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Euro: 2019 Champions League Final

Who will win?

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    64
  • Poll closed .

Havre

Registered User
Jul 24, 2011
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Liverpool got a deeper squad? In midfield yes - the rest I would question if true.

There are always some players that have sensational seasons. I remember when I thought Dier was a top 3-5 DM in the world one year. Rose was sensational for a time some years ago. Alli had his crazy end to the season etc. This season I can't really say any Spurs player on an individual basis have had a season like that. Liverpool have had at least Mane, van Dijk and Robertson having exceptionally good seasons. When very good, and in the case of at least van Dijk, have exceptional seasons that helps. Doesn't have to mean much for one game though. van Dijk as an example didn't play well against Barcelona away - it can happen again.

And I believe you are correct in saying Spurs have struggled more with injuries. Might be irrelevant for this last game - might even mean Spurs are fresher for this one game - but during a full season it is a problem.

I agree with Corto. I would give it 55-60 til Liverpool. To say it is a "crushing" defeat if it happened is rather strange.
 

Havre

Registered User
Jul 24, 2011
8,459
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Winks got to start. Winks - Sissoko is the only midfield that could work against Liverpool. More important to me than Kane starting.
 
Prntscrn

Prntscrn

Registered User
Sep 29, 2011
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Corto said:
Eriken is the best midfielder of the lot IMO, and quite clearly so.
Also, Sissoko has been absolutely lights out this season and didn't take half of it to heat up like Fabinho.
I'd even see Wijnaldum has been better overall than Fabinho.

Kane is also very good at dropping deep and being involved in the play - his task is to score goals, but he does so much more.
He's not an Icardi-like poacher. Sometimes I think that as much as the English media tended to overrate him, everyone else seems to underrate him.

I mean, Liverpool are the favorites, and it's theirs to lose, especially in light of all the Spurs injury and fitness troubles.
And I'll be rooting for them.
But it's not like it's a 90-10 game, it's 55-45 and the Spurs best 11 is formidable and capable of beating and controlling the game against any team in the world, on their day.
Click to expand...

Sissoko played like crap last season and the season before that while Fabinho only needed a few months to get along with the system. I started to question if Fabinho ever would make it in Liverpool just shortly before he turned it around, now he's the first player I put in that midfield.

I think Liverpool are favorites but not by that much. Even though Liverpool has had a tendency to come out on top in the games against Spurs lately they have usually been very tight.

I'd say 60-40 in Liverpools favor
 
Paulie Gualtieri

Paulie Gualtieri

R.I.P. Tony Sirico
May 18, 2016
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Prntscrn said:
Sissoko played like crap last season and the season before that while Fabinho only needed a few months to get along with the system. I started to question if Fabinho ever would make it in Liverpool just shortly before he turned it around, now he's the first player I put in that midfield.
Click to expand...

Forget about Sissoko's past seasons. Poch played him in a less effective role. Completely different player this season. Has been a gamechanger that has turned multiple games on its head.
 
YNWA14

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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I would say something like this looks good (exceptional really, what a team this would be):

Alisson
Trent - Alderweireld - van Dijk - Robertson
Fabinho
Eriksen - Wijnaldum
Salah - Firmino - Mane​

Can't bring myself to put Sissoko over Fabinho despite his resurgence; even though I think Wijnaldum is a fine 6 his tactical intelligence and late runs into the box are so dangerous from that more advanced position especially against the bigger teams that play more openly.

As the final comes I'm more and more nervous. I wouldn't give Liverpool that big of an advantage even though I think this season they've shown to be a significantly better team. In their last 6 meetings Liverpool have won 4, lost 1 and drawn 1...including wins in both of their games this season. One off games where everything is on the line throw form and season out the window. We've seen much bigger upsets than what it would be if Liverpool lost to Spurs here. I think Liverpool have the advantage as they are better, and have a better coach, but Spurs have a good shot.
 
hatterson

hatterson

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Apr 12, 2010
35,393
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North Tonawanda, NY
YNWA14 said:
Out of curiosity what makes Kane better than Firmino?
Click to expand...

They almost play different positions, so it's hard to compare them directly, but I think Kane has better attributes for a traditional #9 as it's used in most systems, being a target man, leading the attack, and scoring goals. Firmino is much better in a sort of quasi false 9 role where his job is more about being involved in linkup play, free up wide attackers, and contribute defensively although not near as many teams expect that from their theoretical #9

That's not to say Kane isn't good in the build up or link up play, or that Firmino can't work as a target man and score more goals, but Kane is stronger at the more traditional #9 role that more teams play.

I don't think there's much doubt though that Firmino is a better fit in Liverpools system and Liverpool would be stupid to trade them.
 
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YNWA14

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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hatterson said:
They almost play different positions, so it's hard to compare them directly, but I think Kane has better attributes for a traditional #9 as it's used in most systems, being a target man, leading the attack, and scoring goals. Firmino is much better in a sort of quasi false 9 role where his job is more about being involved in linkup play, free up wide attackers, and contribute defensively although not near as many teams expect that from their theoretical #9

That's not to say Kane isn't good in the build up or link up play, or that Firmino can't work as a target man and score more goals, but Kane is stronger at the more traditional #9 role that more teams play.

I don't think there's much doubt though that Firmino is a better fit in Liverpools system and Liverpool would be stupid to trade them.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if it's true though. If you remove penalties the last two seasons their production actually isn't all that different (goal wise, 24 vs. 35 last season and 15 vs. 18 this season while Firmino creates many more chances and has more assists over those two seasons) and that's with keeping in mind that Firmino isn't even the secondary focal point in terms of goal scoring. Off the ball as much as Kane does contribute at times he isn't close to Firmino, IMO, in that regard.

