2019-20 Rocket Thread: Ovechkin, Pastrnak, Matthews, etc ...

[BlueBaron]

56 would be nice. Gets him the Leaf record, and the record for most goals by an American born player. Matthews is awesome, but the most goals by an American in a season is almost as untouchable as Gretzky's 92 (Its 86 by Brett Hull).

Does Hull even count? He's not really American and is only thought of that way because he could not make team Canada so suited up for the US.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Does Hull even count? He's not really American and is only thought of that way because he could not make team Canada so suited up for the US.

He did say Matthews would get the record for American born players if he gets 56 goals.

However I do see what your saying about Hull's 86 goals by an American since he was born in Belleville, Ontario and happened to play for the United States internationally.

 

[93LEAFS]

Does Hull even count? He's not really American and is only thought of that way because he could not make team Canada so suited up for the US.

Its why half the time when Matthews breaks some American goal accomplishment they say first American-Born, instead of American. Also, the main reason for this is Hull was born in August and not during the season. He split his childhood between the two places but primarily grew up in Canada.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Its why half the time when Matthews breaks some American goal accomplishment they say first American-Born, instead of American.

I know that Matthews won't score 86 goals this season and most likely never will in his career. However if him or any other American born player ever did that wouldn't they be the true holder of that record because they were born in the United States and Brett Hull was not.

 

[93LEAFS]

I know that Matthews won't score 86 goals this season and most likely never will in his career. However if him or any other American born player ever did that wouldn't they be the true holder of that record since they were born in the United States, since Brett Hull was not.

The main reason for that is Brett just happened to be a summer baby. He lived in Chicago for most of his first 8 years before Bobby went to the Jets, and his mother is American. I think one or two of his siblings are American born.

 

[Zuluss]

As previously mentioned, this is impossible for many teams, as their entire team doesn't get as much PP time as Ovechkin.

The comparison "whole team vs. Ovechkin" is misleading, it creates the impression Ovechkin gets some gargantuan PP time. Yes, Ovechkin plays about 90% of Caps PP time and Caps are 3rd in the league in total PP time. Well, of course Ovechkin's PP time is comparable to PP time of other teams, just like Caps PP time is.

The difference between Ovechkin's PP time and total PP time for an NHL team is immaterial. Oilers are 27th in the league in total PP time, and their total PP time is whole 12 minutes less than Ovechkin's PP time (254 min vs. 264 min). So if someone on the Oilers could be efficient on PP for full 2 minutes, that guy would have only 5-10% less PP time than Ovechkin.

McDrai get 17-18% less time than Ovechkin, because he gets 89% of the team's PP time and they get 86%. Pastrnak gets 20% less PP time than Ovechkin. It is not like anyone who is a serious contender for Richard gets twice less PP time than Ovechkin.

Fine, take away 20% of 12 PP goals OV has, that is, 2 goals. Would not change much. It is not like McDrai, or MacK, or Eichel suddenly catch up.

No, it does not mean any of these things at all. That is an appeal to authority.

No, it is an appeal to common sense. Players are not gifted PP time, they earn it. No team is going to hurt itself by giving a player more PP time than is good for the team. In general, if a player is used in a certain way, it is because it is the best way for the team to use him.

 

[Sypher04]

Completely bogus argument. Ovie has nearly 4x as many ES goals as PP goals. And has more than 2x as many ES assists over PP assists. It’s simply not Ovie that is the issue, it’s a combination of the caps systems and an actual lack of other scorers on the ice with him. And that’s just this season, since you have been trying to tear him down with recency bias. PP time just isn’t a factor when the caps PP has been as terrible as it has the past 2 years.
Also, if you want to cut on Ovie based on hisPP goals, then you have to downgrade Gretzky too. They are within 1% on the ratio of their career goals to date that are PP vs ES. Sooooo....

huh? Ovechkin has 28 even strength goals and 12 powerplay goals. That's not even close to 4x

 

[Sypher04]

Also, regarding the top 3 goal scorers, but more namely OV and Matthews because they were the ones being talked about, if we are going to nitpick the ways in which these guys score their goals, you should probably start with the disparity in empty netters...

Ovechkin 6 (15% of total)
Matthews 2 (5% of total)
Pastrnak 1 (2.63% of total)

Ovechkin has twice as many empty net goals THIS SEASON than Matthews does in his whole career so far.

In their summary report NHL.com adds these simply to ES goals which I don't think is appropriate at all. They should be their own column.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Also, regarding the top 3 goal scorers, but more namely OV and Matthews because they were the ones being talked about, if we are going to nitpick the ways in which these guys score their goals, you should probably start with the disparity in empty netters...

Ovechkin 6 (15% of total)
Matthews 2 (5% of total)
Pastrnak 1 (2.63% of total)

Ovechkin has twice as many empty net goals THIS SEASON than Matthews does in his whole career so far.

In their summary report NHL.com adds these simply to ES goals which I don't think is appropriate at all. They should be their own column.

Lol why does this matter? A goal is a goal. Everyone has an equal opportunity, maybe Matthews should learn how to shoot into an empty net?

 

[Sypher04]

Lol why does this matter? A goal is a goal. Everyone has an equal opportunity, maybe Matthews should learn how to shoot into an empty net?

