would differ. Doesn’t mean either of us is correct or wrong in my world

Look, normally I wouldn't engage a debate like this to this extent but I don't feel like my position is controversial at all. You lay people off around the holidays when you didn't have to, that's a dick move. All of the counterarguments are either relativistic (there are worse people out there/they could have helped even less) or hypothetical (what about this kind of businessman/basically every slippery slope argument) which simply don't apply because I'm not arguing for a policy or a law. I'm talking very specifically about character, and placing money (even money you don't and will never need) above others whom you could help, but don't.

To me this ("this" again = billionaire with no skin in the game other than money he can afford to burn) situation is akin to the folks who gawk at or ignore a sexual assault on a subway. This is arguably worse because there's essentially zero risk for the protagonist here. You could help, a lot, you could prevent this. But you're not.

I'm sorry you've struggled, man. I hope it works out.