I've always been a fan of Kane, actually, and defended him in the past when people didn't rate him, but while he's a great 9 I just don't think he's as good of a player overall. I think Firmino could jump into Tottenham and fill Kane's shoes pretty easily, if not better, but he can also play in midfield and on the wings very effectively (I mean, this season he's effectively been a midfielder a lot of the time and is integral to our build up play). It's hard to really say because Firmino has never been the #1 goal scoring option on a team or played as a 'traditional 9' (partially, imo, because he's so important to his team in other ways he can't really be 'isolated' up front).

Both great players, obviously, but I just think Firmino brings more to the table as a player, regardless of the system, though I'm biased.
 
spintheblackcircle

spintheblackcircle

incoming!!!
Mar 1, 2002
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YNWA14 said:
I'm not sure if it's true though. If you remove penalties the last two seasons their production actually isn't all that different (goal wise, 24 vs. 35 last season and 15 vs. 18 this season while Firmino creates many more chances and has more assists over those two seasons) and that's with keeping in mind that Firmino isn't even the secondary focal point in terms of goal scoring. Off the ball as much as Kane does contribute at times he isn't close to Firmino, IMO, in that regard..
Click to expand...

Kane had more goals and more assists this year in fewer matches and this was his worst year in the last 4. And off the ball, Kane is great. Not good, great.
 
YNWA14

YNWA14

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Dec 29, 2010
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spintheblackcircle said:
Kane had more goals and more assists this year in fewer matches and this was his worst year in the last 4. And off the ball, Kane is great. Not good, great.
Click to expand...
Firmino (3,310 minutes) had 15 goals and 7 assists between CL and PL and Kane (3,115 minutes) had 18 goals and 5 assists between PL and CL (again, removing penalties). Off the ball we have different definitions I guess; I don't consider Kane to be close to the level of Firmino, Benzema or Cavani off the ball.
 
Evilo

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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You remove penalties when it suits you apparently.

And 35 goals and 24 goals isn't all that different?
Yeah a 13 goal scorer is not all that different from Firmino then.

The overrating of Firmino reaches new heights every month.
 
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hatterson

hatterson

Registered User
Apr 12, 2010
35,393
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North Tonawanda, NY
YNWA14 said:
I'm not sure if it's true though. If you remove penalties the last two seasons their production actually isn't all that different (goal wise, 24 vs. 35 last season and 15 vs. 18 this season while Firmino creates many more chances and has more assists over those two seasons) and that's with keeping in mind that Firmino isn't even the secondary focal point in terms of goal scoring. Off the ball as much as Kane does contribute at times he isn't close to Firmino, IMO, in that regard.

I've always been a fan of Kane, actually, and defended him in the past when people didn't rate him, but while he's a great 9 I just don't think he's as good of a player overall. I think Firmino could jump into Tottenham and fill Kane's shoes pretty easily, if not better, but he can also play in midfield and on the wings very effectively (I mean, this season he's effectively been a midfielder a lot of the time and is integral to our build up play). It's hard to really say because Firmino has never been the #1 goal scoring option on a team or played as a 'traditional 9' (partially, imo, because he's so important to his team in other ways he can't really be 'isolated' up front).

Both great players, obviously, but I just think Firmino brings more to the table as a player, regardless of the system, though I'm biased.
Click to expand...

Seems more like an agree to disagree thing, although I will point out that the goal difference is pretty high considering the number of games played and last year was the only year in the last 3 that Firmino actually out assisted Kane by any margin.

Combining league and champions league:

16-17
Kane - 33 games, 25 goals, 8 assists
Firmino - 35 games, 11 goals, 7 assists

17-18
Kane - 43 games, 35 goals, 3 assists
Firmino - 53 games, 25 goals, 15 assists

18-19
Kane - 36 games, 19 goals, 5 assists
Firmino - 45 games, 16 goals, 7 assists

If you combine the last 2 seasons, Kane has played in 19 fewer PL+CL games and only has 1 fewer goal involvement (+13 on goals, -14 on assists).
 
YNWA14

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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hatterson said:
Seems more like an agree to disagree thing, although I will point out that the goal difference is pretty high considering the number of games played and last year was the only year in the last 3 that Firmino actually out assisted Kane by any margin.

Combining league and champions league:

16-17
Kane - 33 games, 25 goals, 8 assists
Firmino - 35 games, 11 goals, 7 assists

17-18
Kane - 43 games, 35 goals, 3 assists
Firmino - 53 games, 25 goals, 15 assists

18-19
Kane - 36 games, 19 goals, 5 assists
Firmino - 45 games, 16 goals, 7 assists

If you combine the last 2 seasons, Kane has played in 19 fewer PL+CL games and only has 1 fewer goal involvement (+13 on goals, -14 on assists).
Click to expand...
It might be the first year that he out assisted him by a decent margin, but that's more due to a lack of finishing than because of a difference in play; Firmino created more chances and was in more goal scoring positions in 16/17 than in 17/18. Games played can be misleading though which is why I posted how many minutes the two played over the CL/EL/PL (which is where I generally grab my stats from) over the last two seasons. This is also solely looking at production and not the other stuff which is what tips the scales for me between the two. If they're creating roughly the same number of goals over roughly the same amount of time I'd take the guy that is more valuable away from the ball (build up, transition, defending, teeth etc.)

At the end of the day everyone values certain aspects of the game differently. I personally look a lot more at what players bring in an overall sense, and especially their contributions during build up and transitional phases. A lot of people value goals above all else, and still others who look at someone who can organize and protect a team from being scored on as the most valuable. It's all cool.
 
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