NHL Entry Draft 2019 Entry Draft Discussion (part 3)

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I fully understand, you don't seem to understand the difference between age and seasons.

You did not seem to understand the context, in which I was replying to the people who were upset that the Senators wasted picks, this past draft, on players that had been through a previous draft(s) and were not selected. They suggested Ottawa should have selected prospects who were only 18 years old.

I just pointed out that Batherson had been through a draft before, and for that matter so did Zack Smith who was not selected in 2007, when he too was draft eligible.

Taking players, who went undrafted in a previous year (or two) is not a wasted pick.

 

[Brannstorm]

Not sure what is crazier, the fact they only have 12 scouts (I think close to half may even be part time)? Or that Melnyk can't keep employees?

I see what you are saying, but I also see the opposite and the proof is in the pudding. These last years we have been drafting better than ever, since 2015. Hitting on guys throughout the draft.

Also most teams end up valuing players quite differently. You might say that it is good to have more scouts to see more value. But here, as with most things, there is a balance. Each scout must feel their opinion valued in order to encourage good work. How do you do that when you pick once a year and only some opinions will actually be used even though all may be valued.

The point I am making is sometimes less can be more, as long as we know what more it is we need.

 

[BondraTime]

Haha, no worries. The same web guys who only edit when they are told to I guess. DJ Smith is there now, yet Nick Ruzkowski is still listed as the COO.

As for the part time/full time argument, seems like a few of the scouts do hold positions or jobs elsewhere, doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't "full-time", but some of these guys are obviously not 100% dedicated to scouting for the Ottawa Senators.

Bobby Strumm: Hockey Staff – Portland Winterhawks
Todd Stirling: https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-stirling-40795738/

Also posted this in the POHO thread, but seems like Melnyk promised more scouts, just like he promised a POHO.

Yeah as I mentioned about Strumm, he is still working within the WHL on a part time basis. He is only consulting for them now after scouting for the past 5 seasons.

I don't have any knowledge on what Stirling is doing, but seeing the league it is (EHL) and that he's a pro scout, I'd imagine it would be on his own time.

I'm going to stay away from the hiring of scouts this year until any actual information comes out, but it will be coming,

 

[BondraTime]

For those wondering where the info of us turning down 33rd + 157th for 32nd from LA prior to the start of the draft.

That is so insanely absurd to turn down. Move down 1 spot for a free 6th to take a guy you are reaching on when you should know they are taking Kaliyev.

Either they had Pinto REALLLLLLLLLY high and way above the next guy available and were afraid of losing him or, I don't know.

I'm sure they aren't happy the Kings let this out.

The Kings head scout gave an elated press conference about how they had 2 guys they wanted after picking Bjornfot at 22, and both those guys were still there at 33.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

For those wondering where the info of us turning down 33rd + 157th for 32nd from LA prior to the start of the draft.

That is so insanely absurd to turn down. Move down 1 spot for a free 6th to take a guy you are reaching on when you should know they are taking Kaliyev.

Either they had Pinto REALLLLLLLLLY high and way above the next guy available and were afraid of losing him or, I don't know.

I'm sure they aren't happy the Kings let this out

I don't understand this one myself, he must have been scared LA was taking Pinto.

The only other thing I can think is that he was offered better deals that he turned down after round 1 or in the morning of Day 2 and he didn't want to look like a jack ass taking something worse.

 

[Tuna99]

You think the oldest forward on the team is going to be 24 years old. Unreal. Literally has never happened in the history of the NHL.

Well good thing you’re here to make sure it doesn’t happen. What would this team do without you

 

[BatherSeason]

he didn't want to look like a jack ass taking something worse.

He looks much worse now. Not even sure the spin doctors can spin this one, but I am sure Brucey will try.

 

[Upgrayedd]

I don't understand this one myself, he must have been scared LA was taking Pinto.

The only other thing I can think is that he was offered better deals that he turned down after round 1 or in the morning of Day 2 and he didn't want to look like a jack ass taking something worse.

Lol can you imagine!

 

[R2010]

For those wondering where the info of us turning down 33rd + 157th for 32nd from LA prior to the start of the draft.

That is so insanely absurd to turn down. Move down 1 spot for a free 6th to take a guy you are reaching on when you should know they are taking Kaliyev.

Either they had Pinto REALLLLLLLLLY high and way above the next guy available and were afraid of losing him or, I don't know.

I'm sure they aren't happy the Kings let this out

Every indication out there is that they had Pinto high and that they felt confident he wasn't making it to their next pick.

