Prospect Info: 2019 Prospects PART 2

[timw33]

So a neutral site ranked our prospect pool 4th in NHL. Does that make you question your analysis? If you are that far off with this analysis does it make you question your own deductive abilities?

For a 4th ranked prospect system, you would expect that we'd be cranking out a new non-first round picked NHL pro every season, or at least a handful of successful AHL pros (see Tampa and Syracuse for what a Top-5 system actually looks like). We just had a wave of promising players who all had great JR careers hit our AHL system and all fall flat on their faces—that alone should downgrade us immensely.

 

[Lindgren]

So a neutral site ranked our prospect pool 4th in NHL. Does that make you question your analysis? If you are that far off with this analysis does it make you question your own deductive abilities?

I couldn't read the article you're referencing, as it's behind a paywall, but my sense from reading the beginning was that they were considering all players 23 and under in their evaluation. Am I right about that?

 

[1440]

For a 4th ranked prospect system, you would expect that we'd be cranking out a new non-first round picked NHL pro every season, or at least a handful of successful AHL pros (see Tampa and Syracuse for what a Top-5 system actually looks like). We just had a wave of promising players who all had great JR careers hit our AHL system and all fall flat on their faces—that alone should downgrade us immensely.

Don't mistake a prospect pool for prospect development. No doubt the Canucks have good young prospects. They should given recent draft positions. Whether or not they can actually help these players reach their full potential is a second issue entirely.

Perhaps they have many good prospects playing in Europe or in the NCAA rather than in the AHL. Perhaps it is better that way given their track record.

 

[VanJack]

Don't mistake a prospect pool for prospect development. No doubt the Canucks have good young prospects. They should given recent draft positions. Whether or not they can actually help these players reach their full potential is a second issue entirely.

Perhaps they have many good prospects playing in Europe or in the NCAA rather than in the AHL. Perhaps it is better that way given their track record.

Actually, some of the better Canuck prospects have little to do with 'draft position'. Guys like Gaudette, Madden, Tryamkin, Hoglander, DiPietro, Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek, Demko and Lockwood were all drafted well after the first round had come and gone. So theoretically anybody could have drafted them.

Obviously not all of them will work out. But they do form part of an impressive prospect pool.

 

[Pip]

Actually, some of the better Canuck prospects have little to do with 'draft position'. Guys like Gaudette, Madden, Tryamkin, Hoglander, DiPietro, Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek, Demko and Lockwood were all drafted well after the first round had come and gone. So theoretically anybody could have drafted them.

Obviously not all of them will work out. But they do form part of an impressive prospect pool.

I’m failing to see anything impressive about that list. Other teams have “promising” non-first rounders as well. Never mind that some of those players are straight up bad prospects

 

[MS]

Actually, some of the better Canuck prospects have little to do with 'draft position'. Guys like Gaudette, Madden, Tryamkin, Hoglander, DiPietro, Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek, Demko and Lockwood were all drafted well after the first round had come and gone. So theoretically anybody could have drafted them.

Obviously not all of them will work out. But they do form part of an impressive prospect pool.

Literally every team has lists like this.

None of those guys have done anything in the NHL aside from one bottom-pairing season from a guy now back in Russia.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Sporting News has Canucks prospect pool at #8

8. Vancouver Canucks

2018-19 rank: 3rd
Key additions: Nils Hoglander (RW), Vasily Podkolzin (RW)
Graduated: Adam Gaudette (C), Elias Pettersson (C)
Traded/not signed: Matt Brassard (RHD), Jonathan Dahlen (LW, SJS), Kristoffer Gunnarsson (LHD)
Jim Benning's plan to beef up his organization with speed and skill continues to achieve benchmarks, as the Canucks not only received a Calder Trophy-winning season from electrifying 2017 first-round pick Elias Pettersson but now have playmaking puck rusher Quinn Hughes ready to challenge for a full-time role and his own hardware. Vancouver added a bulldog of a competitor in Russian-trained winger Vasily Podkolzin, who was the 10th pick in June although he likely stays overseas for at least another season.
Benning and staff also scooped up feisty forward Nils Hoglander from Sweden and speedy center Tyler Madden from Northeastern who tied for fourth in freshman scoring in Hockey East. This group, along with two stud goalie prospects, Thatcher Demko and Michael DiPietro, represent a sizable chunk of the organization's future, one that already includes established NHL producers like Bo Horvat and Brock Boeser. Now that the nucleus has formed, the Canucks can patiently follow the progress of an impressive tier of potential point-producing defensemen like Olli Juolevi, Toni Utunen, Jett Woo, and Jack Rathbone.

