Rumor: 2019-2020 Trade Rumours and Free Agent Discussion Part 3

[AllAboutAvs]

The Avs have Cole who is only under contract for one more season that can do the same thing as Z. There known sunset in that contract that doesn't cause any future problems. To lock up Z you might need 4.5m over 4 or 5 years... where 3 or 4 of them are pretty much guaranteed bottom pairing. That is a poor use of cap space that will start to become an issue in that same timeframe. Especially when you consider the other terrible contract on the backend that is a ticking timebomb.

Much prefer Z over Cole. Trade Cole and then trade Z when you need the cap space.

 

[henchman21]

Much prefer Z over Cole. Trade Cole and then trade Z when you need the cap space.

When Z is getting over paid to be a bottom pairing player, his value is going to be pretty poor and he may not be all that easy to trade. I prefer Z over Cole in a vacuum, I prefer Cole at 4.25m for the rest of this season and next over Z for 4.5m for 5 seasons after this. You have to make a long-term commitment to Z and you have to be willing to live with that contract if it comes to it. Just take a look over at Gudbranson... the Pens had to dump him to Anaheim for basically nothing because he basically had 2 seasons left at $4m. The Pens got him for a player that was also on a bad contract and playing really poorly for them. Pearson was an undesirable asset. That is with Gudbranson being on a 3 year $4m per deal. Z on a 5 year (with 3 or 4 left) and 4.5m per is going to be a much harder trade.

 

[Pokecheque]

When Z is getting over paid to be a bottom pairing player, his value is going to be pretty poor and he may not be all that easy to trade. I prefer Z over Cole in a vacuum, I prefer Cole at 4.25m for the rest of this season and next over Z for 4.5m for 5 seasons after this. You have to make a long-term commitment to Z and you have to be willing to live with that contract if it comes to it. Just take a look over at Gudbranson... the Pens had to dump him to Anaheim for basically nothing because he basically had 2 seasons left at $4m. The Pens got him for a player that was also on a bad contract and playing really poorly for them. Pearson was an undesirable asset. That is with Gudbranson being on a 3 year $4m per deal. Z on a 5 year (with 3 or 4 left) and 4.5m per is going to be a much harder trade.

Exactly. It's not that easy to dump contracts for cap space. You either have to take back a bad contract in return or deal away a good asset in addition to the bad contract in order for the other team to take it on. The Avs have been smart about not getting into that kind of situation. I realize going forward they will eventually have to take a risk and probably overpay someone, but I don't think Z is a good bet for a long-term deal at all. Sorry...but he isn't.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

It will be interesting to see what the Avs do with Timmins and Byram. If the Avs are legitimate contenders for the cup do they actually float two rookies as part of their top 6D? I find it unlikely that they would risk the associated growing pains. Players who adjust as quickly as Makar has are extremely rare. Both may end up being high end but it will likely take some time. I could see one traded or else plan for one in '20 and the other in '21.

They are essentially playing two rookie D-men this year, in Graves and Makar. They also had Timmins up earlier in the year, so the organization seems ok, going with young guys. I would be very surprised if either Byram, or Timmins is traded. Both offer pretty big upside. Sakic has maintained he wants to build a winner long term and part of that means staying with the young guys as they develop.

Also, don’t be surprised if Timmins is back with the Avs before the season is out.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

When Z is getting over paid to be a bottom pairing player, his value is going to be pretty poor and he may not be all that easy to trade. I prefer Z over Cole in a vacuum, I prefer Cole at 4.25m for the rest of this season and next over Z for 4.5m for 5 seasons after this. You have to make a long-term commitment to Z and you have to be willing to live with that contract if it comes to it. Just take a look over at Gudbranson... the Pens had to dump him to Anaheim for basically nothing because he basically had 2 seasons left at $4m. The Pens got him for a player that was also on a bad contract and playing really poorly for them. Pearson was an undesirable asset. That is with Gudbranson being on a 3 year $4m per deal. Z on a 5 year (with 3 or 4 left) and 4.5m per is going to be a much harder trade.

But that's the thing...Z wouldn't be paid as a bottom pairing dman. He would be paid and used as a top-4 dman until Byram is ready and offered as such. Z at 4.5M wouldn't be that hard to sell IMO with the cap going up. A little overpaid but not that much.

