Speculation: 2019-2020 Sharks Roster Discussion, part quattro

[STL Shark]

Yeah. Trading Labanc would be terrible. Plus moving him just creates another hole so unless we are getting an Ehlers like guy back (who is a significant upgrade), it is pointless moving Labanc.

I would not move Merkley for a rental Kreider. No freaking way. I think something like 2nd + Chmelevski gets it done but honestly I would not move Chmelevski for Kreider either. If he can be had for 2nd + Blichfeld or the likes of that level of prospect, I am fine. If not, lets just keep our prospects, re-sign Jumbo and bring back Patty. Hopefully our prospects catch lightning in a bottle and make this our year.

Why would you "no freaking way" move Merkley for Kreider but would rather send out literally our only center prospect in the pipeline with a shot at making it as a top 6 NHL player for him? Makes absolutely zero sense. Chmelevski holds infinitely more value in my book than Merkley does due to playing a more premier position and because we have two best case scenario versions of Merkley already signed on our blue line for the next 6+ years.

There is not really anywhere for him to go within the organization for awhile. As long as Burns and Karlsson are here, that 3rd pairing RD needs to be a defensive guy that can PK and that will never be Merkley. You can find insanely talented offensive D-Men that are undersized in just about every draft. No need to hold onto Merkley for the next 5 years when you can flip him for immediate help and replenish that void in coming draft classes.

 

[AgentCooper]

I think the best case and somewhat reasonable scenario would be:

Trade picks/prospects/maybe a small cap dump like M. Karlsson (if NYR can take him) for Kreider
Dump Dell and call up Bibeau
Sign Thornton and Marleau for about 2 mil total (1.2/.8, 1.3/.7, 1/1, whatever)

Build a monster, any-matchup top line.
Build a second line that can feast on other lines.
Let 8 or 9 solid depth players duke it out for the bottom six slots.

I haven't run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure this works cap-wise.

Meier - Hertl - Kreider
Kane - Couture - Labanc
Sorensen - Thornton - Chekhovich
Marleau - Suomela/Gambrell - Brodzinski
(Radil)

Vlasic - Karlsson
Simek - Burns
Dillon - Heed
(Prout)

Jones
Bibeau

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Patty is signing for $700k or nothing so not worried about that one whatsoever. I think Jumbo comes back at about $1.5 mil as well. Just curious to see what we do with the cap space. Would leave us with $3,217,583 in cap space if those two re-sign at those clips and then sending Middleton back to the Cuda leaving the roster with 13F 7D 2G. Would still be down a top 6 forward and would have a pair of extra bottom 6 forwards. Need to find a way to combine some of those excess bottom 6 guys like Sorensen, Radil, Melker, etc. with other assets into a package for a top 6 winger.

I hope you are right about those numbers. I would not be surprised if Joe comes back at 1M considering the good relationship he has with Labanc and the salary that Labanc took. With the comments/rumors swirling around about Jumbo coming back for cheap at the time the Tavares FA talks were going on, I think Jumbo wants to continue playing hockey in SJ and still give us the best chance to win the cup. As far as Patty goes, I agree. I think if he does NOT come back for under 1M, I really don't sure if I want him.

If we end up getting Patty, it would be mean Jumbo and Patty are locks for the bottom-6. Of the remaining 4 spots, Goodrow, Melker and Sorensen are locks the way our roster currently looks. Which means we only have 2 spots open on the roster. Also, the 3.2 M + Dell/Melker/Sorensen give us enough room for a Namestikov/Kreider. Will need to move 2 of those guys if we want to land a player making more. I know forward depth is a bonus but the problem is that we have a lot of 'meh' players in that bottom-6 that are eating spots from the kids.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Why would you "no freaking way" move Merkley for Kreider but would rather send out literally our only center prospect in the pipeline with a shot at making it as a top 6 NHL player for him? Makes absolutely zero sense. Chmelevski holds infinitely more value in my book than Merkley does due to playing a more premier position and because we have two best case scenario versions of Merkley already signed on our blue line for the next 6+ years.

There is not really anywhere for him to go within the organization for awhile. As long as Burns and Karlsson are here, that 3rd pairing RD needs to be a defensive guy that can PK and that will never be Merkley. You can find insanely talented offensive D-Men that are undersized in just about every draft. No need to hold onto Merkley for the next 5 years when you can flip him for immediate help and replenish that void in coming draft classes.

