2019-20 Roster Thread XIV: It's all about the sonnet

[VladDrag]

Fitness testing. Coaches get to see who's in what shape. They also have info from previous years. A guy like Chara for instance takes pride in his pull ups every year, setting a tone and a message to the rest of the team how hard and dedicated you have to be to come prepared. It's actually become an iconic ritual in Bos

Rookies. Coaches get an idea who will make it or not

Vets. Compare them to last year
New players. Look for chemistry
PP and PK. They set up their strategies for the year
New coaches. Talk about game plan
Nutrition. Plans, new and old

The coaching staff walks away w/ a ton of valuable info off these 2 or 3 days that they use and strategize over

The younger players and/or newer players get to learn and see NHL competition. Often fights happen at these camps cuz the competition is high

Good NHL vets use this time to show how hard you must compete in practice and drills, setting a tone

Does that still happen at training camps now?

 

[bobbythebrain]

Does that still happen at training camps now?

Yup. Some are caught on tape, some not

Bertuzzo and Sanford just scrapped. Clarke McArther got drilled last year by a teammate and that guy got beat up

 

[Striiker]

Rookies. Coaches get an idea who will make it or not

Right here is exactly the problem, as I’ve explained many times and yet somehow my point is still misinterpreted.

Practices and mixed scrimmages aren’t a good enough way to judge who is and isn’t ready to play in the NHL.

1) way too small of a sample size
2) too chaotic of a format
3) random scrambled teams from various leagues/levels
4) NHL vets aren’t playing at 100%
5) players are in shape but are still shaking off the rust and aren’t playing at their normal levels.

It’s nothing like real NHL games, which means performances in these games mean basically nothing.

We’ve seen tons of poor players have good performances that they wouldn’t be able to sustain in the NHL and we’ve seen plenty of top NHLers have quiet preseasons that don’t represent their level of play when the games matter. It’s similar to how the summer rookie camp isn’t a good thing to judge prospects readiness from.

 

[KrazyKat]

I think Carter Hart will be fine. Will he struggle some games? Absolutely he will. But overall if we can get a good system in place , play well in front of him. We should limit the chances of him getting lit up. He should be fine.

I firmly believe this year we will be a good team. Reminds of the year in 2012 after we traded Richards/Carter. People were surprised how good we ended up being. If we didn’t have Bryz we could have went a lot further.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I think they are hoping to slide his contract

I think they see him on the team. Purposely left a wing spot open. The kid is cutthroat. I’m telling you, they like him & see him as an integral member of the team.

 

[deadhead]

Different players are judged different ways in exhibition games:

1) vets with guaranteed jobs, all they want to do is get their "feel" back for the game and not get injured
2) vets fighting for jobs, if they're not "balls to the wall" competing for a job, cut 'em now because they're no longer hungry
3) prospects fighting for a job, you see how they respond to pressure, can they step up their game and win a job.
4) younger prospects without AHL or Int'l high level experience - see how they handle playing with big boys
5) prospects with no shot at the roster, see how they look against better competition, get a baseline to judge their progress, and coach them not to do something stupid (like take a run at a veteran)

It's not a matter of "gee, he looks great against scrubs, he must be ready," rather more data to put previous play in perspective.

Last year Vorobyev and Twarynski showed they were physically ready to play against NHL players, unfortunately neither player could sustain the intensity they showed in TC, but it taught them what was required to play with the big boys.

When TK made the team, he was an undersized 19 year old but showed enough "true grit" to stick, of course, it helped that the team lacked depth. Frost and Farabee will have to show more, b/c this is a deeper team, but the same issue, are they physically ready?

For guys like Rubtsov, Kase, Laberge, Bunnaman, et al, it's a check against their AHL play, the talent is a notch higher than the AHL (but a notch below regular season) so it's a measuring stick of their progress.

 

[deadhead]

I think they see him on the team. Purposely left a wing spot open. The kid is cutthroat. I’m telling you, they like him & see him as an integral member of the team.

Someday.
Whether that day is today is one of the things they'll determine in TC.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Right here is exactly the problem, as I’ve explained many times and yet somehow my point is still misinterpreted.

Practices and mixed scrimmages aren’t a good enough way to judge who is and isn’t ready to play in the NHL.

1) way too small of a sample size
2) too chaotic of a format
3) random scrambled teams from various leagues/levels
4) NHL vets aren’t playing at 100%
5) players are in shape but are still shaking off the rust and aren’t playing at their normal levels.

It’s nothing like real NHL games, which means performances in these games mean basically nothing.

We’ve seen tons of poor players have good performances that they wouldn’t be able to sustain in the NHL and we’ve seen plenty of top NHLers have quiet preseasons that don’t represent their level of play when the games matter. It’s similar to how the summer rookie camp isn’t a good thing to judge prospects readiness from.

