2019/20 Pro-Tank Thread - Part II (Mod note in Post #154)

[I am toxic]

yeah this is a serious forum we don't want any miscitations here the Benning estate would be displeased

This. I hesitated in asking for annotations, footnotes and a bibliography, but I am shocked to find on the internet that people are posting arguments and statements without proper support.

 

[Spectrefire]

Miller is really good, and clearly worth more than what we paid. That’s not even arguable. It’s the philosophy of trading a likely lottery pick during the rebuilding phase that I question. Teams need great players to win a Cup. We have two: Petey and Hughes. Are those two enough to lead us to a Cup, or would one more be best?

We added one more with that 1st: JT Miller. Dude's one of the best wingers in the NHL.

 

[Fatass]

We added one more with that 1st: JT Miller. Dude's one of the best wingers in the NHL.

Do you remember the Hawks adding Hossa? He was key to their continued cup success.
Do you see Miller as our Hossa?

 

[PuckFather]

Do you remember the Hawks adding Hossa? He was key to their continued cup success.
Do you see Miller as our Hossa?

Oranges and apples.

 

[4Twenty]

Oranges and apples.

In what way?

 

[rypper]

I still see a team that should lose many games win them, just seems really lucky. Everything is going right AND the west sucks this year...

I keep waiting for the bottom to fall out. They've won plenty of games this season they had no business winning. 12 shots total into the 3rd period with Markstrom keeping them in it.

Can it keep up into the playoffs? The Canucks fan pesimism in me says no.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Fantastic player indeed. I wanted one more top 10 pick to round out our elite core to give us better odds at contending, but watching competitive hockey is a welcomed change for this regime.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Fantastic player indeed. I wanted one more top 10 pick to round out our elite core to give us better odds at contending, but watching competitive hockey is a welcomed change for this regime.

Well I believe one of Pod, hoglander or Madden can be an impact top 6 forward. I think we have enough offensive stars. D could use a bit of work. My biggest concern is 3C. Gaudette is a winger imo

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Well I believe one of Pod, hoglander or Madden can be an impact top 6 forward. I think we have enough offensive stars. D could use a bit of work. My biggest concern is 3C. Gaudette is a winger imo

That's fair, but we need top 4 defencemen. Tanev might walk this season (I hope not, but it looks like Marky will be the one who is more likely to be re-signed based on Benning's comments recently). We'll likely still be a playoff team without Tanev, but then it's also likely that Edler walks/retires next year (and his play will inevitably drop from old age if he sticks around). I'd like to think that any of Woo, Rathbone, Rafferty, Juolevi, etc. will develop into NHL regulars and potential top 4 dmen, but defence prospects are so hard to predict (especially later round picks). We really need a legit top 4 prospect/young roster player, and unfortunately it's one of the hardest positions to acquire.

 

[DonnyNucker]

That's fair, but we need top 4 defencemen. Tanev might walk this season (I hope not, but it looks like Marky will be the one who is more likely to be re-signed based on Benning's comments recently). We'll likely still be a playoff team without Tanev, but then it's also likely that Edler walks/retires next year (and his play will inevitably drop from old age if he sticks around). I'd like to think that any of Woo, Rathbone, Rafferty, Juolevi, etc. will develop into NHL regulars and potential top 4 dmen, but defence prospects are so hard to predict (especially later round picks). We really need a legit top 4 prospect/young roster player, and unfortunately it's one of the hardest positions to acquire.

For sure, I actually think Rafferty could be a second pairing dman. Kid was a runt until he was 16. Not surprisingly he is a late bloomer. The rest of the prospects who the f*** knows. Damn lucky Hughes has turned into a star or else our D would be looking pretty ugly

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Teams need great players to win a Cup. We have two: Petey and Hughes. Are those two enough to lead us to a Cup, or would one more be best?