 

[Pokecheque]

But that's the thing...Z wouldn't be paid as a bottom pairing dman. He would be paid and used as a top-4 dman until Byram is ready and offered as such. Z at 4.5M wouldn't be that hard to sell IMO with the cap going up. A little overpaid but not that much.

But that's just it. Z really isn't a legit top-four guy. Way too many holes in his game, way too inconsistent, and simply not good enough defensively or offensively to take hold in that role.

 

[S3rkie]

As much as I love Z as a personality. I've come to terms with him not being here after this year, hopefully the D grows enough that Cole isn't either. I will miss players quitting forechecks when they see him coming though. Watching Johnny Hockey bail out on that puck right before a GA was hilarious.

 

[Pokecheque]

As much as I love Z as a personality. I've come to terms with him not being here after this year, hopefully the D grows enough that Cole isn't either. I will miss players quitting forechecks when they see him coming though. Watching Johnny Hockey bail out on that puck right before a GA was hilarious.

I saw that and laughed out loud.

 

[henchman21]

But that's the thing...Z wouldn't be paid as a bottom pairing dman. He would be paid and used as a top-4 dman until Byram is ready and offered as such. Z at 4.5M wouldn't be that hard to sell IMO with the cap going up. A little overpaid but not that much.

Z would be a bottom paring quality defensemen that is paid like a middle pairing defensemen. That is a hard sell to any team. At best Z is a 4/5, but his play shows more on the 5 side... a lot more. We've seen plenty of that level of defensemen with similar contracts to what Z would have, and they can be moved, but it is much harder than is being stated and usually involves eating some sort of shit sandwich. Zaitsev (and Ceci in the same deal), Gudbranson, DeHann, etc.

 

[The Abusement Park]

But that's the thing...Z wouldn't be paid as a bottom pairing dman. He would be paid and used as a top-4 dman until Byram is ready and offered as such. Z at 4.5M wouldn't be that hard to sell IMO with the cap going up. A little overpaid but not that much.

So we’re paying Z top 4 money and playing him as a top 4 D when he’s shown he isn’t worth that money or responsibility?

 

[S3rkie]

I saw that and laughed out loud.

He was just like full stride, sees Z and nope, nope, nope, going to the bench ::Whistling::

 

[Foppa2118]

This top 4 term is old and outdated. We use it sometimes like there's an established top 4 where only top 4 defenseman play.

That's not how it works anymore. You make your pairings based on chemistry and to create depth. For coaches like Bednar and others, they shuffle things up constantly. Even within games. The term top 4 defenseman should be applied to ability not how the pairings are formed.

Zadorov making $4M or so a year playing on the "3rd pair" behind Byram and Girard isn't the issue. The Avs should probably be able to afford that for the next few years. The main issue IMO that will lead Z to being traded is expansion.

If they add another high end forward, they'll need to go the 7-3 route, and even though some would like to see it, I don't think Sakic will ask EJ to waive his NMC.

I think Sakic respects EJ and the loyalty he's shown too much, and there's a good chance Seattle would be able to fit him under the cap if he did anyway. They could still pick him up as a mentor for a young blueline, and he may still be better than a lot of defenseman that are exposed as well.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Z would be a bottom paring quality defensemen that is paid like a middle pairing defensemen. That is a hard sell to any team. At best Z is a 4/5, but his play shows more on the 5 side... a lot more. We've seen plenty of that level of defensemen with similar contracts to what Z would have, and they can be moved, but it is much harder than is being stated and usually involves eating some sort of **** sandwich. Zaitsev (and Ceci in the same deal), Gudbranson, DeHann, etc.

If I would be a betting man I would bet that it wouldn't be that hard to find a GM that sees him as a top-4. After all it takes only one to make that deal. And that is assiuming he won't keep improving a little this season and next. Yeah Yeah I know, you think what you see now is what you get with Z but it wouldn't be a stretch for him to improve enough in the next year and a half to be a true #4. And aren't one of the guys stressing that we need to win as soon as possible because of the Mack years. Playing Z instead of Cole would help with that next season at least.

 

[henchman21]

If I would be a betting man I would bet that it wouldn't be that hard to find a GM that sees him as a top-4. After all it takes only one to make that deal. And that is assiuming he won't keep improving a little this season and next. Yeah Yeah I know, you think what you see now is what you get with Z but it wouldn't be a stretch for him to improve enough in the next year and a half to be a true #4. And aren't one of the guys stressing that we need to win as soon as possible because of the Mack years. Playing Z instead of Cole would help with that next season at least.

