Rumor: 2019-2020 Trade Rumours and Free Agent Discussion Version 10 | Hockey in august , meh not so bad

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Foppa2118

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Oct 3, 2003
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We're not going to trade for a real first pairing LHD. It's not happening. It's really, really really hard to find and would be really, really expensive.

More importantly with Byram coming up and Girard being a top 4 LHD already, it's not a priority right now (as opposed to goaltending, RHD and 3C).

The point was Makar can play with anyone and if no one is available then he can play with Girard.

Sakic isn't going to pay through the nose to put a roadblock in front of Byram.

I don't think we know what kind of deals are out there right now, or what kind of UFA's they'll target, but the Avs have some assets they can move, and I'd be very surprised if they weren't trying to bring in a better partner for Makar than Graves.

We saw how the strategy of Makar playing with anyone worked out in the playoffs after EJ went down. It resulted in guys like Graves and Cole struggling more than usual in the larger role. It doesn't have to be a legit top pairing guy they bring in, they can be a 3/4 type, they just have to be consistent enough in that role. Graves was not.

So far, Bednar has not wanted to pair Girard and Makar full time, so if that continues to be the case, that's not something they're going to feel comfortable using as a fall back option.

What they wish they had was Byram and Timmins about to go into their 2nd year in the NHL so they could count on their reliability, instead of coming into camp as question marks to even make the NHL.

Add on top of all that the injury to EJ that may keep him out a while. That's gonna put a lot of pressure on Sakic to do something to make sure they don't put themselves behind the eight ball with a poor start. They're gonna wanna start quick again, they don't want to go back to being a bubble team having to chase the playoffs till the end.
 

Miri

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Aug 13, 2013
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So people want JTC and Zadorov gone? I guess it turns out that O´Reilly trade was not such a win then.
 

ThatAvsGamer

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Feb 21, 2013
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So people want JTC and Zadorov gone? I guess it turns out that O´Reilly trade was not such a win then.
As someone who always wanted to pay O'Reilly, and was vocal against people who didn't want to keep him, I don't think many people consider it a win anymore?
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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So people want JTC and Zadorov gone? I guess it turns out that O´Reilly trade was not such a win then.


I mean... I'd say we made out better than Buffalo did, both in terms of the actual trade return, and relative to what Buffalo got for ROR as well. If the Avs were a competent drafting team the value probably would have ended up alright, but considering we got absolutely nothing out of that 2nd round pick it makes the deal look worse as well. It's pretty obvious ROR is/was a polarizing character that you won't get full value out of if you're the one trading him. Realistically we just shouldn't have traded him to begin with.



Had the Avs not traded ROR in 2015 and actually gave him the contract he has now, we probably win a cup to be honest. Mack/ROR down the middle is the best 1-2 punch in the league currently. Barrie goes somewhere else in trade to bolster the team even further elsewhere.
 

Cousin Eddie

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Nov 3, 2006
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Are NHL trades “pending physicals”?

Zadorov looks to have broken or sprained his arm as per Instagram. Or it’s a procedure done from the injury during playoffs. Who knows.
 
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ThatAvsGamer

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Are NHL trades “pending physicals”?

Zadorov looks to have broken or sprained his arm as per Instagram. Ironically one day after videos were posted of him ripping around on a dirt bike without a helmet. If this impacts a potential trade Joe Sakic is going to be infuriated with him. The draft/free agency is less than a month away.
you mean the guy who cut his fingers on a snowblower?
 

henchman21

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Are NHL trades “pending physicals”?

Zadorov looks to have broken or sprained his arm as per Instagram. Ironically one day after videos were posted of him ripping around on a dirt bike without a helmet. If this impacts a potential trade Joe Sakic is going to be infuriated with him. The draft/free agency is less than a month away.

Yeah, the injury history has to be disclosed and any team can give a player a physical after to make sure there wasn't any bad faith negotiating. So most teams end up disclosing any injuries prior, there have been a few rare instances where trades have been canceled because of that.