Miller trade is starting to look better and better. I’m the biggest Benning critic and the trade was an unnecessary gamble, but I can admit when a deal is good. A young 2-way all situations 70 point 1st line winger on a good contract cannot be had for a late 1st rounder (looking like that’s what the pick is going to be). A player like that would cost a 1st + player + prospect. As far as having great players, the Leafs have 4 superstars and haven’t made it out of the 1st round (and are in cap hell), the Blues arguably have zero superstars, but have 10-12 very good players and just won the Cup. The time for the Canucks to make the playoffs and cause some havoc is now.

 

[Fatass]

Miller trade is starting to look better and better. I’m the biggest Benning critic and the trade was an unnecessary gamble, but I can admit when a deal is good. A young 2-way all situations 70 point 1st line winger on a good contract cannot be had for a late 1st rounder (looking like that’s what the pick is going to be). A player like that would cost a 1st + player + prospect. As far as having great players, the Leafs have 4 superstars and haven’t made it out of the 1st round (and are in cap hell), the Blues arguably have zero superstars, but have 10-12 very good players and just won the Cup. The time for the Canucks to take make the playoffs and cause some havoc is now.

What you’re saying is Miller is our Hossa. If he proves to be that good for several more years, then great. However, one more elite guy (top five pick from the 2020 draft) coming in on his ELC in two years would (IMO) be better for sustainability of winning.

 

[racerjoe]

I kind of think we are this years 2013-14 Avalanche. I think we make the playoffs in a totally unsustainable season and way. You might as well go for it cause this really probably never happens again.

 

[BoHorvat 53]

We are going to be in cap hell when Pettersson and Hughes are up for extensions, so it’s whatever. The tank may be delayed, but it is inevitable. We have 2 years before we gotta blow it up which is so f***ing pathetic. Assuming Pettersson makes 11 and Hughes makes 8, we’ll have slightly over 60 million locked into Pettersson, Boeser, Eriksson, Horvat, Ferland, Roussell, Miller, Beagle, Pod, Hughes and Myers. Assuming lotto line stays together and Pod is able to show he’s capable as a top-6 winger, we need another top-6 winger, a 3rd line centre, an entire forth line, a 2nd and 3rd d-pairing, and a starting goalie as well as a backup. Assuming we sign Marky for 5m and the cap raises to 87.5 mil, we are now left with 22.3 to sign all of the above except now we got a starter. We’ve seen what Jimbo does in crunch time when it comes to signing FA’s, so we can only pray he f***ing learns you don’t win in this league paying 4th liners 3m because of f***ing intangibles.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I would have supported a tank if we were likely to be in a position to pick up another top player. But that shipped sailed in my opinion. This always looked like a playoff bubble team to me given the additional depth over last year. I don’t think missing the playoffs to get a mid level pick really moves the dial at all. So might as well just enjoy playoff hockey imo.

 

[MikeK]

I would have supported a tank if we were likely to be in a position to pick up another top player. But that shipped sailed in my opinion. This always looked like a playoff bubble team to me given the additional depth over last year. I don’t think missing the playoffs to get a mid level pick really moves the dial at all. So might as well just enjoy playoff hockey imo.

Agreed. That was my attitude coming into the season. Also, constantly being in a negative headspace about the team I love had wore me down. I still have the same complaints about management but as long as current ownership are involved there isn't any change made that will improve that area. Besides, this team is actually a lot better than I think some people are willing to admit and certainly more entertaining than we've seen in years now. Life is too short.

 

[mossey3535]

Sort of. There was a point in the season last year where it was looking like you might be able to get in with an 86 point team, which I thought was the lowest bar we were likely to see.

However, you may recall in our discussion last November, I completely nailed our 81 point finish. As I viewed us being in no man's land, I thought trying to make it while the bar was so low and unlikely to be that low again might be the right play.

Anyway, the playoff bar ended up at 90 points which was entirely typical, and will probably be there again and we are virtually certain to clear it. My pessimism regarding next season has more to do with the roster construction.

Exactly. I mean this is pretty fun and all but I don't know how you can look at our unsustainable play and add it to our cap crunch and think that's a situation that is easy for us to overcome. It will take some high level managing to just extricate ourselves, let alone build a championship roster.