PROSPECT	POS.	2019-20 TEAM (Proj.)	ACQUIRED
1. Quinn Hughes	LHD	Vancouver (NHL)	1st/2018
2. Vasily Podkolzin	RW	SKA-Neva (VHL)	1st/2019
3. Thatcher Demko	G	Vancouver (NHL)	2nd/2014
4. Nils Hoglander	RW	Rogle (SHL)	2nd/2019
5. Jett Woo	RHD	Calgary (WHL)	2nd/2018
6. Michael DiPietro	G	Utica (AHL)	3rd/2017
7. Olli Juolevi	LHD	Utica (AHL)	1st/2016
8. Tyler Madden	C	Northeastern (HE)	3rd/2018
9. Jack Rathbone	LHD	Harvard (ECAC)	4th/2017
10. Toni Utunen	LHD	Tappara (SM-Liiga)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Hodgy]

Actually, some of the better Canuck prospects have little to do with 'draft position'. Guys like Gaudette, Madden, Tryamkin, Hoglander, DiPietro, Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek, Demko and Lockwood were all drafted well after the first round had come and gone. So theoretically anybody could have drafted them.

Obviously not all of them will work out. But they do form part of an impressive prospect pool.

In what world were Lind and Hoglander drafted "well after the first round had come and gone". They were both early 2nd round picks. Try to be fair here.

 

[Tables of Stats]

Sporting News has Canucks prospect pool at #8

8. Vancouver Canucks

2018-19 rank: 3rd
Key additions: Nils Hoglander (RW), Vasily Podkolzin (RW)
Graduated: Adam Gaudette (C), Elias Pettersson (C)
Traded/not signed: Matt Brassard (RHD), Jonathan Dahlen (LW, SJS), Kristoffer Gunnarsson (LHD)
Jim Benning's plan to beef up his organization with speed and skill continues to achieve benchmarks, as the Canucks not only received a Calder Trophy-winning season from electrifying 2017 first-round pick Elias Pettersson but now have playmaking puck rusher Quinn Hughes ready to challenge for a full-time role and his own hardware. Vancouver added a bulldog of a competitor in Russian-trained winger Vasily Podkolzin, who was the 10th pick in June although he likely stays overseas for at least another season.
Benning and staff also scooped up feisty forward Nils Hoglander from Sweden and speedy center Tyler Madden from Northeastern who tied for fourth in freshman scoring in Hockey East. This group, along with two stud goalie prospects, Thatcher Demko and Michael DiPietro, represent a sizable chunk of the organization's future, one that already includes established NHL producers like Bo Horvat and Brock Boeser. Now that the nucleus has formed, the Canucks can patiently follow the progress of an impressive tier of potential point-producing defensemen like Olli Juolevi, Toni Utunen, Jett Woo, and Jack Rathbone.

PROSPECT	POS.	2019-20 TEAM (Proj.)	ACQUIRED
1. Quinn Hughes	LHD	Vancouver (NHL)	1st/2018
2. Vasily Podkolzin	RW	SKA-Neva (VHL)	1st/2019
3. Thatcher Demko	G	Vancouver (NHL)	2nd/2014
4. Nils Hoglander	RW	Rogle (SHL)	2nd/2019
5. Jett Woo	RHD	Calgary (WHL)	2nd/2018
6. Michael DiPietro	G	Utica (AHL)	3rd/2017
7. Olli Juolevi	LHD	Utica (AHL)	1st/2016
8. Tyler Madden	C	Northeastern (HE)	3rd/2018
9. Jack Rathbone	LHD	Harvard (ECAC)	4th/2017
10. Toni Utunen	LHD	Tappara (SM-Liiga)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I'm not sure that any method that only counts players that haven't made the NHL yet is a sound one. I think it's far fairer to look at young players that have made the NHL as well. My criteria would be they have to meet one of the following requirements (1) be under 23 years old, (2) have played 3 or fewer NHL seasons.

