2019/20 Roster Thread XXXIV

[Curufinwe]

Passing Ability is far too often overlooked as an essential, fundamental hockey skill.

Being able to pass accurately under pressure is the most important skill in the game, assuming a player can at least skate above the Matt Strome level.

 

[captainpaxil]

People still clamoring for a sniper probably think Giroux is still a center who needs a winger to snipe home his passes.

It's not like g didn't spend the better part of a decade without one.
Would everyone be complaining if we Got panarin for Hayes money?

Hart is about to play his first playoff round where for me is what distinguishes the real good from the elite. I'm just glad starting goalie didn't make the list

 

[TB87]

I don't think people in general are good at sussing out causes from effects in real time, myself included.

Yeah. Happens to us all. I like to watch games (at any level) more than once because no matter how dialed in I am I’m going to miss things.

It’d be great to have an eidetic memory

 

[DAVIDE1333]

I'm just glad starting goalie didn't make the list

Are you saying that's not a problem?

 

[BritainStix]

It's not like having a true sniper would hurt though?

Outside of a backup goaltender, we don't actually need anything else.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I was just about to post something similar but you beat me to it. Ya jerk!


Seriously though, the “We need a sniper” crowd is hilarious. Gimme a playmaker over a sniper any day. They actually impact the game at multiple levels. The pre-shot movement of a goal sequence is integral to the end result. Snipers, a lot of the time, depend entirely too much on their linemates to not only get them the puck, but to create open space for them to get the puck to get their shot off. Not always of course, but frequently.

Passing Ability is far too often overlooked as an essential, fundamental hockey skill.

Like yeah I want an Ovechkin, Pasternak, Matthews, etc. who give you 40+ goals on top of being all around offensive facilitators. But those guys don’t grow on trees.

As currently shaped we go like 6-7 deep (maybe a bit more) with guys capable of scoring 20+ goals in a full season. We have a few defensemen capable of hitting 10+ too.

 

[tymed]

The calls for a sniper are in the past now largely in part to the fact that our team is finally emerging from a decade long slump and have all kinds of new talent to plug in and test out in different arrangements. This team has always been so shallow until the last few years of home grown breakouts.

For countless years, this club lived and died almost exclusively on the back of the PP. There were fans that were reasonably questioning the idea of having a career below average shooter sitting across from the best PP passer of said past decade, when the scheme was to get every single play back to Giroux anyways. It's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have held, and at very least want to have seen experimented more genuinely with.

Being a "shooter" doesn't have any implied suggestion that a shooter can't also be above average at other aspects of the game any less so than a "playmaker", so why is it spoken of with that context automatically applied?

Regardless of a team's need for someone who can beat goalies on consistent basis, ofcourse it should not have any effect on draft strategy and cause deviation of any kind away from taking the BPA, esp in the 1st round.

I always wanted to see a left handed shooter to smash home Giroux's godlike passes, and cement him even more firmly in the title he deserves.

With the new look of having TK also on Giroux's side, it takes any of my personal care about having someone across from them with a + shot and I actually really really like Jake in that spot now if we're going to put more focus on his passing instead of being a bumper to get every play back to Giroux no matter what, then not being able to finish off the passes. He isn't a creative passer but he's crazy accurate and with 2 right handed options to dish to, he's the guy to have on that side without anything left to wonder about.

Ghost needs to be on PP1.

I like the thought of replacing Coots on PP1 to conserve his energy for ES and PK going into the playoffs. Coots is everything. We have JVR paid to do that type of thing, and Hayes as another paid option. It's worth the thought either way.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

It's not like having a true sniper would hurt though?

Outside of a backup goaltender, we don't actually need anything else.

We signed JVR who’s paced for over 30 goals the last two seasons yet a good chunk of people think he sucks anyway (likely a strong correlation between that group & the need a true sniper group too).

 

[TB87]

It's way more cost-effective to draft and develop a sniper with plus passing abilities than it is to acquire one. Acquiring one costs too much and ultimately, in mannnny cases, the ROI ends up being a wash.

What's ironic about that poll on The Athletic is that the Flyers have some prospects who have legitimately great shots (Farabee, Frost, Brink, Allison, etc).


Following prospects as closely as we do on this board isn't commonplace so I guess that it makes sense for John Q Public to have an appetite for the low-hanging fruit ("The Flyers need a sniper to get this team over the top.")