 

[Fatass]

Agreed. That was my attitude coming into the season. Also, constantly being in a negative headspace about the team I love had wore me down. I still have the same complaints about management but as long as current ownership are involved there isn't any change made that will improve that area. Besides, this team is actually a lot better than I think some people are willing to admit and certainly more entertaining than we've seen in years now. Life is too short.

Is our team set up for prolonged winning, or only to be mediocre? One more year with a high pick (top 10) IMO was key to keeping costs in line with continued winning. We are now in a situation where we are going to lose important support players, because they cost too much, and not have a completed pipeline (or a pipeline that’s mot yet ready) to fill those support roles on cheap ELC contracts.

 

[Hyzer]

Sad that we pissed away the future for the present.

Hope we win the cup this year because the years after this are going to be painful even for GM's who constantly make astute moves. So much overpaid garbage on this roster and now we might have to burn assets just to get rid of free assets we got.

 

[MikeK]

Is our team set up for prolonged winning, or only to be mediocre? One more year with a high pick (top 10) IMO was key to keeping costs in line with continued winning. We are now in a situation where we are going to lose important support players, because they cost too much, and not have a completed pipeline (or a pipeline that’s mot yet ready) to fill those support roles on cheap ELC contracts.

That's the circle of life in the NHL though. You're never going to be able to keep everyone you want. Players get old, players get raises. Plus, in my opinion, you need more than just your draft picks to pan out in order to build a winner. It takes management bringing in additions that compliment those drafted players. The chances of that top ten pick you're talking about being able to immediately step in and actually make a difference is slim to none. Most picks take years to finally arrive and be contributing members of a team.

 

[Fatass]

That's the circle of life in the NHL though. You're never going to be able to keep everyone you want. Players get old, players get raises. Plus, in my opinion, you need more than just your draft picks to pan out in order to build a winner. It takes management bringing in additions that compliment those drafted players. The chances of that top ten pick you're talking about being able to immediately step in and actually make a difference is slim to none. Most picks take years to finally arrive and be contributing members of a team.

Agreed. But the picks come into the team on their ELC’s. The higher the pick the more likely to have an effective support player on that ELC. That saves cap room for the elite core, and more important support players.

 

[VC]

I kind of think we are this years 2013-14 Avalanche. I think we make the playoffs in a totally unsustainable season and way. You might as well go for it cause this really probably never happens again.

I don't disagree with this. I does seem similar to that Avalanche team and also that Flames team. Everything has aligned for the Canucks to make the playoffs this season. Healthier D, uptick in players that needed to and poor years from unexpected teams.

May as well go for it. Not as in spending future assets, don't have the cap space anyway, but as in not being a seller. Would be nice to add a defensemen, no cap to make it work, may just have to settle for the return on Leivo and Ferland.

 

[DS7]

Do you really team they care about the team getting better? It's just the hate for Benning. They hatred is so strong that in the same thread, they were wishing injuries on our star players so we drop in the standings and have Benning canned.

It's a belief that Benning is what he is, he's the guy that extended Sbisa, let hamhuis walk, shelled out six million to Loui Eriksson, traded a draft's worth of picks on dud projects, offered McCann for Gudbranson. Buying when he should have been rebuilding in 2014-16 and that he's incapable of changing his stripes.

He's recovered a bit in my books since 2017, I still don't fully trust him. He should be thankful that Petey and Hughes were there outside the top 3, when he did nothing to put ourselves in a position to draft them higher.

I fully expect him to be fired some time along the line.

But the team is bigger than Benning, I'd rather not have our rookies waste their primes losing. For better or worse, this is our core now. We need to do what's best for these guys.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

A couple of reminders - this is the pro tank thread. If you aren’t in favour of tanking, post in a different thread.

For the pro tank group - this thread is not a safe haven for you to insult people who aren’t in favour of tanking. Flaming is still flaming. So knock it off.

 

[Ainec]

Look at the teams we're above in the standings and the teams we're below

told you guys we can't tank without an injury to Pettersson or Hughes, no point


I was OG Team Tank but writing was on the wall this season