He could have also had a clean up surgery too. IIRC that was his elbow he screwed up prior.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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The thing is... If you look at the ROR trade and the Duchene trade side by side at time of trade, they are very similar deals.



The ROR trade got us:

- Nikita Zadorov
- JT Compher
- Mikhail Grigorenko
- 2015 2nd round pick(#31)


While Duchene returned us:

- Sam Girard
- Shane Bowers
- Vladislav Kamenev
- 2018 1st rounder
- 2018 2nd rounder
- 2019 3rd rounder



- Girard and JTC are equals, both guys at the time of trade were 2nd rounders showing good post draft progress.

- The 2015 2nd and 2018 1st are close, because the 2018 1st from Ottawa was projected to be a late 1st round pick basically in that 25+ range. Ottawa was not projected by anybody to be a bottom feeder team at that point.

- We'll say Grigorenko and Kamenev are roughly equal. Grigs was a former 12th overall pick who was struggling at that point(Not unlike Jost now), while Kam was a former 2nd rounder who had done well in the AHL but hadn't done enough to earn an NHL spot yet. I'd actually argue Grigs to be the more valuable asset here honestly.



After that, you're left with Zadorov, and Bowers + 2nd + 3rd. Z was the 16th pick a year ago at the time of trade with big upside but questions around his consistency and if he would reach that upside. I specifically remember Buffalo fans being adamant that Big Z and Risto were absolutely not being traded in a ROR deal as they were the foundation of that teams D core for years to come. On the flip side, Bowers was the former 26th(?) overall pick in the previous years draft who basically hadn't really started his D+1 year at college yet. He was a guy who was thought to have fairly limited upside for a 1st round pick, but also a pretty high floor to at least be a solid 4C in the NHL. Beyond that, the 2018 2nd and 2019 3rds we were getting were expected to be late draft picks as well as both Nashville and Ottawa were considered cup contending teams at time of trade.




When you compare the two deals. The expected values at the time of trade were very similar. The Avs got extremely lucky in the Duchene trade, that Ottawa completely fell apart almost immediately after that deal. Because if they didn't fall apart, instead of getting Byram ultimately at 4th overall in 2019, likely ended up with a 20s overall pick in 2018 where we likely take a Bernard-Docker or Rasmus Dandin sort of pick instead.

On top of that, had big Z worked out like many thought he would, and was a legit Top 4, Top pairing quality player for us right now(And the perfect Makar partner), all of a sudden that ROR deal would have looked like absolute robbery while the Duchene trade looks pretty meh instead.



Long story short. It's easy to critique the ROR deal and praise the Dutchy trade with the benefits of hindsight. But the reality is any time you're dealing a star player for a mystery box of assets, it really is exactly that, a complete mystery box. Sometimes things can work out exceptionally, other times they don't work out at all. Far more often than not, the mystery box doesn't end up living up to the hype. That's why to me, you're better off keeping the star player and working with them to solve whatever problems are ongoing, rather than trading them away.
 

Richard88

John 3:16
Jun 29, 2019
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Look who's leading the league in possesion metrics during the playoffs... Maybe we already have our solution to 3C internally... :sarcasm:

upload_2020-9-10_15-8-29.png
 

Richard88

John 3:16
Jun 29, 2019
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Are you advocating to move 3rd line grinder Landeskog to 3C?:sarcasm:
Burakovsky --- Mackinnon --- Rantanen
Landeskog ------ Kadri -------- Donskoi
Nichuskin ------- Dries -------- Compher
Calvert --------- Bellemare ---- Kaut

:sarcasm:


























:baghead:
 

Northern Avs Fan

Registered User
May 27, 2019
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The thing is... If you look at the ROR trade and the Duchene trade side by side at time of trade, they are very similar deals.



The ROR trade got us:

- Nikita Zadorov
- JT Compher
- Mikhail Grigorenko
- 2015 2nd round pick(#31)


While Duchene returned us:

- Sam Girard
- Shane Bowers
- Vladislav Kamenev
- 2018 1st rounder
- 2018 2nd rounder
- 2019 3rd rounder



- Girard and JTC are equals, both guys at the time of trade were 2nd rounders showing good post draft progress.