Mann - "...the kid that was there was a kid we were a little scared of losing... we knew if we moved back too far we definitely weren't going to get him..."

Maybe they were had some indication LA liked him? That video sure doesn't necessarily mean it was Kaliyev. In fact, I would have expected them to have cut out less than they did (considering what they did show) if it was Kaliyev.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

For those wondering where the info of us turning down 33rd + 157th for 32nd from LA prior to the start of the draft.

That is so insanely absurd to turn down. Move down 1 spot for a free 6th to take a guy you are reaching on when you should know they are taking Kaliyev.

Either they had Pinto REALLLLLLLLLY high and way above the next guy available and were afraid of losing him or, I don't know.

I'm sure they aren't happy the Kings let this out

Reset the clock. Goddammit.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

He looks much worse now. Not even sure the spin doctors can spin this one, but I am sure Brucey will try.

He likely thought that this wouldn't come out though. If he accepted, everyone would have obviously known, and everyone might have pointed and laughed.

 

[BondraTime]

Every indication out there is that they had Pinto high and that they felt confident he wasn't making it to their next pick.

Mann - "...the kid that was there was a kid we were a little scared of losing... we knew if we moved back too far we definitely weren't going to get him..."

Maybe they were had some indication LA liked him? That video sure doesn't necessarily mean it was Kaliyev. In fact, I would have expected them to have cut out less than they did (considering what they did show) if it was Kaliyev.

Since the draft they said that they got their guys in Kaliyev and Fagemo, not that GM/scout speak can be taken without a grain of salt.

Not making it to their next pick at 44/37 and not making it past 1 team is quite a bit of difference.

Maybe LA was high on Pinto, but they seemed pretty ready to get Kaliyev asap when the Sens pick was made. The way they said that they wanted to cut out any noise and just give up the 6th to get their guy leads me to believe that they wanted a guy they expected to be gone and and to me that doesn't seem like Pinto.

 

[HSF]

For those wondering where the info of us turning down 33rd + 157th for 32nd from LA prior to the start of the draft.

That is so insanely absurd to turn down. Move down 1 spot for a free 6th to take a guy you are reaching on when you should know they are taking Kaliyev.

Either they had Pinto REALLLLLLLLLY high and way above the next guy available and were afraid of losing him or, I don't know.

I'm sure they aren't happy the Kings let this out

not worth it if you thought LA could take your guy in Pinto

 

[HSF]

Since the draft they said that they got their guys in Kaliyev and Fagemo, not that GM/scout speak can be taken without a grain of salt.

Not making it to their next pick at 44/37 and not making it past 1 team is quite a bit of difference.

Maybe LA was high on Pinto, but they seemed pretty ready to get Kaliyev asap when the Sens pick was made. The way they said that they wanted to cut out any noise and just give up the 6th to get their guy leads me to believe that they wanted a guy they expected to be gone and and to me that doesn't seem like Pinto.

its all speculation.... its not INSANELY ABSURD to keep your pick cause of a 6th rounder especially if you even thought they might take Pinto

 

[BatherSeason]

its all speculation.... its not INSANELY ABSURD to keep your pick cause of a 6th rounder especially if you even thought they might take Pinto

In a rebuild you take the picks wherever you can. Heck, even if LA took Pinto, the Sens could have just grabbed Sogaard at 33 and saved the asset they gave up to reach for the goaltender and taken a forward at 37.

 

[BondraTime]

its all speculation.... its not INSANELY ABSURD to keep your pick cause of a 6th rounder especially if you even thought they might take Pinto

That's the thing, we always think someone's is going to take our guy, even when we are reaching 20-30+ picks for them.

We thought someone was going to take JBD.

We thought Soogard was going in the 1st.

We thought 1 team was going to trade up to steal Pinto.

At some point, you need to stop thinking other teams are going to reach for guys like you, when it seems completely insane they would. Did we really think another team was gong to reach into another hemisphere to take Lodin in the 4th when he likely is on nobodies draft list? Same with Burgess. Reaching is perfectly fine, I have no problems with that. We should know that our list is nowhere near common and we have guys higher Than pretty much anyone. A move back a single spot is very safe, especially when there are 4/5 extremely high profile guys left in the board and you are going to be taking a guy ranked towards the 3rd round. We traded up to 37 using an extra pick to take Soogard. Worst case we take him instead and save our other picks.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That's the thing, we always think someone's is going to take our guy, even when we are reaching 20-30+ picks for them.

We thought someone was going to take JBD.

We thought Soogard was going in the 1st.

We thought 1 team was going to trade up to steal Pinto.