I said IF we're nitpicking, which very clearly from the last number of pages of the thread people are.
An empty net goal is much easier to score, plain and simple. I'm not making it out to be some big issue. In fact, I'm not calling it an issue at all.

 

[cupface52]

PP time is always a factor.

Boston leads the league in pp goals, more of their power plays finish sooner, their players end up with less pp time. Pretty basic concept if you ask me. Boston and toronto have a 25%+ powerplay, Washington is barely at 20%. Without looking at stats, I'm betting ovechkin has a larger percentage of his teams pp goals than either pastrnak or matthews.

 

[shtorm2005]

Ovechkin has more PP time this season than the entirety of 12 teams.

There is one thing you're missing. Ovy almost always stays on PP to play with 2nd PP unit. But if 1st unit didn't score, it means opponent defends well, and Ovy has much less chance to score on 2nd unit, without saying 2nd unit has much less talent.
I mean 20 min combined play with 1st+2nd unit doesn't equal to 20min of play with 1st PP unit. Therefore, you can't take his raw PP time and compare with other players that play mostly on the 1st PP unit.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Lol why does this matter? A goal is a goal. Everyone has an equal opportunity, maybe Matthews should learn how to shoot into an empty net?

From the bench? Babcock was his coach almost his entire NHL career.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The comparison "whole team vs. Ovechkin" is misleading, it creates the impression Ovechkin gets some gargantuan PP time.

He does get some gargantuan PP time. He gets 19% more than 2nd place.

The difference between Ovechkin's PP time and total PP time for an NHL team is immaterial.

It's not. It shows that over 1/3 of the league couldn't have their players match Ovechkin's PP time, even if their player played every second possible. Including Ovechkin's main competitor for the rocket.

McDrai get 17-18% less time than Ovechkin
Pastrnak gets 20% less PP time than Ovechkin.

Ovechkin gets 23% more PP time than McDavid.
Ovechkin gets 25% more PP time than Draisaitl.
Ovechkin gets 29% more PP time than Pastrnak.
Ovechkin gets 63% more PP time than Matthews.

I don't think you're understanding how significant this time difference is.

It is not like anyone who is a serious contender for Richard gets twice less PP time than Ovechkin.

63% more PP time is a massive difference.

Players are not gifted PP time, they earn it.

This is an appeal to authority, claiming that every coach is 100% correct, and every ref calls the game 100% to the rulebook. We know for a fact that games are managed and this is not true. We know for a fact that coaches are not perfect.

 

[TheDoldrums]

No, it is an appeal to common sense. Players are not gifted PP time, they earn it. No team is going to hurt itself by giving a player more PP time than is good for the team. In general, if a player is used in a certain way, it is because it is the best way for the team to use him.

This isn't true at all. We know refs manage the game. Teams that take more penalties, "earn" more penalties. Washington takes a lot more penalties than the Leafs so they're going to get more PP's whether they earn them or not.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Boston leads the league in pp goals

Yes, because they have an amazing PP goal scorer.

more of their power plays finish sooner, their players end up with less pp time.

If they're scoring faster, I'm not sure how that's an argument against their goal scoring ability.

Ovy almost always stays on PP to play with 2nd PP unit.

1. This is a result of not scoring.
2. Most rocket contenders do this to some extent; sometimes without getting all fresh players. Matthews has had to play the majority of most PPs to even get to 2 minutes per game behind Ovechkin.
3. Washington's 2nd unit isn't all that bad, especially with Ovechkin on it. They also get to go up against secondary PK units.
4. Nobody seemed to have a problem comparing Matthews on the 2nd unit all of the time to others on the 1st unit all the time for 2 years; not just for the scraps at the end of PPs.

 

[Merrrlin]

Since Dec 7th, Marner and Matthews are 1st and 3rd in points.

I think Ovi or Matthews will hit 60 and Pasta will hit 50.

 

[hockeeyyy]

Ovechkin has just 2 ES goals less than Matthews. Their total TOI is the same, so you have to be amazed how much more efficient Ovechkin is at ES if what you are saying about his PP time is true.

Pastrnak has 5 more PP goals than Ovechkin. Good for Pastrnak, but it seems that if you want to make a point that scoring at PP is easier, your example of a player with a lot of "easy" goals should be Pastrnak, not Ovechkin.

Ovechkin's numbers are fairly impressive this season at evens.

Ovechkin: 1.72 & 2.72 goals per 60
Matthews: 1.69 & 3.48 goals per 60

Second set are their power play results. I would say that Matthews producing on the power play has really made a difference production wise, but I think he's got a lot more room to give at evens, while Ovechkin has more room to give with the man advantage.

Edit: I see people have already mentioned the above in a different way, but I'd like to add that it's pretty obvious that Matthews is the even strength standard for goal scoring.

 

[Sam Spade]

Since Dec 7th, Marner and Matthews are 1st and 3rd in points.

I think Ovi or Matthews will hit 60 and Pasta will hit 50.

You are VERY optimistic.

 

[alg363636]

And were all tied up again

 

[CDJ]

40 goals/ 40 assists already for Pastrnak


Sheesh

 

[moropanov]

Pastrnak should be viewed as best winger in game atm ofc he has great line that benefits him, but still..

 

[CDJ]

Hat trick Pasta lol

he’s absurd

 

[danpantz]

Pasta takes back the lead

 

[Lukin1978]

Pasta burning down a village tonight