2019 NHL Draft, #LoseForHughes, etc.

[Tv9924]

Yes but if it is offset by an even greater paucity at another key position (defense) then it creates an imbalance of assets. You can only play your Centres (at that position) for 60 total minutes per game. Assuming Pettersson and (say) Jack Hughes/Alex Newhook get the lions share of minutes (40) then the final 20 is split between Horvat and Gaudette. This is great depth, but perhaps not as valuable as 25+ minutes of another top pair defenseman to play with Pettersson and Hughes/Newhook. Moving the asset from a 3C to a top pair D allows it to be used more and to increase the effectiveness of your top 6 centres. Then Gaudette replaces up most of the traded Horvat’s minutes and the new 4C plays limited minutes (in this hypothetical).

Depth is great but only if you have it everywhere, otherwise you are hoarding at one position at the expense of another one.

I understand what you're saying, the only worry I have is that I don't trust Benning to make the right trade.

 

[Bleach Clean]

craziest comment I've read.

Because? Elaborate.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

He will be 35 by the time we make the playoffs.

I would not move Horvat. You need players like Horvat for the playoffs.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

If a yoneis crazy enough to give you a 1st for Edler you take it and run. He has a no movement tho and won’t waive it so it’s a moot point.

Tanev.... likely won’t get a 1st for him either. Maybe a late first but doubt it. He’s not a top pairing guy on most teams.

And then become the Edmonton Oilers with no guaranteed 1st overall pick even if we're last.

In my opinion you still need guys like Edler and Tanev to stabilize the defense, so the young guys are not always trapped in the defensive zone.

 

[Zombotron]

RE: BCHL

Just skimmed the BCHL's NCAA commitment list, looking for first-time draft-eligible players with 2019-20 NCAA commitments. I obviously know nothing about any of these players aside from Newhook and Rizzo (whom I've seen going late-first/early-second in early mocks). Thought I'd put this list together in case any of you have the opportunity to see these players live and can come back with your observations. Maybe one or two of these other dudes becomes a late-round candidate

Team	Player	Position	Points in D-1	DOB	Commitment
Victoria	Alex Newhook	C	66P in 45GP / Playoffs 9 points in 12 GP	2001/01/28	Boston College
Penticton	Massimo Rizzo	F	39P in 50G / Playoffs 10P in 11GP	2001/06/13	University of North Dakota
Langley	Ethan Leyh	F	31P in 53G / Playoffs 7P in 6GP	2001/06/07	University of Wisconsin
Vernon	Alex Swetlikoff	F	15P in 51G / Playoffs 4P in 10GP	2001/07/06	University of Denver
Prince George	Layton Ahac	D	28P in 57GP / Playoffs 5P in 24GP	2001/02/22	Ohio State
Wenatchee	Nick Kent	D	0P in 24GP / Playoffs 0P in 16GP	2001/02/01	Quinnipiac
Alberni	Keaton Mastrodonato	C	42P in 58GP / Playoffs 2P in 7GP	2000/09/24	Canisius

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Kakko's play along the boards with his ability to pivot, stickhandle around opponents and protect the puck with his frame remind me a lot of Gabe Vilardi.

Kakko has good, but not great straight-line speed -- better than Vilardi does -- but his edge work and ability to retain the puck after eluding defenders is excellent. He plays a European-style power forward game, comparable to Filip Forsberg and Vilardi in a lot of ways: he isn't going to overwhelm the opposition with brute north-south strength and speed or physicality, but has the size, balance, agility and puck skills to protect the puck and maneuver with it in tight spaces. Raphael Lavoie is that speedy, aggressive power forward type.

He hounds the puck and plays a patient possession game, fighting to keep the puck when the opposition is draped all over him in order to open up teammates for pass or create a chance for himself; he'll also carry it around the zone if he sees space available to put himself in a better position to make a play.