With those criteria in place that list would also have to account for Pettersson, Boeser, Gaudette, Goldobin, MacEwen, Tryamkin, and Virtanen. Horvat just graduated from that list this past season. Do most teams have that level of youth talent on the team (or in Tryamkins case hold his rights)? I'd suggest that Pettersson and Boeser alone would raise our stock above top 8.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm not sure that any method that only counts players that haven't made the NHL yet is a sound one. I think it's far fairer to look at young players that have made the NHL as well. My criteria would be they have to meet one of the following requirements (1) be under 23 years old, (2) have played 3 or fewer NHL seasons.

With those criteria in place that list would also have to account for Pettersson, Boeser, Gaudette, Goldobin, MacEwen, Tryamkin, and Virtanen. Horvat just graduated from that list this past season. Do most teams have that level of youth talent on the team (or in Tryamkins case hold his rights)? I'd suggest that Pettersson and Boeser alone would raise our stock above top 8.

I see what you are saying but a guy who has played 3 NHL seasons, say like McDavid did and EP40 will, should not be considered as a "prospect".

For example no one ever thought of Brock as a prospect last year did they?

That type of player has arrived.

I can see a threshold of being eligible for the Calder as being reasonable but your criteria is more of a "who has the best U23 players & Prospects"

 

[Tables of Stats]

I see what you are saying but a guy who has played 3 NHL seasons, say like McDavid did and EP40 will, should not be considered as a "prospect".

For example no one ever thought of Brock as a prospect last year did they?

That type of player has arrived.

I can see a threshold of being eligible for the Calder as being reasonable but your criteria is more of a "who has the best U23 players & Prospects"

Call it 'Best U23 players and Prospects' if you need to but, and this isn't aimed at you, it's unfair to look at a system graduating talented players swiftly without including those players. The number of people in this forum who're basically covering their eyes and ignoring graduated prospects while saying that our prospect pool looks weak is staggering and articles written without taking into account recently graduated prospects doesn't help any.

 

[wetcoast]

Call it 'Best U23 players and Prospects' if you need to but, and this isn't aimed at you, it's unfair to look at a system graduating talented players swiftly without including those players. The number of people in this forum who're basically covering their eyes and ignoring graduated prospects while saying that our prospect pool looks weak is staggering and articles written without taking into account recently graduated prospects doesn't help any.

Sure the Canucks have graduated prospects but so have other teams.

People can use whatever criteria they want but the bottom line is that our prospects system of players not in the NHL needs a ton of work still, especially on the back end.

 

[ChilliBilly]

Sure the Canucks have graduated prospects but so have other teams.

People can use whatever criteria they want but the bottom line is that our prospects system of players not in the NHL needs a ton of work still, especially on the back end.

Hughes Rathbone Woo Juolevi in the system, Brisebois and Sautner can also play, and the odds are that Tryamkin will return this year after his season is done. Add that to Edler Tanev Stecher Myers and Benn and the problem will be fitting them all in.

The major problem is going to be the bloody salary cap.

 

[wetcoast]

Hughes Rathbone Woo Juolevi in the system, Brisebois and Sautner can also play, and the odds are that Tryamkin will return this year after his season is done. Add that to Edler Tanev Stecher Myers and Benn and the problem will be fitting them all in.

The major problem is going to be the bloody salary cap.

I like the first 3 guys but only Hughes is a definite top pairing type of guy.

With Juolevi it's still a project.

With Trayamkin who knows what his ceiling is maybe a #3 and does he really want to come back?

As for the other 2 AHLers they might get a cup of coffee in the NHL but at best they will be fringe NHLers.

