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2020-21 Around the League Part II

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Pokecheque

Pokecheque

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Islay1989 said:
Because he shares the view of his coach? He didn't hire him expecting him to baby the players.
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No one's expecting him to "baby the players," however I don't think being a screaming hard-ass is a requirement of the job either. Torts wears out his welcome everywhere he goes, despite being a brilliant coach. It's obvious this has been brewing for a while. I used to be a really big fan of Torts, he's actually quite clever and funny when he's not being an obstinate dickhead, but his schtick is just so tired these days. I'm over it, and obviously, so are a few of the Jackets players.

I don't care if he took one uncharacteristically lazy shift, the media is focusing WAY too much on that. How would any of us function at our jobs if our boss was a controlling asshole who created a toxic environment? Lumbus and Jarmo should've taken care of this a while ago, now it's too late and the damage has been done. You don't have to coddle players, but today's pro sports environment is becoming increasingly intolerant of old-school drill sergeants. Whether y'all think that's a good or bad thing is irrelevant--that's where it's going.
 
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Islay1989

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Pokecheque said:
No one's expecting him to "baby the players," however I don't think being a screaming hard-ass is a requirement of the job either. Torts wears out his welcome everywhere he goes, despite being a brilliant coach. It's obvious this has been brewing for a while. I used to be a really big fan of Torts, he's actually quite clever and funny when he's not being an obstinate dickhead, but his schtick is just so tired these days. I'm over it, and obviously, so are a few of the Jackets players.

I don't care if he took one uncharacteristically lazy shift, the media is focusing WAY too much on that. How would any of us function at our jobs if our boss was a controlling asshole who created a toxic environment? Lumbus and Jarmo should've taken care of this a while ago, now it's too late and the damage has been done. You don't have to coddle players, but today's pro sports environment is becoming increasingly intolerant of old-school drill sergeants. Whether y'all think that's a good or bad thing is irrelevant--that's where it's going.
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My point was that everyone is quick to point to Jarmo and demand he fires him when he might be just fine with what Torts does. Like I said it's not really a secret how Torts handles himself.
 
henchman21

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Jarmo is in a catch 22 situation. If he caves and fires Torts, it sends a terrible message to the team. If he allows Torts to single out PLD, and this continues for the season... it may submarine the season. He can't really win here.
 
Pokecheque

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henchman24 said:
Jarmo is in a catch 22 situation. If he caves and fires Torts, it sends a terrible message to the team. If he allows Torts to single out PLD, and this continues for the season... it may submarine the season. He can't really win here.
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He should've fired Torts after last season. There were perfectly good candidates available (Boudreau, Gallant, among others) and it's obvious they know the relationship between him and Dubois had run aground by then. But now it's way too late. I feel bad that he keeps getting handed to him, but this is a situation where he could have at least minimized the damage. This will ultimately be what costs Jarmo his job, rightly or wrongly. I don't see him recovering from this.
 
LOFIN

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He should've fired Torts after last season. There were perfectly good candidates available (Boudreau, Gallant, among others) and it's obvious they know the relationship between him and Dubois had run aground by then. But now it's way too late. I feel bad that he keeps getting handed to him, but this is a situation where he could have at least minimized the damage. This will ultimately be what costs Jarmo his job, rightly or wrongly. I don't see him recovering from this.
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Yeah, lets fire the guy who has made the playoffs 4/5 seasons he has been with the team, and lost 4x to future SC champion/finalist...
 
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henchman21

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Pokecheque said:
He should've fired Torts after last season. There were perfectly good candidates available (Boudreau, Gallant, among others) and it's obvious they know the relationship between him and Dubois had run aground by then. But now it's way too late. I feel bad that he keeps getting handed to him, but this is a situation where he could have at least minimized the damage. This will ultimately be what costs Jarmo his job, rightly or wrongly. I don't see him recovering from this.
Click to expand...

Torts took a team that many in the media and around here thought was a lottery team to the playoffs. They beat a team out that the media had painted as a contender. They gave the eventual Cup winners arguably their best series. You don't fire a coach after a performance like that. If you do, you start getting worse and worse candidates for the job. Why would Gallant go to a place with less talent, where players want out, and you get fired for 'overperforming?'
 
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Pokecheque

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henchman24 said:
Torts took a team that many in the media and around here thought was a lottery team to the playoffs. They beat a team out that the media had painted as a contender. They gave the eventual Cup winners arguably their best series. You don't fire a coach after a performance like that. If you do, you start getting worse and worse candidates for the job. Why would Gallant go to a place with less talent, where players want out, and you get fired for 'overperforming?'
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Yes, you do. Lou Lamoriello didn't hesitate to fire a coach if he felt the team wasn't performing to expectations. He literally fired Claude Julien on the eve of the playoffs. He's made no secret when he feels it's because the players quit on him and blamed them for forcing his hand, but he still did it. He has been less successful in the modern-day NHL but there's a reason that guy has multiple Stanley Cup rings and Brian Burke, who steadfastly remained loyal to the coaches he hired, has one.

And that happened well over a year ago--almost two years ago. It didn't happen this year--the Blue Jackets got bounced in the second round. I get not firing him after the big upset, but last offseason was the perfect time to do it.

And I don't buy for a parsec that a coaching candidate is going to pass up an opportunity because of supposed bad PR. These guys take one another's jobs all the damned time, they don't give a flying f*** what circumstances led to the last guy's ouster.