There is some great footage of him from the 2018 U18s. bigwhite06 (Feebster on HF) and a new channel called Hockey Prospects Center both do video packages that are more than just goal/assist highlights; rather, their videos show the player's best plays, from takeaways to scoring chances to great passes as well.

I find that Hockey Prospects Center's Kaako video is more tightly-edited, with more plays shown and fewer replays of the same clips; both videos overlap in terms of a lot of footage and are about the same length, but this one flows more quickly -- video isn't quite as crisp as Feebster's, though:

 

[PuckMunchkin]

craziest comment I've read.

This is the kind of stuff you need to do when your rebuild stalls.

 

[Superlative Soup]

Kakko's play along the boards with his ability to pivot, stickhandle around opponents and protect the puck with his frame remind me a lot of Gabe Vilardi.

Kakko has good, but not great straight-line speed -- better than Vilardi does -- but his edge work and ability to retain the puck after eluding defenders is excellent. He plays a European-style power forward game, comparable to Filip Forsberg and Vilardi in a lot of ways: he isn't going to overwhelm the opposition with brute north-south strength and speed or physicality, but has the size, balance, agility and puck skills to protect the puck and maneuver with it in tight spaces. Raphael Lavoie is that speedy, aggressive power forward type.

He hounds the puck and plays a patient possession game, fighting to keep the puck when the opposition is draped all over him in order to open up teammates for pass or create a chance for himself; he'll also carry it around the zone if he sees space available to put himself in a better position to make a play.

There is some great footage of him from the 2018 U18s. bigwhite06 (Feebster on HF) and a new channel called Hockey Prospects Center both do video packages that are more than just goal/assist highlights; rather, their videos show the player's best plays, from takeaways to scoring chances to great passes as well.

I find that Hockey Prospects Center's Kaako video is more tightly-edited, with more plays shown and fewer replays of the same clips; both videos overlap in terms of a lot of footage and are about the same length, but this one flows more quickly -- video isn't quite as crisp as Feebster's, though:

He is going to be a puck possession monster.

 

[lawrence]

This is the kind of stuff you need to do when your rebuild stalls.

You mean trade your future captain?

got it. canucks fans from hfboards.com ftw.

 

[CanaFan]

You mean trade your future captain?

got it. canucks fans from hfboards.com ftw.

Maybe? Captains and even *future* captains aren’t untradeable or so I hear.

 

[lawrence]

Maybe? Captains and even *future* captains aren’t untradeable or so I hear.

ok let me reword it.

Your ok with trading Bo Horvat?

 

[CanaFan]

ok let me reword it.

Your ok with trading Bo Horvat?

For the right return?

Absolutely.

I’ve never understood people who object to the idea of trading a player without any regard to what you’d be getting back in the hypothetical. How can you object without knowing the specific return being imagined or considered? Do you just assume it’s for a poor return or something?

 

[CherryToke]

Two good or even upgraded centers is not enough for me to look into trading Horvat (i'd move someone to the wing) but if a team came calling with a Seth Jones type offer, it would be hard to turn down. It would have to be a very clear win for me to do it because I remember what Horvat looked like in the playoffs a few years ago..

 

[lawrence]

For the right return?

Absolutely.

I’ve never understood people who object to the idea of trading a player without any regard to what you’d be getting back in the hypothetical. How can you object without knowing the specific return being imagined or considered? Do you just assume it’s for a poor return or something?

a scenario like this is not very common and unthinkable at this point for a team like the Vancouver Canucks. Of course I will not object to trading lets say Brock Boesser if the price was right, but at this point in this phase of the Canucks direction right now, its unlikely scenerio that Horvat is put up as trade bait or a trade option or even Boeser. so of course I'm a little surprised the idea is brought up.


"Do you just assume it’s for a poor return or something?"

ok then, lets lalk what is a fair trade for Bo f in horvat at this point?

 

[Grub]

You also need top end defencemen in the playoffs.

I doubt you can get a top end Defencemen for Horvat.