-PTO's. to these guys it means an NHL contract. Many PTO's go on to help their teams
-Not all vets half ass it, the bottom pair/bottom 6 guys have alot to prove
-players who skate all summer get back into the physicality of the game. This has been said many times by players as important. I don't think they are lying?
-The small sample size you mention is still enough for many players to earn/win a spot. Again, by testimony, many players were projected to be sent down regardless but they just made it impossible for the coaches to do so
-you made no reference to what info the coaches get. Again, they come up with season playbooks and strategies from these camps

There's a ton of positives. Like I said, the Chara pull up test is a focal point

Just b/c some players may not need the value of a camp as far as physicality, A) doesn't mean others don't B) many vets use this time to psychologically help their team

 

[deadhead]

Just b/c some players may not need the value of a camp as far as physicality, A) doesn't mean others don't B) many vets use this time to psychologically help their team

I think it's also where young players earn the respect/disrespect of their veteran teammates.

This will be the veterans' first extended look at players like Frost, Farabee, Ratcliffe, etc. and how they carry themselves, whether they work hard and hustle, show proper deference or act entitled. This will not only be their "first impression" but also give the coaches a hint of how they'll fit in the clubhouse.

Since these prospects may well push out a teammate that's liked and respected (say Raffl), the behavior of the prospects can engender acceptance (the kid earned it) or resentment (the kid acts like he's owed a roster spot without paying his dues).

 

[Striiker]

-PTO's. to these guys it means an NHL contract. Many PTO's go on to help their teams
-Not all vets half ass it, the bottom pair/bottom 6 guys have alot to prove
-players who skate all summer get back into the physicality of the game. This has been said many times by players as important. I don't think they are lying?
-The small sample size you mention is still enough for many players to earn/win a spot. Again, by testimony, many players were projected to be sent down regardless but they just made it impossible for the coaches to do so
-you made no reference to what info the coaches get. Again, they come up with season playbooks and strategies from these camps

There's a ton of positives. Like I said, the Chara pull up test is a focal point

Just b/c some players may not need the value of a camp as far as physicality, A) doesn't mean others don't B) many vets use this time to psychologically help their team

You really didn't effectively argue against anything I said... like how you even saying "not all vets half ass it" admits that some do...

As for the bold... for the thousandth time, I didn't say that coaches don't use camp to award spots to players, I said they shouldn't because it's not a good environment to evaluate players, for the reasons I listed in my last post.

@CanadianFlyer88 here's another example for you

 

[deadhead]

TC is a far better environment than say the CHL or WJC-20.
So how else are you going to evaluate Frost or Farabee's readiness to handle physical play?

 

[Magua]

I remember when Sandy earned the disrespect of his veteran teammates by his reckless hugging on goal celebrations in preseason.

 

[deadhead]

Maybe it wasn't disrespect, maybe they were just wary of "me too" issues.

 

[Striiker]

For a while we had to keep track of if Sanheim was the first hugger after a goal.

No wonder Hak hated him so much.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

I think Carter Hart will be fine. Will he struggle some games? Absolutely he will. But overall if we can get a good system in place , play well in front of him. We should limit the chances of him getting lit up. He should be fine.

I firmly believe this year we will be a good team. Reminds of the year in 2012 after we traded Richards/Carter. People were surprised how good we ended up being. If we didn’t have Bryz we could have went a lot further.

At least he comes in with some nhl experience that can out both him and us at ease. If Hexy was still around he would probably come in with two games under his belt and couple of groin injuries courtesy of Hak.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Someday.
Whether that day is today is one of the things they'll determine in TC.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think Farabee is more likely to make the team out of camp than not.

 

[bobbythebrain]

TC is a far better environment than say the CHL or WJC-20.
So how else are you going to evaluate Frost or Farabee's readiness to handle physical play?

On October 5th apparently

 

[TheKingPin]

I think he ends up in the .915 range. He's not like normal sophomores. Mentally he's ahead of guys that are many years older than him.

I think so too. He seems to be a step ahead of all the rest. The article cites Brodeur posting a .902 in his sophomore year, but also lead the team to a cup. I think the sports psych will really help him out for this year.

 

[Curufinwe]

I think so too. He seems to be a step ahead of all the rest. The article cites Brodeur posting a .902 in his sophomore year, but also lead the team to a cup. I think the sports psych will really help him out for this year.

That's so long ago, it's hard to compare SV percentages. NJ only allowed a measly 908 shots in Brodeur's 40 games - 22.7 per game.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=shotsAgainst

 

[bobbythebrain]

You really didn't effectively argue against anything I said... like how you even saying ."not all vets half ass admits that someit" do..