Z's name has been in trade rumors for over a year now... if some team really saw him as a legit top 4, they would have paid the Avs enough to move on from him. The he's only __ meme seems to live on with what you're saying. It is always possible he could improve, but is far, far more likely he is peaking right now. By the time a defensemen is 22/23 they are usually nearing the top of their game. At 24 they are normally at the top of their game.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Z's name has been in trade rumors for over a year now... if some team really saw him as a legit top 4, they would have paid the Avs enough to move on from him. The he's only __ meme seems to live on with what you're saying. It is always possible he could improve, but is far, far more likely he is peaking right now. By the time a defensemen is 22/23 they are usually nearing the top of their game. At 24 they are normally at the top of their game.

Well I've seen an improvement this year in his play so I'd argue he might not be done improving. What is getting him in trouble this year is more his dump penalties (retaliation, 2 mins for being big, etc.)

 

[Pokecheque]

If I would be a betting man I would bet that it wouldn't be that hard to find a GM that sees him as a top-4. After all it takes only one to make that deal. And that is assiuming he won't keep improving a little this season and next. Yeah Yeah I know, you think what you see now is what you get with Z but it wouldn't be a stretch for him to improve enough in the next year and a half to be a true #4. And aren't one of the guys stressing that we need to win as soon as possible because of the Mack years. Playing Z instead of Cole would help with that next season at least.

Actually, yes, it would be. He turns 25 this season, which is generally agreed as the age where a player really stops any sort of development. And there's no evidence whatsoever that Z has another level to reach. I get that he shows up in the odd game here and there and looks like a force, but more often than not we're seeing a guy with very limited upside.

Here's the thing, 1-on-1 I think he is very good. Where it really falls apart is when he has to cover more than one player, when he has to read the play and anticipate where the puck is going next. He doesn't really know enough to get in passing lanes to disrupt plays, or tie up the open man, or properly get in the way of shots. And it's because he's always having to react, because he's a step slow in that regard.

And it's because of all that that I think he's actually a very bad PK guy, even Nemeth was far superior in that regard. His mental game is as good as it's going to get. And this is totally discounting his penchant for dumb penalties, which simply can't be ignored.

I say this as a fan of Big Z. Not often you will find a guy with a hulking frame like that who can move that fast. I love the personality, THAT I will miss the most by far. And he really can change the tide of a game with a big hit or a big shot that finds its way into the net, but the Avs are simply not gonna pony up big $$$ for that when cap room is an issue going forward. Saying "well, someone may end up being stupid enough to trade for him later" is not sufficient grounds to overpay him.

 

[henchman21]

Well I've seen an improvement this year in his play so I'd argue he might not be done improving. What is getting him in trouble this year is more his dump penalties (retaliation, 2 mins for being big, etc.)

In what way has Z improved this year?

 

[AnimalMother73]

They are essentially playing two rookie D-men this year, in Graves and Makar. They also had Timmins up earlier in the year, so the organization seems ok, going with young guys. I would be very surprised if either Byram, or Timmins is traded. Both offer pretty big upside. Sakic has maintained he wants to build a winner long term and part of that means staying with the young guys as they develop.

Also, don’t be surprised if Timmins is back with the Avs before the season is out.

I definitely think it makes the most sense to spread out potential growing pains by having Timmins up by mid-year.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Actually, yes, it would be. He turns 25 this season, which is generally agreed as the age where a player really stops any sort of development. And there's no evidence whatsoever that Z has another level to reach. I get that he shows up in the odd game here and there and looks like a force, but more often than not we're seeing a guy with very limited upside.

Here's the thing, 1-on-1 I think he is very good. Where it really falls apart is when he has to cover more than one player, when he has to read the play and anticipate where the puck is going next. He doesn't really know enough to get in passing lanes to disrupt plays, or tie up the open man, or properly get in the way of shots. And it's because he's always having to react, because he's a step slow in that regard.

And it's because of all that that I think he's actually a very bad PK guy, even Nemeth was far superior in that regard. His mental game is as good as it's going to get. And this is totally discounting his penchant for dumb penalties, which simply can't be ignored.