 

[lawrence]

I doubt you can get a top end Defencemen for Horvat.

what is everyone's definition of a top end Defencemen? different from user to user here. such a loose term.

 

[kanuck87]

a scenario like this is not very common and unthinkable at this point for a team like the Vancouver Canucks. Of course I will not object to trading lets say Brock Boesser if the price was right, but at this point in this phase of the Canucks direction right now, its unlikely scenerio that Horvat is put up as trade bait or a trade option or even Boeser. so of course I'm a little surprised the idea is brought up.


"Do you just assume it’s for a poor return or something?"

ok then, lets lalk what is a fair trade for Bo f in horvat at this point?

Why would it matter what a fair trade looks like? Players better than Horvat have been traded before. Look at the Ryan Johansen/Seth Jones trade. Or the Subban/Weber trade.

Horvat isn't some kind of special player. He's not untouchable.

 

[Bleach Clean]

a scenario like this is not very common and unthinkable at this point for a team like the Vancouver Canucks. Of course I will not object to trading lets say Brock Boesser if the price was right, but at this point in this phase of the Canucks direction right now, its unlikely scenerio that Horvat is put up as trade bait or a trade option or even Boeser. so of course I'm a little surprised the idea is brought up.


"Do you just assume it’s for a poor return or something?"

ok then, lets lalk what is a fair trade for Bo f in horvat at this point?

Well if Dobson tracks like a #2 Dman, and the Isles are desperate for C depth...?

It doesn’t have to be a common scenario. Johansen for Jones wasn’t common either. It’s a specific trade made to fill a need by giving up a surplus asset.

It’s not realistic right now. Pettersson has to first establish that he can be an NHL C, and they still have to draft one of the top5 Cs in this draft. If they do both, then absolutely it’s a discussion. It makes no sense to keep Horvat as a 3C.

Odds are, they shift Pettersson back to RW to make due. All depends upon what’s on the table at that point. Unthinkable? Hardly.

 

[lawrence]

Why would it matter what a fair trade looks like? Players better than Horvat have been traded before. Look at the Ryan Johansen/Seth Jones trade. Or the Subban/Weber trade.

Horvat isn't some kind of special player. He's not untouchable.

everyone knows a player can be moved at the right price. Carolina was heaing offers for the 2nd pick, of course he will only move it at the right price, but we all know it's not going to happen. it's just that its extremely unlikely Bo Horvat is going to be moved even if we draft a sure fire 1st line centreman in 2019. I'm just surprised we are talking about it. even if we did draft Jack Hughes, Horvat won't even be moved right away anyways. I can put a proposal up in the trade forum, and everyone will call us crazy for bringing the idea the up of trading Horvat at the stage of the Canucks re tool, as we are now phasing in other players like HOrvat. His responsibility will start to go up, he will lead, and play a crucial part he is our captain next season, then we trade him? sure that will do well for a re phase. Not likely it will happen, and I didn't say he was untouchable.

Keep in mind the circumstance is different, Johansen was Tortz chew toy, for Columbus, and Nashville had insane depth on defense.

But sure lets talk about what we can get in a trade for Bo Horvat, lets start that discussion.

Unbelievable.

 

[lawrence]

Well if Dobson tracks like a #2 Dman,

that's a terrible offer for us.

 

[Bleach Clean]

that's a terrible offer for us.

Right now it is, so we have to see what Dobson tracks like first. If he’s on the road to becoming the top pairing defender people think he will be then absolutely that is more than fair for a 2C.

Question: You said that even if we draft Jack Hughes, Horvat won’t be moved right away anyways. What do you mean by this? Does it mean that you think he will be moved eventually if we draft Hughes?

 

[CanaFan]

a scenario like this is not very common and unthinkable at this point for a team like the Vancouver Canucks. Of course I will not object to trading lets say Brock Boesser if the price was right, but at this point in this phase of the Canucks direction right now, its unlikely scenerio that Horvat is put up as trade bait or a trade option or even Boeser. so of course I'm a little surprised the idea is brought up.