Tanev and Edler can be expected to miss time as well so More major work needs to be done on the back end IMO.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

Where are Canucks on Pronman's list? He is at 10 Chicago have I missed Canucks or are they are in the top 10? They should be based on their place drafting and having their 1st in 2016 18 and 19 count. However defn not bottom third.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Sporting News has Canucks prospect pool at #8

8. Vancouver Canucks

2018-19 rank: 3rd
Key additions: Nils Hoglander (RW), Vasily Podkolzin (RW)
Graduated: Adam Gaudette (C), Elias Pettersson (C)
Traded/not signed: Matt Brassard (RHD), Jonathan Dahlen (LW, SJS), Kristoffer Gunnarsson (LHD)
Jim Benning's plan to beef up his organization with speed and skill continues to achieve benchmarks, as the Canucks not only received a Calder Trophy-winning season from electrifying 2017 first-round pick Elias Pettersson but now have playmaking puck rusher Quinn Hughes ready to challenge for a full-time role and his own hardware. Vancouver added a bulldog of a competitor in Russian-trained winger Vasily Podkolzin, who was the 10th pick in June although he likely stays overseas for at least another season.
Benning and staff also scooped up feisty forward Nils Hoglander from Sweden and speedy center Tyler Madden from Northeastern who tied for fourth in freshman scoring in Hockey East. This group, along with two stud goalie prospects, Thatcher Demko and Michael DiPietro, represent a sizable chunk of the organization's future, one that already includes established NHL producers like Bo Horvat and Brock Boeser. Now that the nucleus has formed, the Canucks can patiently follow the progress of an impressive tier of potential point-producing defensemen like Olli Juolevi, Toni Utunen, Jett Woo, and Jack Rathbone.

PROSPECT	POS.	2019-20 TEAM (Proj.)	ACQUIRED
1. Quinn Hughes	LHD	Vancouver (NHL)	1st/2018
2. Vasily Podkolzin	RW	SKA-Neva (VHL)	1st/2019
3. Thatcher Demko	G	Vancouver (NHL)	2nd/2014
4. Nils Hoglander	RW	Rogle (SHL)	2nd/2019
5. Jett Woo	RHD	Calgary (WHL)	2nd/2018
6. Michael DiPietro	G	Utica (AHL)	3rd/2017
7. Olli Juolevi	LHD	Utica (AHL)	1st/2016
8. Tyler Madden	C	Northeastern (HE)	3rd/2018
9. Jack Rathbone	LHD	Harvard (ECAC)	4th/2017
10. Toni Utunen	LHD	Tappara (SM-Liiga)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Did I miss something or is Utunen being referneced as a "point-producing defensemen" seems odd? Also him making top 10 on the list...I wouldn't put him in but thats just my person preference.
Seems kind of light in top end talent for a team ranked #8, but I haven't seen other teams lists.

 

[Hansen]

Did I miss something or is Utunen being referneced as a "point-producing defensemen" seems odd? Also him making top 10 on the list...I wouldn't put him in but thats just my person preference.
Seems kind of light in top end talent for a team ranked #8, but I haven't seen other teams lists.

He had a very good tournament a couple months back and scored some high profile goals against Canada, turning him into a "legit prospect" for guys who are too lazy to watch EU streams in the morning

 

[WetcoastOrca]

An interesting question.
Has any team ever had one of the top three rookie of the year finalists three years in a row post expansion.
If Quinn Hughes was a finalist this upcoming year (a big if for sure) then I’m just wondering if this has ever happened. I’m assuming that multiple teams have had finalists two years in a row. Colorado won it two out of three years once with Landeskog (2012) and McKinnon (2014) but not in back to back years.

 

[wetcoast]

An interesting question.
Has any team ever had one of the top three rookie of the year finalists three years in a row post expansion.
If Quinn Hughes was a finalist this upcoming year (a big if for sure) then I’m just wondering if this has ever happened. I’m assuming that multiple teams have had finalists two years in a row. Colorado won it two out of three years once with Landeskog (2012) and McKinnon (2014) but not in back to back years.

NYI had 2 two year runs (with 3 winners) over a 5 year period with

Billy Harris 3rd
Potvin 1st
skip year
Trottier 1st
Bossy 1st

Now we can only dream that our 3 will be even 90% of what the NYI big 3 were like.

 

[Bad Goalie]

NYI had 2 two year runs (with 3 winners) over a 5 year period with

Billy Harris 3rd
Potvin 1st
skip year
Trottier 1st
Bossy 1st

Now we can only dream that our 3 will be even 90% of what the NYI big 3 were like.

What a crew GM Bill Torrey assembled for Al Arbour to mold into what was to become a dynasty. They had their top core, but man what a group of players they had around them.

Mike Bossy, Bryan Trottier, Denis Potvin

Which of the following would you like to call the core and who was a supporting player?