I say this as a fan of Big Z. Not often you will find a guy with a hulking frame like that who can move that fast. I love the personality, THAT I will miss the most by far. And he really can change the tide of a game with a big hit or a big shot that finds its way into the net, but the Avs are simply not gonna pony up big $$$ for that when cap room is an issue going forward. Saying "well, someone may end up being stupid enough to trade for him later" is not sufficient grounds to overpay him.

Well agree to disagree with you guys.

As for your last paragraph...Cole would need to go if I re-sign Z to that money and i don't think it would take that much of an idiot GM to trade for him.

Anyway my point was more about we need somebody to hep Byram transition at a slower pace so he doesn't have so much pressure on himself. I just think Z fills that need more than Cole. I don't like Z at that price for 5 years by the way. I would much prefer a 2-year contract but Z might not be happy with that but he is still under control so he doesn't have much leverage even if he can go to arbitration.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

In what way has Z improved this year?

I don't think he has made as many dump plays as in the past years.

 

[Pokecheque]

Well agree to disagree with you guys.

As for your last paragraph...Cole would need to go if I re-sign Z to that money and i don't think it would take that much of an idiot GM to trade for him.

Anyway my point was more about we need somebody to hep Byram transition at a slower pace so he doesn't have so much pressure on himself. I just think Z fills that need more than Cole. I don't like Z at that price for 5 years by the way. I would much prefer a 2-year contract but Z might not be happy with that but he is still under control so he doesn't have much leverage even if he can go to arbitration.

Again, the logic here escapes me. Dump a not-great contract in Cole, but one that's set to expire after next season, so the team can sign a more expensive but similarly-questionable deal with Z, with the possibility of dumping THAT one later as well.

 

[cgf]

When Z is getting over paid to be a bottom pairing player, his value is going to be pretty poor and he may not be all that easy to trade. I prefer Z over Cole in a vacuum, I prefer Cole at 4.25m for the rest of this season and next over Z for 4.5m for 5 seasons after this. You have to make a long-term commitment to Z and you have to be willing to live with that contract if it comes to it. Just take a look over at Gudbranson... the Pens had to dump him to Anaheim for basically nothing because he basically had 2 seasons left at $4m. The Pens got him for a player that was also on a bad contract and playing really poorly for them. Pearson was an undesirable asset. That is with Gudbranson being on a 3 year $4m per deal. Z on a 5 year (with 3 or 4 left) and 4.5m per is going to be a much harder trade.

Not sure you needed to include the basically in this case. Guds got moved for as close to a literal bag of pucks as a GM can get lol

I dunno if this is the best counter-point; since they did get out of the Guds contract without having to pay someone to take him off their hands. So if Zads will settle for 4 years, couldn't we do the same if GMBM hasn't been fired by then?

Z would be a bottom paring quality defensemen that is paid like a middle pairing defensemen. That is a hard sell to any team. At best Z is a 4/5, but his play shows more on the 5 side... a lot more. We've seen plenty of that level of defensemen with similar contracts to what Z would have, and they can be moved, but it is much harder than is being stated and usually involves eating some sort of **** sandwich. Zaitsev (and Ceci in the same deal), Gudbranson, DeHann, etc.

Does another run past round 1, with Zads on the up...like last spring, not to the dream level that Zads may have once had the potential to reach...give him that "playoff warrior label" for Joe to sell some Dinosaur on?

I want to believe

 

[cgf]

I saw that and laughed out loud.

Zads is a simple man; he loves "make hit" & he loves "score goal"

 

[henchman21]

I don't think he has made as many dump plays as in the past years.

But by the numbers his offense is down, he's giving up more chances against, taking more penalties, etc. To me, he's not playing a ton worse than last year, maybe a touch but close with in a realm and it is a small sample size that I'd say equivalent. I don't see an argument at all for better.

 

[henchman21]

Not sure you needed to include the basically in this case. Guds got moved for as close to a bag of pucks as a GM can get lol

I dunno if this is the best counter-point; since they did get out of the Guds contract without having to pay someone to take him off their hands. So if Zads will settle for 4 years, couldn't we do the same?


Does another run past round 1, with Zads on the up...like last spring, not even to the dream level that Zads once had the potential to reach...give him that "playoff warrior label" for Joe to sell some Dinosaur on?

I don't think you'd have to pay to have Z taken off your hands, but you're either not getting anything or you're taking back another distressed asset.