Dubois can't be the only player Tortorella is alienating in that locker room. If Lumbus wants to tie their fortunes to him, fine, go ahead. But they're going to sink right along with him.
 
henchman21

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Pokecheque said:
Yes, you do. Lou Lamoriello didn't hesitate to fire a coach if he felt the team wasn't performing to expectations. He literally fired Claude Julien on the eve of the playoffs. He's made no secret when he feels it's because the players quit on him and blamed them for forcing his hand, but he still did it. He has been less successful in the modern-day NHL but there's a reason that guy has multiple Stanley Cup rings and Brian Burke, who steadfastly remained loyal to the coaches he hired, has one.

And that happened well over a year ago--almost two years ago. It didn't happen this year--the Blue Jackets got bounced in the second round. I get not firing him after the big upset, but last offseason was the perfect time to do it.

And I don't buy for a parsec that a coaching candidate is going to pass up an opportunity because of supposed bad PR. These guys take one another's jobs all the damned time, they don't give a flying f*** what circumstances led to the last guy's ouster.

Dubois can't be the only player Tortorella is alienating in that locker room. If Lumbus wants to tie their fortunes to him, fine, go ahead. But they're going to sink right along with him.
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The bolded is the where this idea falls apart. The Blue Jackets in no way were not performing to expectations... they were exceeding expectations by a lot. Scroll back around here even, I got in numerous debates saying Columbus would compete for the playoff and either be in the wild card spot or just out of it. People thought I was crazy and stating how they were going to be bottom 5. Hockey media was all over the story of their downfall. Torts finished 3rd in Adams Trophy voting. He did a great job last year. I understand he is hell on players and wears out his welcome, but he did a great job last season.
 
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Pokecheque

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henchman24 said:
The bolded is the where this idea falls apart. The Blue Jackets in no way were not performing to expectations... they were exceeding expectations by a lot. Scroll back around here even, I got in numerous debates saying Columbus would compete for the playoff and either be in the wild card spot or just out of it. People thought I was crazy and stating how they were going to be bottom 5. Hockey media was all over the story of their downfall. Torts finished 3rd in Adams Trophy voting. He did a great job last year. I understand he is hell on players and wears out his welcome, but he did a great job last season.
Click to expand...

Again, go ahead, Lumbus. Lash yourselves to the mast of a sinking ship. Just because he "overachieved" the last two seasons does not mean that he should be given the benefit of the doubt in all situations. If the long-term viability of the franchise is in jeopardy, then the Jackets need to make the hard decisions. I get they're trying to "go for it" but this situation is literally costing them their best player.

And that idea doesn't fall apart. The Devils were well on their way to the playoffs when Lou shitcanned Julien--he saw a problem brewing and chose to take care of it right then and there, knowing full well it could backfire on him. But based purely on results, Lou should've stuck with Julien. If he was that kind of GM he wouldn't have won the Cup as much as he did.

Frankly, the notion of continuity in coaching is wildly overrated. IIRC Sullivan won his first Cup as an interim coach. No one wants an Edmonton Oilers situation where you're changing out the bench boss every year, but sticking with a coach you know is running the franchise aground is just foolish. It doesn't justify keeping an obviously toxic situation in place. I don't see any logic whatsoever in staying with Torts. None. They're getting diminishing returns already and have all but lost their franchise superstar. Long term he's doing more harm than good. Make the right decision and just get rid of him already, retool for next year. I don't know if firing Torts will save the situation with Dubois (not likely at this point) but if there was a season to do it, it's this one. Put an interim guy in place, ride it out, use the draft picks on something good.
 
henchman21

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Pokecheque said:
Again, go ahead, Lumbus. Lash yourselves to the mast of a sinking ship. Just because he "overachieved" the last two seasons does not mean that he should be given the benefit of the doubt in all situations. If the long-term viability of the franchise is in jeopardy, then the Jackets need to make the hard decisions. I get they're trying to "go for it" but this situation is literally costing them their best player.

And that idea doesn't fall apart. The Devils were well on their way to the playoffs when Lou shitcanned Julien--he saw a problem brewing and chose to take care of it right then and there, knowing full well it could backfire on him. But based purely on results, Lou should've stuck with Julien. If he was that kind of GM he wouldn't have won the Cup as much as he did.

Frankly, the notion of continuity in coaching is wildly overrated. IIRC Sullivan won his first Cup as an interim coach. No one wants an Edmonton Oilers situation where you're changing out the bench boss every year, but sticking with a coach you know is running the franchise aground is just foolish. It doesn't justify keeping an obviously toxic situation in place. I don't see any logic whatsoever in staying with Torts. None. They're getting diminishing returns already and have all but lost their franchise superstar. Long term he's doing more harm than good. Make the right decision and just get rid of him already, retool for next year. I don't know if firing Torts will save the situation with Dubois (not likely at this point) but if there was a season to do it, it's this one. Put an interim guy in place, ride it out, use the draft picks on something good.
Click to expand...

PLD is very good, but he isn't their best player or their second best player. Jones and Werenski are ahead of him.

The difference in a Cup contender firing their coach and the Jackets firing their coach is one of expectations. You can have a Cup team 'treading water' at a pace that is near the top of the league, but still needs that kick in the ass. This was a team that nobody gave a chance to and he took them to the playoffs and gave the Cup winners a series. He is a great coach and has done great things there. You don't fire him the offseason after what he has done last season and the previous seasons. Torts is by far the most successful coach in Columbus history and has exceeded the expectations nearly every year.

I agree continuity is overrated, and coaches can be swapped around... but a coach should be performing below expectations to get canned. Torts isn't and shouldn't get canned right now. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for Columbus to have a rough season. It would allow them to get a high pick to help replace PLD and would give a reason to part with Torts. At this point there is no saving the PLD situation, and there probably hasn't been for a while. Even if they fired Torts, he was going to want to move on.
 
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