 

[Striiker]

Ghost needs to be on PP1.

 

[TCTC]

Ultimately, getting JVR instead of Stastny may have been a blessing in disguise. Hayes is better than Stastny at this point in their careers and now we have JVR and Hayes instead of just Stastny.

 

[tymed]

Seriously though. I don't understand why Provorov is there, my only guess being contract stipulations of guaranteed PP1 opportunity, but can only guess.

Either way, it better not be an issue now that the regular season is over, because then I'll actually have to let myself get upset about it.

Ghost not being on PP1 is disgrace imho. We finally have a great ES team, but that doesn't change that the coaches (and maybe contracts?) have held back that PP1 in egregious fashion this season.

I won't nitpick every last decision that's made because there's always more than meets the eye sitting on HF boards at home and not being in the organization, but the PP situation has been hard to cope with.

 

[TB87]

Being a "shooter" doesn't have any implied suggestion that a shooter can't also be above average at other aspects of the game any less so than a "playmaker", so why is it spoken of with that context automatically applied?

Eh....there are innumerable examples of prospects, NHLers, or just pro hockey players in general throughout the years who can shoot the puck and can't really do much else at an above average level. The Ovechkins, Pastrnak's, & Matthews of the world are unicorns in that aspect. Even a player like JVR is unique in this aspect. If you're going to bring in a sniper, those are the types to bring in.

They're a rarity though and that's why I prefer playmakers. Playmakers tend to drive lines & dictate play. The goal in building a good hockey team is to bring in as many drivers as possible. Playmakers, just by being who they are, are more of a threat than a pure shooter because they create a higher level of uncertainty about their intentions in the offensive zone. Being a great passer opens up a lot of space for themselves and their teammates. The more well-rounded a forward is offensively, the harded it is to defend against them.

 

[Stizzle]

Ghost needs to be on PP1.

I will never stop advocating for Travis Sanheim on PP1. The true forgotten one.

 

[Striiker]

Seriously though. I don't understand why Provorov is there, my only guess being contract stipulations of guaranteed PP1 opportunity, but can only guess.

Either way, it better not be an issue now that the regular season is over, because then I'll actually have to let myself get upset about it.

Ghost not being on PP1 is disgrace imho. We finally have a great ES team, but that doesn't change that the coaches (and maybe contracts?) have held back that PP1 in egregious fashion this season.

I think it's for a few reasons.

1) he got some lucky PP points throughout the year and they think it's sustainable (I believe he had a 33% shooting% for a while)
2) the top PP has been successful when he's been on it and it wasn't with Ghost.... but they're too stupid to realize that it's because they never had Ghost on the unit with Giroux on the correct side and the unit has never been successful with Giroux on the wrong side, no matter who else is on it.
3) they don't know about anything that happened on this team in previous years because they admitted they didn't do their homework before coming here so they don't know Provorovs history of being terrible on the PP and Ghosts history of being elite. That's also why thy didn't know Giroux MUST be on the left side of the unit.

 

[Striiker]

I will never stop advocating for Travis Sanheim on PP1. The true forgotten one.

I love Sanheim too but Ghost is too great there to be removed. f*** it, try putting them both on the unit.

If not, then put Ghost on the Giroux unit, Sanheim on the 2nd, and then if the dark day comes when Ghost is traded, Sanheim takes the spot.

 

[tymed]

Eh....there are innumerable examples of prospects, NHLers, or just pro hockey players in general throughout the years who can shoot the puck and can't really do much else at an above average level. The Ovechkins, Pastrnak's, & Matthews of the world are unicorns in that aspect. Even a player like JVR is unique in this aspect. If you're going to bring in a sniper, those are the types to bring in.

They're a rarity though and that's why I prefer playmakers. Playmakers tend to drive lines & dictate play. The goal in building a good hockey team is to bring in as many drivers as possible. Playmakers, just by being who they are, are more of a threat than a pure shooter because they create a higher level of uncertainty about their intentions in the offensive zone. Being a great passer opens up a lot of space for themselves and their teammates. The more well-rounded a forward is offensively, the harded it is to defend against them.

I don't disagree with any of this. I was mostly trying to add some missing context to the conversation. These conversations are always a lot more nuanced in real time than when being referenced in the past.