- The 2015 2nd and 2018 1st are close, because the 2018 1st from Ottawa was projected to be a late 1st round pick basically in that 25+ range. Ottawa was not projected by anybody to be a bottom feeder team at that point.

- We'll say Grigorenko and Kamenev are roughly equal. Grigs was a former 12th overall pick who was struggling at that point(Not unlike Jost now), while Kam was a former 2nd rounder who had done well in the AHL but hadn't done enough to earn an NHL spot yet. I'd actually argue Grigs to be the more valuable asset here honestly.



After that, you're left with Zadorov, and Bowers + 2nd + 3rd. Z was the 16th pick a year ago at the time of trade with big upside but questions around his consistency and if he would reach that upside. I specifically remember Buffalo fans being adamant that Big Z and Risto were absolutely not being traded in a ROR deal as they were the foundation of that teams D core for years to come. On the flip side, Bowers was the former 26th(?) overall pick in the previous years draft who basically hadn't really started his D+1 year at college yet. He was a guy who was thought to have fairly limited upside for a 1st round pick, but also a pretty high floor to at least be a solid 4C in the NHL. Beyond that, the 2018 2nd and 2019 3rds we were getting were expected to be late draft picks as well as both Nashville and Ottawa were considered cup contending teams at time of trade.




When you compare the two deals. The expected values at the time of trade were very similar. The Avs got extremely lucky in the Duchene trade, that Ottawa completely fell apart almost immediately after that deal. Because if they didn't fall apart, instead of getting Byram ultimately at 4th overall in 2019, likely ended up with a 20s overall pick in 2018 where we likely take a Bernard-Docker or Rasmus Dandin sort of pick instead.

On top of that, had big Z worked out like many thought he would, and was a legit Top 4, Top pairing quality player for us right now(And the perfect Makar partner), all of a sudden that ROR deal would have looked like absolute robbery while the Duchene trade looks pretty meh instead.



Long story short. It's easy to critique the ROR deal and praise the Dutchy trade with the benefits of hindsight. But the reality is any time you're dealing a star player for a mystery box of assets, it really is exactly that, a complete mystery box. Sometimes things can work out exceptionally, other times they don't work out at all. Far more often than not, the mystery box doesn't end up living up to the hype. That's why to me, you're better off keeping the star player and working with them to solve whatever problems are ongoing, rather than trading them away.

It all comes down to results in the end. The ROR trade was not good, simply because of the way Zadorov has developed. The Avs did still get two roster players out of it, but not enough to justify the deal.

Initially, I had more excitement about the return for ROR than I did for Duchene. But, Sakic identified a stud defenceman in Samuel Girard. He definitely deserves credit for that. Ending up with the 4th overall pick was certainly a bit lucky.
 

Richard88

John 3:16
Jun 29, 2019
19,176
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Are you advocating to move 3rd line grinder Landeskog to 3C?:sarcasm:
Seriously though, if we got a really good 3C like Danault or Cirelli somehow I wouldn't be opposed to balancing our lines a bit by having Landeskog on the "3rd" line.

xxxxxx ------- Mackinnon ---- Rantanen
Burakovsky ---- Kadri --------- xxxxxx
Landeskog --- Danault -------- xxxxxx
Calvert ------- Bellemare ------ xxxxxx

Fill in the gaps with Nichuskin, Donskoi, Compher, Namestnikov, Kaut, O'Connor, UFA signing etc.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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It all comes down to results in the end. The ROR trade was not good, simply because of the way Zadorov has developed. The Avs did still get two roster players out of it, but not enough to justify the deal.

Initially, I had more excitement about the return for ROR than I did for Duchene. But, Sakic identified a stud defenceman in Samuel Girard. He definitely deserves credit for that. Ending up with the 4th overall pick was certainly a bit lucky.