I rate Merkley as our top prospect. I rate Chmelevski are our 3rd best prospect behind Chekhovich. Chmelevski's ceiling is a good 2C. Merkley's is a top-pairing D-man. If you read my post, I said I wouldn't move Chemelevski for Kreider either. I just said I think that would get it done. Also, moving Merkley for a player simply because we had depth at D is poor asset management. The move has to make sense for the future if we are moving our top-prospect.

Also, if I am moving Merkley, it is not going to be for a rental. Especially not a rental like Kreider. The guy has never hit more than 53 points in a season. Some of you guys are high on him but I have my reservations with regards to both his production and the ability to re-sign him.

 

[KirbyDots]

My feelings exactly. Unless NYR is like wayyy high on Merkley, I don’t think we have the assets. Maybe Labanc, but after this contract I would consider DW a huge POS for moving him. That’s a team friendly deal from him, because he wants to play here. Would be a huge betrayal to see him moved. So IDK what’s left to acquire Kreider. 2nd ain’t gonna get the job done.

We have assets. Our 2021 1st and a prospect would probably do just fine. The point being that as of right now there is small window were we can probably trade for Kreider at pennies on the dollar. DW is an opportunist, he knows our team needs, I'm sure he has at least inquired.

Now Zucker might cost more, Fenton has sent mixed signals about his availability and would probably want more assets as he's signed long term. The reasonable long term contract might convince me it's worth it to part with one of our better prospects and a high pick, but I prefer Kreider for a few reasons.

 

[KirbyDots]

https://thehockeywriters.com/rangers-kreider-contract-conundrum-2019/

Write up on the Kreider situation.

 

[Patty Ice]

I would not move Merkley for a rental Kreider. No freaking way. I think something like 2nd + Chmelevski gets it done but honestly I would not move Chmelevski for Kreider either. If he can be had for 2nd + Blichfeld or the likes of that level of prospect, I am fine. If not, lets just keep our prospects, re-sign Jumbo and bring back Patty. Hopefully our prospects catch lightning in a bottle and make this our year.

I did some poling around the Rangers board asking about what they would want in Kreider/Namestnikov deals. One guy suggested Gregor and a 1st for Kreider.

 

[Patty Ice]

Patty is signing for $700k or nothing so not worried about that one whatsoever. I think Jumbo comes back at about $1.5 mil as well. Just curious to see what we do with the cap space. Would leave us with $3,217,583 in cap space if those two re-sign at those clips and then sending Middleton back to the Cuda leaving the roster with 13F 7D 2G. Would still be down a top 6 forward and would have a pair of extra bottom 6 forwards. Need to find a way to combine some of those excess bottom 6 guys like Sorensen, Radil, Melker, etc. with other assets into a package for a top 6 winger.

At this point, I think Jumbo just wants the best chance at winning a Cup. So I wouldn't be surprised if he took a min deal to maximize Doug's ability to add another player.

 

[Sharksrule04]

I don't.

He can get a kick out of it all he wants, his bosses might not think its so funny when a big chunk of the loyal fanbase hates the dude.

People don't though. It's mostly just the message board people who hate on him. His Athletic page gets plenty of hits and tons of supportive commentary as does his twitter following. Kurz is a perfectly good reporter and people need to stop being so sensitive. Sure there are times where he seems a little bitter but I can relate with how easy it is to be triggered by people on Twitter.

 

[Patty Ice]

I rate Merkley as our top prospect. I rate Chmelevski are our 3rd best prospect behind Chekhovich. Chmelevski's ceiling is a good 2C.

I hate when people put ceilings on any prospect. What would you have considered Pavs ceiling when he was a prospect?

You never know what can happen in a guy's development (admittedly some guys show a lot more than others). It is not out of the realm of possibility that Sasha becomes a dominant player.

 

[Lebanezer]

I hate when people put ceilings on any prospect. What would you have considered Pavs ceiling when he was a prospect?

You never know what can happen in a guy's development (admittedly some guys show a lot more than others). It is not out of the realm of possibility that Sasha becomes a dominant player.

AHL 3C.

 

[Used As A Shield]

AHL 3C.

Man, those bring back some memories of just how off the ratings were back then, especially relating to Sharks. I guess in some aspect that hasn't changed, outside of the Sharks not many know about Sharks prospects.

 

[SjMilhouse]

Sounds like Trouba is close to signing a 7 year deal around 7.5M-8M AAV with the Rangers. I am expecting a couple of trades soon from them after because they still have Buchnevich and DeAngelo to re-sign.

yeesh and people say Burns was overpaid

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I hate when people put ceilings on any prospect. What would you have considered Pavs ceiling when he was a prospect?

