2020/2021 Around the League Thread | Part 2

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Last one was at 1,000 posts. Continue here.

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[M2Beezy]

Anyone else find the American divisional games less interesting this year?

 

[Tables of Stats]

What?

Edmonton had 83 points last year, 5 ahead of us, 2nd in the division, 4th in the conference. 9th in the league.

If this is true please show me where the Oilers were in last season's playoffs? Also, as Larry said, why aren't you more concerned about their 5v5 play?

 

[MS]

If this is true please show me where the Oilers were in last season's playoffs? Also, as Larry said, why aren't you more concerned about their 5v5 play?

Well yes, obviously months later in the weird bubble they lost.

But in a 70-game sample size, they were 9th in the NHL. 70 game sample size in real NHL conditions >>> 4 game sample size in bizarre bubble conditions.

This is like saying the 11-12 Canucks were the 16th best team in the NHL after finishing 1st in the league and then losing to a team on an unprecedented hot streak while our leading scorer was injured.

As for the ES numbers, obviously that's a reasonable point. But Edmonton is a bit of a unicorn team with the best two forwards in the NHL, and also part of those ES struggles were terrible goaltending.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Well yes, obviously months later in the weird bubble they lost.

But in a 70-game sample size, they were 9th in the NHL. 70 game sample size in real NHL conditions >>> 4 game sample size in bizarre bubble conditions.

As for the ES numbers, obviously that's a reasonable point. But Edmonton is a bit of a unicorn team with the best two forwards in the NHL, and also part of those ES struggles were terrible goaltending.

I don’t understand you here — wouldn’t the team’s mediocrity despite having two of the top 5 players in the league suggest the team is poorly constructed rather than the opposite?

 

[Tables of Stats]

Well yes, obviously months later in the weird bubble they lost.

But in a 70-game sample size, they were 9th in the NHL. 70 game sample size in real NHL conditions >>> 4 game sample size in bizarre bubble conditions.

This is like saying the 11-12 Canucks were the 16th best team in the NHL after finishing 1st in the league and then losing to a team on an unprecedented hot streak while our leading scorer was injured.

As for the ES numbers, obviously that's a reasonable point. But Edmonton is a bit of a unicorn team with the best two forwards in the NHL, and also part of those ES struggles were terrible goaltending.

So does that make the 2011 Capitals the best team in the league then? They had the best record in the largest sample size afterall.

As for the 11-12 Canucks we were somewhere between 8th and 16th going out in round one. If you lose because one player is down, even your best player, you're not built well enough to grab a cup.

Let's be honest, this is you having an agenda as usual. I'm just waiting to see how this twists back around into a conversation about how Benning sucks.

 

[Pip]

I don’t understand you here — wouldn’t the team’s mediocrity despite having two of the top 5 players in the league suggest the team is poorly constructed rather than the opposite?

I guess I would question in which way is it poorly constructed? They’ve done a poor job with their bottom 6 and with goaltending. Defense is a work in progress. Where I take issue is people thinking that that having (and paying) McDavid and Draisaitl make them poorly constructed and the answer is to move one of them (Draisaitl). Had they gotten Markstrom and Klefbom was healthy I would see them as the class of this division.

 

[Pip]

Had to go back to see what @Norade was taking issue with. It’s bizarre to me to evaluate the Oilers based off their performance in a COVID bubble playoff over what they accomplished in the regular season.

 

[Tables of Stats]

Had to go back to see what @Norade was taking issue with. It’s bizarre to me to evaluate the Oilers based off their performance in a COVID bubble playoff over what they accomplished in the regular season.

So some post-season tournaments are cool and we should judge teams on how they do in them and other post-season tournaments don't count... Seems logical to me.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Agreed, all post-season tournaments should be weighted equally. This is why I think Vancouver's President's Trophies should be revoked, since they couldn't win the Stanley Cup those seasons.

 

[Pip]

So some post-season tournaments are cool and we should judge teams on how they do in them and other post-season tournaments don't count... Seems logical to me.

I think in general post season success isn’t the best way to judge how a team will perform going forward. There is a ton of luck in the playoffs with goalies/teams getting hot, and a single bounce being the difference between choking and a playoff performer. I just think last year was especially poor for evaluating teams given the circumstances.

 

[Fatass]

Agreed, all post-season tournaments should be weighted equally. This is why I think Vancouver's President's Trophies should be revoked, since they couldn't win the Stanley Cup those seasons.

Where did we draft in round one following those years? The draft position (before the silly lottery placing) is inversely proportional to a team’s season success.

 

[Pip]

 

[Pip]

Obviously this is likely nothing, but man oh man I would love for the Canucks to go after Konecny. Having him on a line with Horvat and Hoglander would be a treat

 

[Tables of Stats]

I think in general post season success isn’t the best way to judge how a team will perform going forward. There is a ton of luck in the playoffs with goalies/teams getting hot, and a single bounce being the difference between choking and a playoff performer. I just think last year was especially poor for evaluating teams given the circumstances.

So I guess we as fans should have been happy with our team in both 11-12 and 12-13 because we had a good regular season, right?

 

[Fatass]

I think in general post season success isn’t the best way to judge how a team will perform going forward. There is a ton of luck in the playoffs with goalies/teams getting hot, and a single bounce being the difference between choking and a playoff performer. I just think last year was especially poor for evaluating teams given the circumstances.