As for the bold... for the thousandth time, I didn't say that coaches don't use camp to award spots to players, I said they shouldn't because it's not a good environment to evaluate players, for the reasons I listed in my last post.

@CanadianFlyer88 here's another example for you

Nope. It admits that some vets take away other positives from camp. So not playing balls deep in a pre-season game has no bearing from the other gains/tools/motivations they get from camp, and how much focus and energy they put into it. I'm sure many vet guys take the coaches speeches and learning sytems very seriously. As I stated w/ an example of Chara. That one thing is a big deal for him. To do it at camp. Another would be Sharp and his philosophy of the benefits of camp. Developing game legs you don't in summer, camaraderie, learning systems, etc

I also clearly stated why in some cases coaches SHOULD, and DO give spots to players based off their performance at camp. Chaisson on a PTO is a good example. I also clearly stated that many players ADMIT that camp gives them a different physical aspect they don't do in summer

Now why you referenced @CanadianFlyer88.

You aren't being misunderstood. What you do often is make is a debateable, and or fairly general statement and then narrow it down to such a specific meaning/concept after the reply. It's not really a discussion, as it is more of a set-up. You look for the most literal of responses and dismiss applied logic

A good example would be your "scoring wins games" schtick. Yes, we all know scoring a single goal or more than your opponent will win you a hockey game. It's not a novel concept. It still doesn't mean that defense is irrelevant, which you often dismissed in those debates

 

[Striiker]

Nope. It admits that some vets take away other positives from camp. So not playing balls deep in a pre-season game has no bearing from the other gains/tools/motivations they get from camp, and how much focus and energy they put into it. I'm sure many vet guys take the coaches speeches and learning sytems very seriously. As I stated w/ an example of Chara. That one thing is a big deal for him. To do it at camp. Another would be Sharp and his philosophy of the benefits of camp. Developing game legs you don't in summer, camaraderie, learning systems, etc

Oh look, yet another example of my post being misread. You guys keep proving me right.

I was very clearly talking about how those things I listed, like vets half-assing it, affects the rookies and why it makes it harder to properly evaluate their play during preseason/camp. That's why I cut down your quote to the sentence you said about rookies, to show what I was specifically responding to and talking about. I don't care what the vets take away from camp or if the vets don't take camp seriously for themselves, since they have little to gain from it, but you can't deny that it waters down the quality of competition, making the rookies quality of play against them even more meaningless.

I also clearly stated why in some cases coaches SHOULD, and DO give spots to players based off their performance at camp. Chaisson on a PTO is a good example.

Can you quote in that post where you stated a valid case for why coaches should give rookies a spot based on camp? I'm not seeing it. If you're talking about "Again, by testimony, many players were projected to be sent down regardless but they just made it impossible for the coaches to do so" then I have no idea what you think that proves.

I also clearly stated that many players ADMIT that camp gives them a different physical aspect they don't do in summer

I'm talking about camp being useless from an evaluating perspective. I know it can be useful for helping players get even more into game shape.

You aren't being misunderstood. What you do often is make is a debateable, and or fairly general statement and then narrow it down to such a specific meaning/concept after the reply. It's not really a discussion, as it is more of a set-up. You look for the most literal of responses and dismiss applied logic

A good example would be your "scoring wins games" schtick. Yes, we all know scoring a single goal or more than your opponent will win you a hockey game. It's not a novel concept. It still doesn't mean that defense is irrelevant, which you often dismissed in those debates

Incorrect again.

The problem is you people like to jump to conclusions without any prompting from the post you're responding to.

As for that specific example, I post that "scoring wins games" when people try to downplay the importance of scoring, which happens surprisingly often. Me saying that has absolutely nothing to do with the importance of defense and it has nothing to do with how I value defensive play. The problem is people doing things like you just did and jumping to conclusions based on nothing. Who said defense is irrelevant? Not me. You pulled it out of thin air, which has proved my point yet again.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Let's try a different approach @Striiker

Frost skating into corners for a game against Morin is easier or harder than skating into corners against even a lackadaisical Weber?

Farabee receiving passes all game from a not competitive Giroux is the same as receiving them from Ratcliffe or Frost?

 

[deadhead]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

 

[Striiker]

Let's try a different approach @Striiker

Frost skating into corners for a game against Morin is easier or harder than skating into corners against even a lackadaisical Weber?

Farabee receiving passes all game from a not competitive Giroux is the same as receiving them from Ratcliffe or Frost?

Sorry, I don’t really understand what you’re asking...

In what context... A real game? For practice? For evaluating their readiness?

 

[bobbythebrain]

Sorry, I don’t really understand what you’re asking...

In what context... A real game? For practice? For evaluating their readiness?

all 3. A pre-season game, during drills and how a coach interprets seeing that?