"Do you just assume it’s for a poor return or something?"

ok then, lets lalk what is a fair trade for Bo f in horvat at this point?

Sigh, why does every initially straightforward conversation end up like this?

First of all, you are aware that the initial comment about trading Horvat was predicated on us drafting a Centre high in 2019, right? So assuming we have a Hughes/Newhook/Turcotte at 1C and Pettersson at 2C, would you rather stow Horvat into a 3C role (and potentially pushing Gaudette down to 4c) or convert him to an asset at a less deep position?

Because that’s the premise for trading Horvat that you jumped into.

As for what I’d trade him for, it depends on what we need at the time but I’m going to assume defense remains our biggest need. In that case I’d happily do a Horvat- Shea Theodore swap with LVK. I think they are approx similar in value and would move an asset from a position of depth to a position of greater need.

Roster balancing. It’s what good teams do.

 

[CanaFan]

everyone knows a player can be moved at the right price. Carolina was heaing offers for the 2nd pick, of course he will only move it at the right price, but we all know it's not going to happen. it's just that its extremely unlikely Bo Horvat is going to be moved even if we draft a sure fire 1st line centreman in 2019. I'm just surprised we are talking about it. even if we did draft Jack Hughes, Horvat won't even be moved right away anyways. I can put a proposal up in the trade forum, and everyone will call us crazy for bringing the idea the up of trading Horvat at the stage of the Canucks re tool, as we are now phasing in other players like HOrvat. His responsibility will start to go up, he will lead, and play a crucial part he is our captain next season, then we trade him? sure that will do well for a re phase. Not likely it will happen, and I didn't say he was untouchable.

Keep in mind the circumstance is different, Johansen was Tortz chew toy, for Columbus, and Nashville had insane depth on defense.

But sure lets talk about what we can get in a trade for Bo Horvat, lets start that discussion.

Unbelievable.

Why is this so “unbelievable”? What exactly is your problem with people discussing hockey on a hockey forum? You always seem so personally offended that people are *gasp* talking about you favourite Vancouver Canuck heroes.

Don’t take everything so seriously. Just because we talk about it doesn’t mean it’s actually gonna happen. Your future captain will still likely end up being the captain here someday. It’s just people talking about stuff.

 

[lawrence]

Horvat won’t be moved right away anyways. What do you mean by this?

because whoever the 1st line centreman we draft unlikely he will be ready to lead the CAnucks as our 1st line centreman. That's your idea playing out if Horvat was going to be traded.

First of all, you are aware that the initial comment about trading Horvat was predicated on us drafting a Centre high in 2019, right? So assuming we have a Hughes/Newhook/Turcotte at 1C and Pettersson at 2C, would you rather stow Horvat into a 3C role

well when is the trade? like Put horvat on the trade block right away? or down the road if we are stacked at C? Unlikely anyone from the 2019 draft is good enough to play as one of our top centremans. Newhook is a winger apparently and commited to college in 2020. I understand your idea you trade your depth. I see what you mean, but for now it's unlikely we have 2 better centremans then Horvat after 2019.

I’d happily do a Horvat- Shea Theodore swap with LVK

shit here gets crazier and crazier. but appreciate the response.

 

[lawrence]

Why is this so “unbelievable”?

the reason why I think its unbelievable right now is 2 things.

1 Horvat is going to be the team's future captain, he's 23, and a vital part of putting together the teams new core, he Boeser Pettersson, will make up our new core, with hopes of juolevi and Hughes being part of our back end core.

2. IF PETTERSSON is one of our top 2 centres, don't think even if we draft the best centre available in 2019 will step in and be a one of the canucks top 2 centres. Unlikely this will happen unless he's a McDavid or Crosby, that's why I think it's something not thinkable or believable to see Horvats name on the trade block on July of 2019.

down the road :
if we have 2 much better centres then Horvat I can see a trade here, but that's more for down the road talk.