You never know what can happen in a guy's development (admittedly some guys show a lot more than others). It is not out of the realm of possibility that Sasha becomes a dominant player.

I have said several times in the past that these prospects are just kids who have not matured physically let alone mentally. It is hard to say how they will end up in the future so most of the projections are on the basis of current skill and future development. It may not be 'fair' but that is how prospects are valued.

 

[STL Shark]

I did some poling around the Rangers board asking about what they would want in Kreider/Namestnikov deals. One guy suggested Gregor and a 1st for Kreider.

I think any trade for a top 6 winger directly involves Sorensen going the other way.

Firstly, we would need to move or have the other team retain $1.5-2.0 mil on any addition that is likely to be worthwhile. Ideally, that would be Melker, but he holds minimal (at best) value and expires at the end of the deal. Sorensen is signed for $1.5 mil for this year and next and coming off a 17 goal season. He is likely to hold decent value while also allowing us to move the necessary money needed to make an addition to the top 6.

Secondly, with the high likelihood of bringing Marleau in, he replaces Sorensen's skillset seamlessly on the 3rd line for half the cost. We would have a huge surplus of bottom 6 forwards if we add a top 6 forward and then also sign 12 and 19 (Sorensen, Jumbo, Marleau, Gambrell, Goodrow, Karlsson, Radil, Brodzinski) while having nowhere for the kids to play.

I would propose moving Sorensen+Pick/Prospect package for any top 6 addition we get and rolling the following:
Trade-Couture-Meier
Kane-Hertl-Labanc
Marleau-Thornton-Prospect
Goodrow-Gambrell/Brodzinski-Karlsson
Radil/Brodzinski as 13/14 forwards.

Sorensen is not really missed in this proposed lineup at all imo. Sure, it would be a luxury to maybe have him on the 4th line, but that would move Goodrow back to center (which no one wants). If none of the prospects can fully take the 3rd line wing spot, make a depth addition at the TDL and move on. Most of the teams with top 6 guys available are not in full tank/rebuild mode, so giving them a relatively young top 9 NHL player with 2 years at a manageable cap hit is likely more enticing than just a package of futures that are multiple years away.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

People don't though. It's mostly just the message board people who hate on him. His Athletic page gets plenty of hits and tons of supportive commentary as does his twitter following. Kurz is a perfectly good reporter and people need to stop being so sensitive. Sure there are times where he seems a little bitter but I can relate with how easy it is to be triggered by people on Twitter.

What do you think the message board people are? The message board people are a big part of the demographic that writers like him are trying to do business with. The criticisms that go his way from various sources far outweigh the echo chamber of his twitter and Athletic pages that are likely a lot of the same people. I disagree that he's a perfectly good reporter. These conversations about him go into plenty of detail as to why he isn't. It has nothing to do with sensitivity. It has to do with how and what he writes about and how he conducts himself. He is on the whole of it lazy with his material and his arguments with people.

 

[RussianShark]

Would have liked Dzingel for that term and cap hit.

 

[LA Shark]

I think any trade for a top 6 winger directly involves Sorensen going the other way.

Firstly, we would need to move or have the other team retain $1.5-2.0 mil on any addition that is likely to be worthwhile. Ideally, that would be Melker, but he holds minimal (at best) value and expires at the end of the deal. Sorensen is signed for $1.5 mil for this year and next and coming off a 17 goal season. He is likely to hold decent value while also allowing us to move the necessary money needed to make an addition to the top 6.

Secondly, with the high likelihood of bringing Marleau in, he replaces Sorensen's skillset seamlessly on the 3rd line for half the cost. We would have a huge surplus of bottom 6 forwards if we add a top 6 forward and then also sign 12 and 19 (Sorensen, Jumbo, Marleau, Gambrell, Goodrow, Karlsson, Radil, Brodzinski) while having nowhere for the kids to play.

I would propose moving Sorensen+Pick/Prospect package for any top 6 addition we get and rolling the following:
Trade-Couture-Meier
Kane-Hertl-Labanc
Marleau-Thornton-Prospect
Goodrow-Gambrell/Brodzinski-Karlsson
Radil/Brodzinski as 13/14 forwards.

Sorensen is not really missed in this proposed lineup at all imo. Sure, it would be a luxury to maybe have him on the 4th line, but that would move Goodrow back to center (which no one wants). If none of the prospects can fully take the 3rd line wing spot, make a depth addition at the TDL and move on. Most of the teams with top 6 guys available are not in full tank/rebuild mode, so giving them a relatively young top 9 NHL player with 2 years at a manageable cap hit is likely more enticing than just a package of futures that are multiple years away.