Clark Gillies
Bob Nystrom
Butch Goring
Bob Bourne
Anders Kallur
Duane Sutter
Garry Howatt
Wayne Merrick
Billy Harris
John Tonelli
Stefan Persson
Steve Tambellini
Dave Langevin
Ken Morrow
Bob Lorimer
Gord Lane
Lorne Henning
Billy Smith
Glenn "Chico" Resch
Mike McEwen
Brent Sutter
Tomas Jonsson

Pretty good bunch to say the least. Loved those guys. It was quite spectacular having hooked into them from the first day of their inception in 1972 and the horrible times they went through to reach that pinnacle from '79-80 to '82-83.
They lost to Gretzky and the new dynasty Edmonton Oilers on their quest for five in five in the finals of '83-84.

I began my adult life just out of college in 1972 and we matured together, LOL.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Good write up by Steve Kournianos of the Draft Analysis of theU-20 Four Nations tournament:
“Very entertaining tournament. More physical than an OHL or QMJHL game.

Didn't mention it in the write-up but Penguins prospect Santeri Airola was excellent as well. Seems quiet but explodes up ice and was dangerous every time he had the puck regardless of whether he had open ice.

Podkolzin could have had five or six assists. His playmaking, vision and timing were among the best of any forward in the tournament.

Dorofeyev should have been a first-round pick. Morozov and Hoglander too. Hoglander dominated this tournament last year and was the only Swedish forward worth the price of admission.”

 

[Lindgren]

Good write up by Steve Kournianos of the Draft Analysis of theU-20 Four Nations tournament:
“Very entertaining tournament. More physical than an OHL or QMJHL game.

Didn't mention it in the write-up but Penguins prospect Santeri Airola was excellent as well. Seems quiet but explodes up ice and was dangerous every time he had the puck regardless of whether he had open ice.

Podkolzin could have had five or six assists. His playmaking, vision and timing were among the best of any forward in the tournament.

Dorofeyev should have been a first-round pick. Morozov and Hoglander too. Hoglander dominated this tournament last year and was the only Swedish forward worth the price of admission.”

Here's the link:
Recap: U20 Four Nations Tournament (August, 2019) – The Draft Analyst

"Few Swedish forwards were consistent in their ability to generate offense, but Vancouver Canucks prospect Nils Hoglander had several instances where he flashed his high-end puck skills and vision."​

 

[VanJack]

Agree or disagree about the state or ranking of the Canucks prospect pool. But I can't ever remember a time when the Canucks had more prospects who look like they might have major impacts on their respective leagues, and will be fascinating to monitor this winter.

Serious prospects in the NCAA; OHL; KHL; SHL and even in Utica. Obviously it's possible that only a small number of them make it. But the list, led by Podkolzin; Hoglander and Madden will help diehard Canuck fans navigate a long hockey season, where undoubtedly the big club will struggle again at times.

 

[DarrenX]

Sporting News has Canucks prospect pool at #8

PROSPECT	POS.	2019-20 TEAM (Proj.)	ACQUIRED
1. Quinn Hughes	LHD	Vancouver (NHL)	1st/2018
2. Vasily Podkolzin	RW	SKA-Neva (VHL)	1st/2019
3. Thatcher Demko	G	Vancouver (NHL)	2nd/2014
4. Nils Hoglander	RW	Rogle (SHL)	2nd/2019
5. Jett Woo	RHD	Calgary (WHL)	2nd/2018
6. Michael DiPietro	G	Utica (AHL)	3rd/2017
7. Olli Juolevi	LHD	Utica (AHL)	1st/2016
8. Tyler Madden	C	Northeastern (HE)	3rd/2018
9. Jack Rathbone	LHD	Harvard (ECAC)	4th/2017
10. Toni Utunen	LHD	Tappara (SM-Liiga)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I have no interest at all in a "ranking system" that gives the Canucks credit for picking Juolevi but does *not* give teams credit for picking vastly superior (so far) players like Tkachuk or McAvoy.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I have no interest at all in a "ranking system" that gives the Canucks credit for picking Juolevi but does *not* give teams credit for picking vastly superior (so far) players like Tkachuk or McAvoy.

the ranking system you want is called the standings.