Agreed. We got very fortunate to actually get into the bubble hockey. We we on a losing trend for sure, when the season stopped. Then during this off season Benning took us backwards.

 

[Pip]

So I guess we as fans should have been happy with our team in both 11-12 and 12-13 because we had a good regular season, right?

Winning the cup is the goal but playoff success in any given year isn’t necessarily the best judge of where your team is at because the playoffs are such a small sample size influenced by factors outside of team control. I’m glad you brought up the 2011 team honestly. That was the best Canucks team ever constructed, had an amazing season and easily could have won the cup. The fact that they lost in game 7 was devastating but doesn’t take away from the quality of that roster. In one game anything can happen. In one playoff series anything can happen.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Watching this Sabres/Devils game ... Sabres look *a lot* better than they have in previous years, but they have $6M Kyle Okposo on their 3rd line, and $9M Jeff Skinner on their 4th. Brutal.

 

[MS]

I don’t understand you here — wouldn’t the team’s mediocrity despite having two of the top 5 players in the league suggest the team is poorly constructed rather than the opposite?

Of course they're a flawed team.

If you track this discussion back, it started with a post by krutov saying they should trade McDavid because they're 'never digging out of their hole'. And this is clearly false because - flawed team or not - they dug out of that hole last year.

Biggest reason they're poorly constructed is consistently terrible goaltending.

And I'd say the same for us if someone was arguing that we should trade Pettersson because we're 'never digging out of our hole'. I don't see why people are taking issue with this?

 

[mriswith]

Konecny would cost a fortune. Even if something is going on there, I don't know that we have anything that makes sense for both teams.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Watching this Sabres/Devils game ... Sabres look *a lot* better than they have in previous years, but they have $6M Kyle Okposo on their 3rd line, and $9M Jeff Skinner on their 4th. Brutal.

Between chi/cbj last night and this game it feels like a year since an exciting game was on..
4pm can't come soon enough.


They're not too far off from being competitive, but those contracts are really holding them back.

I wonder if there's a Skinner for Neal deal to be made, certainly Buffalo would like the cheaper contract and McDavid has to be able to make skinner produce, he's got the skills and speed. Has to be an upgrade on freaking kassian.
McDavid is being wasted with terrible linemates

 

[canuckking1]

Watching this Sabres/Devils game ... Sabres look *a lot* better than they have in previous years, but they have $6M Kyle Okposo on their 3rd line, and $9M Jeff Skinner on their 4th. Brutal.

Wasting Skinner. As bad as he’s been putting him on the fourth line to start training camp was idiotic.

 

[Pip]

Konecny would cost a fortune. Even if something is going on there, I don't know that we have anything that makes sense for both teams.

Something around Boeser would be interesting. Not sure if that would be what they’re looking for though. It’s a pipe dream to get someone like Konecny but I’ve just loved him as a player dating back to the draft.

 

[Tables of Stats]

Of course they're a flawed team.

If you track this discussion back, it started with a post by krutov saying they should trade McDavid because they're 'never digging out of their hole'. And this is clearly false because - flawed team or not - they dug out of that hole last year.

Biggest reason they're poorly constructed is consistently terrible goaltending.

And I'd say the same for us if someone was arguing that we should trade Pettersson because we're 'never digging out of our hole'. I don't see why people are taking issue with this?

We're approaching the 20% mark of the season and it would be hard to say the Oiler's defense has been better than ours thus far. Heck, the advanced stats going into the season suggest they have the worst defense in the North division and you're claiming it's just goaltending that's holding them back.

Does that look like a team that's built to win?

Now bonus points, if they were 9th best last season, they weren't by points percentage they were 12th, let's look at the teams on each side of them in both total points and points percentage and see how they actually stack up.

Those were 11th and 13th by points percentage last season and they seem to stand out as miles better than the Oilers. Let's look at the teams who're 8th and 10th by raw points now!

Yeah, even Dallas looks to be better than the Oilers which is funny since the only issue the Oil should have, by MS logic, is poor goaltending...

 

[VanillaCoke]

We're approaching the 20% mark of the season and it would be hard to say the Oiler's defense has been better than ours thus far. Heck, the advanced stats going into the season suggest they have the worst defense in the North division and you're claiming it's just goaltending that's holding them back.

View attachment 390325

Does that look like a team that's built to win?

Now bonus points, if they were 9th best last season, they weren't by points percentage they were 12th, let's look at the teams on each side of them in both total points and points percentage and see how they actually stack up.

View attachment 390326

View attachment 390327

Those were 11th and 13th by points percentage last season and they seem to stand out as miles better than the Oilers. Let's look at the teams who're 8th and 10th by raw points now!

View attachment 390328

View attachment 390331

Yeah, even Dallas looks to be better than the Oilers which is funny since the only issue the Oil should have, by MS logic, is poor goaltending...

What are you even talking about?

You're arguing with yourself, nobody is saying its only goaltending, although Smith and koskinen is a terrible tandem.

As is abundantly clear if you're reading along, everyone is saying bottom 6, defense, including losing klefbom, and goaltending.
It's not a secret.

Idk if you're being purposefully disingenuous, obtuse, argumentative or all of the above.