Shooters are often regarded with less scrutiny by casual fans forsure, and some GMs even get roped into too much forgiving in analysis of other areas in it's light. Of course, that's a mistake.

 

[tymed]

I give the coaches more slack with nitpicking line up decisions as a whole, ie, pairings, lines etc. because there's a lot more to consider in that orchestra.

Focusing on a small area like the PP1 though, I'm less willing the give them a pass. It takes a lot less brainstorming and calculating to arrive at the most effective and efficient setup with available personnel. You don't have to do anything but pick the 5 guys you think would be the most effective in whatever setup you think would be the most effective for them. How they messed that up so badly, it's tough to say but they deserve to be called out for it. They get some credit for finding that TK combo because it wasn't sitting right there but the wrongs they've done to this unit over the year far outweigh the rights.

They may "not have done their homework" or something inexcusable like that, but I wouldn't believe any of them if they told me they hadn't feared our powerplay and looked very closely at it over the last decade coaching in this league. All things considered, it's most likely Therien and his ego that was the root of this.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's not like g didn't spend the better part of a decade without one.
Would everyone be complaining if we Got panarin for Hayes money?

Hart is about to play his first playoff round where for me is what distinguishes the real good from the elite. I'm just glad starting goalie didn't make the list

Panarin is more of a playmaker than a sniper, but yeah it would great to get a player at a $4.5m discount for no reason.

 

[Striiker]

I give the coaches more slack with nitpicking line up decisions as a whole, ie, pairings, lines etc. because there's a lot more to consider in that orchestra.

Focusing on a small area like the PP1 though, I'm less willing the give them a pass. It takes a lot less brainstorming and calculating to arrive at the most effective and efficient setup with available personnel. You don't have to do anything but pick the 5 guys you think would be the most effective in whatever setup you think would be the most effective for them. How they messed that up so badly, it's tough to say but they deserve to be called out for it. They get some credit for finding that TK combo because it wasn't sitting right there but the wrongs they've done to this unit over the year far outweigh the rights.

They may "not have done their homework" or something inexcusable like that, but I wouldn't believe any of them if they told me they hadn't feared our powerplay and looked very closely at it over the last decade coaching in this league. All things considered, it's most likely Therien and his ego that was the root of this.

That's exactly the thing. Wanting to try things with lines and pairs is fine... but messing with a PP unit that's been consistently elite for YEARS is just unacceptable. Especially when it means screwing with the 3 players who are most important on it, G, Jake, and Ghost.

 

[Curufinwe]

Past 3 seasons

NHL.com Stats

Giroux: 77 G, 163 A, 240 P

Panarin: 87 G, 177 A, 264 P

 

[BritainStix]

We signed JVR who’s paced for over 30 goals the last two seasons yet a good chunk of people think he sucks anyway (likely a strong correlation between that group & the need a true sniper group too).

I wouldn't necessarily call JVR a sniper. He's more a pidgin. Scores more of his goals from 2 yards out, proper garbage goal player.

I think people have been crying for a shooter, a Laine, Matthews, Stamkos mold of a player. Someone to sit off Frost/Giroux/Voracek's shoulder to pummel home one timers.

I don't don't particularly agree with it, namely because there arent any available at a reasonale cost. Labling them all as dumb seems a tad excessive though.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Past 3 seasons

NHL.com Stats

Giroux: 77 G, 163 A, 240 P

Panarin: 87 G, 177 A, 264 P

I saw a lot of his games this year. Panarin is a great all around player. Imo top twenty in the league today.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I wouldn't necessarily call JVR a sniper. He's more a pidgin. Scores more of his goals from 2 yards out, proper garbage goal player.

I think people have been crying for a shooter, a Laine, Matthews, Stamkos mold of a player. Someone to sit off Frost/Giroux/Voracek's shoulder to pummel home one timers.

I don't don't particularly agree with it, namely because there arent any available at a reasonale cost. Labling them all as dumb seems a tad excessive though.

You realize most of the goals scored in today’s game are in close? Like even the best shooters in the game still get a bulk of their goals around the net.

 

[TB87]

Flyers defenseman with at least 200 TOI at 5v5 tracked via Possession Exit%:

**Data tracked per Corey Sznajder**



The day the Flyers move on from Bobby Two Hits will be a beautiful day