Borderline if we could stay under the cap by just trading Sorenson. I believe trading Melker would give us 4.8 of cap room, so trading Sorenson would leave us with 4.3. Melker being the roster player going the other way would work much better for us anyways. I'd do a Melker and Merkley package for Kreider. I'd rather do it for Zucker, but that would include more assets and dumping Dell.

 

[Sharksrule04]

Yeah. Trading Labanc would be terrible. Plus moving him just creates another hole so unless we are getting an Ehlers like guy back (who is a significant upgrade), it is pointless moving Labanc.

I would not move Merkley for a rental Kreider. No freaking way. I think something like 2nd + Chmelevski gets it done but honestly I would not move Chmelevski for Kreider either. If he can be had for 2nd + Blichfeld or the likes of that level of prospect, I am fine. If not, lets just keep our prospects, re-sign Jumbo and bring back Patty. Hopefully our prospects catch lightning in a bottle and make this our year.

I'd move Merkley before any of the Ch-twins or Ferraro. The other 3 are pretty much guaranteed to be NHLers at this point. Merkley I have hope for but we have Burns and Karlsson for the next 6-8 years. I don't think we need a Merkley in our system as much as we need the other 3.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I'd move Merkley before any of the Ch-twins or Ferraro. The other 3 are pretty much guaranteed to be NHLers at this point. Merkley I have hope for but we have Burns and Karlsson for the next 6-8 years. I don't think we need a Merkley in our system as much as we need the other 3.

I am not opposed to moving Merkley if the right situation comes by. I have never said that I don't want to move him. I try to not get too attached to players/prospects because if there is a deal to be had where said player/prospect needs to be moved to make the team better, I am all for it. I just don't think rentals like Kreider or Namestikov are good enough for me to move Merkley.

Also, I agree that the Ch-twins and Ferraro have a 'better' chance of being NHL'ers but there is no guarantee. Neither has played even 1 game at the NHL level. I am not of the same opinion as some others that Merkley should be moved over the others simply because we have more depth at D with Burns and Erik Karlsson. By the same logic, we have enough depth at C with Couture and Hertl for the next few years and Chmeleveski would be at best a 3C.

 

[Patty Ice]

I just don't think rentals like Kreider or Namestikov are good enough for me to move Merkley.

I agree. If I am moving Merkley, it is for a guy locked up long term at a good price like Ehlers or Zucker.

 

[Sharksrule04]

What do you think the message board people are? The message board people are a big part of the demographic that writers like him are trying to do business with. The criticisms that go his way from various sources far outweigh the echo chamber of his twitter and Athletic pages that are likely a lot of the same people. I disagree that he's a perfectly good reporter. These conversations about him go into plenty of detail as to why he isn't. It has nothing to do with sensitivity. It has to do with how and what he writes about and how he conducts himself. He is on the whole of it lazy with his material and his arguments with people.

Agree to disagree. I think Kurz does a good job reporting Sharks related material. If people don't like his sarcastic "anti advanced stats & message board" mantra that's fine, it doesn't bother me. There are other Sharks reporters and Kurz is really easy to avoid as his writing is entirely done behind a pay wall and his commentary is pretty much only on Twitter. NHL network frequently uses him as their Sharks contact which shows that he has respect around the industry.

 

[Barrie22]

Agree to disagree. I think Kurz does a good job reporting Sharks related material. If people don't like his sarcastic "anti advanced stats & message board" mantra that's fine, it doesn't bother me. There are other Sharks reporters and Kurz is really easy to avoid as his writing is entirely done behind a pay wall and his commentary is pretty much only on Twitter. NHL network frequently uses him as their Sharks contact which shows that he has respect around the industry.

Isn't kurz the one paid for by the sharks organization?

 

[hockeyfan55]

Man, I k ow it’s risky but looking at Gusevs numbers in the KHL compared to teammates makes me want him. If the Sharks can pick up a Panarin lite for 4m/yr we would be deadly

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Man, I k ow it’s risky but looking at Gusevs numbers in the KHL compared to teammates makes me want him. If the Sharks can pick up a Panarin lite for 4m/yr we would be deadly

I think 4M AAV over a 1-2 year deal would be fine for him given the risk/reward. But I just don't see the Knights trading him to us or DW willing to give up so much money to a player with 0 games in the NHL