At some point, you need to stop thinking other teams are going to reach for guys like you, when it seems completely insane they would. Did we really think another team was gong to reach into another hemisphere to take Lodin in the 4th when he likely is on nobodies draft list? Same with Burgess. Reaching is perfectly fine, I have no problems with that. We should know that our list is nowhere near common and we have guys higher Than pretty much anyone. A move back a single spot is very safe, especially when there are 4/5 extremely high profile guys left in the board and you are going to be taking a guy ranked towards the 3rd round. We traded up to 37 using an extra pick to take Soogard. Worst case we take him instead and save our other picks.

They did trade down last year, so you know they consider it an option, and I also think you need to consider the opposite perspective.

When you have guys on the board that you really want, you don’t have to try and play games to see if you can eek out another late round pick. You take the guy you want and move on.

You don’t see a ton of trading back at the draft because most teams would prefer taking their guy than risk losing him for a 6th round flier. Often when they do move back it’s because they don’t have a single guy they really want, and it makes sense to add another pellet to the shotgun blast.

You of all people should know better than to play the ‘reach’ card here. Just because fans who follow consensus scouting services feel that a player was a reach doesn’t not mean that the Sens scouting team thought it was a reach. If they felt that all that was left were reaches, they would have explored trading back, as they did last year, given that they didn’t, clearly they preferred making their picks.

It’s always easy to have strong opinions when you don’t have all of the details, and you have nothing on the line. Mann went through the picks and explained each one, if you disagree with them fair enough, but when your scouting team wants you to take a guy, or to trade up to get a guy, or not trade back to potentially lose a guy, you either listen to them, or you might as well fire the lot of them.

 

[Ice-Tray]

In a rebuild you take the picks wherever you can. Heck, even if LA took Pinto, the Sens could have just grabbed Sogaard at 33 and saved the asset they gave up to reach for the goaltender and taken a forward at 37.

Lol, with nothing on the line, and in complete retrospect, you solved the draft.

Nicely done...

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

The Habs are clear cut winners at the 2012 draft.

Submitted without comment..... except for that the other team being talked up - Buffalo - drafted twice in the top 15 and got maybe a 3rd liner + bottom pair D out of that whole draft..... + that rankings and media projections really don't tell you much

 

[BatherSeason]

Lol, with nothing on the line, and in complete retrospect, you solved the draft.

Nicely done...

Ahhh, nothing like good old fashioned sarcasm. I guess you are the expert. Shocked the Sens or Canucks haven't hired you yet.

 

[Acidrain66]

Ahhh, nothing like good old fashioned sarcasm. I guess you are the expert. Shocked the Sens or Canucks haven't hired you yet.

Come on now, it's his job on these boards to keep the good P.R

 

[Hale The Villain]

Just more evidence that Dorion has no asset management skills whatsoever.

Passes up a 6th to move down 1 spot but jumps at the opportunity to waste a 3rd to move up 7 spots

 

[Korpse]

Just more evidence that Dorion has no asset management skills whatsoever.

Passes up a 6th to move down 1 spot but jumps at the opportunity to waste a 3rd to move up 7 spots

meh, i think people are making a bigger deal than it's worth. A 6th round pick isn't much of an incentive. They had all night to consider their options and likely received better offers but probably had a pretty good idea other teams were targeting Pinto in the early 2nd.

 

[Micklebot]

Just more evidence that Dorion has no asset management skills whatsoever.

Passes up a 6th to move down 1 spot but jumps at the opportunity to waste a 3rd to move up 7 spots

If we had drafted Kaliyev at 32 and moved up to 37 to grab Lavoie you probably would have no issue with turning down that 6th and trading a 3rd. Its not so much the asset management as it is the prospect evaluation.

Time will tell. I am disapointed but i dont think the guys we got are bad, i just prefered other guys who were unexpectedly available

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

If we had drafted Kaliyev at 32 and moved up to 37 to grab Lavoie you probably would have no issue with turning down that 6th and trading a 3rd. Its not so much the asset management as it is the prospect evaluation.

Time will tell. I am disapointed but i dont think the guys we got are bad, i just prefered other guys who were unexpectedly available

Its evaluation and asset managment.

The team no longer values high end skill as we've seen how they draft the past few years and how all our skilled players get dealt or not re-signed.

Dorion also tosses in picks or downgrades in trades at every opportunity. Hoffman trade, Nilsson trade, Duchene trade, Sogaard trade, etc and on and on.

Its a terrible feeling as a fan. The draft table seemed like a safe space for us for so long. Now it's not looking like the case anymore after these past few years. I don't hate every pick but the majority are questionable at best.