Pretty much. The ROR trade looked really good at the time, it just didn't materialize in impact players like Colorado thought it would.


On the flip side, while the Duchene trade also looked pretty solid at the time, not a single person foreseen what transpired after the fact with Ottawa.


But who knows... If Byram busts all of a sudden that deal looks just ok really. G being essentially all we would get.
 

Northern Avs Fan

Registered User
May 27, 2019
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Pretty much. The ROR trade looked really good at the time, it just didn't materialize in impact players like Colorado thought it would.


On the flip side, while the Duchene trade also looked pretty solid at the time, not a single person foreseen what transpired after the fact with Ottawa.


But who knows... If Byram busts all of a sudden that deal looks just ok really. G being essentially all we would get.

Even if Byram were to bust the trade is still a W to me. Girard is a lot better than Duchene and is only 22. Not to mention, Annunen and Bowers could still become something.
 

Richard88

John 3:16
Jun 29, 2019
19,176
20,805
Pretty much. The ROR trade looked really good at the time, it just didn't materialize in impact players like Colorado thought it would.


On the flip side, while the Duchene trade also looked pretty solid at the time, not a single person foreseen what transpired after the fact with Ottawa.


But who knows... If Byram busts all of a sudden that deal looks just ok really. G being essentially all we would get.
Girard developing into a No.2/3 is a great return and I don't think him on his own is far off Duchene's value now; in fact he's probably ahead value-wise.

The rest is house money, but of course we need some of the prospects to hit to really call the trade a big win - especially Byram. If they all bust then it'll look considerably worse.
  • Girard
  • 2nd (traded: Annunen and Zhuravlyov)
  • Kamenev
  • Hamburgler
  • 1st rounder/4th overall (Byram)
  • Bowers
  • 3rd (Stienburg)
 

John Mandalorian

2022 Avs: The First Dance
Nov 29, 2018
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What other deals for OReilly were on the table? Without knowing the opportunity cost, it’s hard to label it as a bad trade.

And to a certain degree, it’s how you look at it. We’ve had 2 roster players for a longer period of time than OReilly was with Buffalo. Did the trade really benefit Buffalo greatly?

We can tell ourselves that we should have paid ROR. However, that wasn’t going to happen and were also often praising Sakic’s restraint with avoiding bad contracts. That same discipline is what resulted in him trading Barrie and OReilly.
 
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Ararana

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Sep 22, 2013
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Would you trade Byrum to Anaheim if it gets the Avs Lindholm and Gibson?

I think I would.

The Avs badly need Byram but if they get Lindholm in return to fill that spot it makes a ton of sense. In my eyes goaltending is the biggest hurtle from winning a cup, so I would take off my Byram-bias glasses and trade a Byram package for Lindholm and Gibson pretty easily (though I'd much rather send them Newhook if it was all the same to them). But Gibson is a pipe dream, Anaheim probably should trade him to help their rebuild but they wont.

Byram/Newhook + Grubauer/Frankie + 2020 1st for Gibson and Lindholm. If the Avs managed to talk them into Newhook they'd be so deep on defense.

Lindholm - Makar
Byram - Girard
Graves - Timmins

How you're going to pay all those fools when the ELCs are over, idk. But that's a problem for after MacKinnon's current contract.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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Maybe, but it makes the cap situation going into 2021 a whole lot dicier.

It does but it doesn't.


It would fill 2 of our only real holes going forward. And both would be filled at very good cap hits.

6.5M for Gibson is a steal. Even if the Avs opted to keep Gruby, he's likely looking at ~6M on his next deal anyway. So we'd actually be getting a better goalie for similar money essentially.


Lindholm would be extra money that we would have to find room for, but again he's on a good contract and probably underpaid and with him you know you're getting a legit Top 4 D who can shut shit down when needed. We wouldn't know for sure if we are getting that ability ever from Byram.


So, it probably makes things a little tight for that 2021/22 year.... But I thinnk it would actually help the cap situation in years beyond that season.
 
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