2019-20 Coaching Discussion: The Jon Cooper Watch

[LTIR Trickery]

I'm honestly agog we still have Cooper defenders.

He only won you 62 games, and gave you a handful of memorable playoff runs.

 

[CupsOverCash]

He only won you 62 games, and gave you a handful of memorable playoff runs.

I mean it wasnt all the players and I think Cooper deserves credit for when the team has done well too. However I have to agree with some people on here who see the same mistakes cost us important games and it never getting fixed. I for one think we can win a cup with Cooper but I also think his voice could be getting old and it really may be time to get a new guy in there if it makes us better.

 

[The Macho King]

He only won you 62 games, and gave you a handful of memorable playoff runs.

One is memorable in particular, if only for its brevity.

 

[DFC]

He only won you 62 games, and gave you a handful of memorable playoff runs.

A lot of those playoff runs ended with us being visibly out-coached.

I think the Pens just had us, regardless of coaching. That was just a great team, and they were a lot better than us. The other ones though...

 

[DFC]

Let's see if Scotty Bowman wants to go for another Cup.

I think he still attends every TB home game. He would likely be tempted to show Stan who's still the hockey genius in the family.

 

[DFC]

Benching two players of that calibre is basically unprecedented, let's not act like that is realistic in any way. Feel free to show me any situation where that has actually worked positively for the players, team and coach.

If you want to fault the coach for completely unforced and careless mistakes out of his control, then so be it. I get debating structure, lineup decisions, special teams etc., but I find Cooper takes blame for things that are absolutely not his doing.

How about our young guys who have turned into some of the premier 2 way forwards in the game? Like I said before, players like Point and Cirelli caught on just fine (not to mention the Killorns and Palats) and manage to play very responsibly and within our structure all the time. In spite of Cooper, I guess?

I'm not even a Cooper fan, but I see him taking heat when often times, we are victimized by careless or soft plays. You can want him to fix that til the cows come home, but the responsibility ultimately lies on the guys making those unforced mistakes imo.

Edit: Can't spell

Great coaches have made soft teams play hard throughout history. It's part of their job.

 

[These Are The Days]

A lot of those playoff runs ended with us being visibly out-coached.

I think the Pens just had us, regardless of coaching. That was just a great team, and they were a lot better than us. The other ones though...

We win that Pens series in 6 with a healthy Bishop. Nothing will convince me otherwise. The injuries to Stralman and Stamkos had us ready to play over our heads every night. Bishop would've broken down that Pens attack just fine for us and stood on his head too

 

[Master P]

We win that Pens series in 6 with a healthy Bishop. Nothing will convince me otherwise. The injuries to Stralman and Stamkos had us ready to play over our heads every night. Bishop would've broken down that Pens attack just fine for us and stood on his head too

His ability to act as a 3rd defensmen is huge

 

[Fabiobest]

We win that Pens series in 6 with a healthy Bishop. Nothing will convince me otherwise. The injuries to Stralman and Stamkos had us ready to play over our heads every night. Bishop would've broken down that Pens attack just fine for us and stood on his head too

We usually forgot one thing: we've lived, every single fuc* year, with TONS injuries.
IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE, IT'S THE REALITY.
In 2014 playoffs, we've had a couple of goalie that probably are not good enough to play in Italy. And Stammer was out too.
In 2015 we reached the Finals. True. But against Chicago, we'd an injured Bish (and that Vasy was not current Vasy) and we'd Johnny with a problem too
In 2016 we'd both the numer 1 goalie, and the Captain out. Without considering Strals. Do you want to blame Cooper? You can do it and I respect your opinion, but it's IMPOSSIBLE to win with tons of injuries (in particular with the big names out).
In 2017 we miss the playoffs. And, about this season, you all, probably, are right. Because the wild card spot was not an impossible goal to reach.
In 2018, with the team healthy, we lost only in that game 7.
In 2019, against CBJ, we'd Point, Heddy and (I've read) also Vasy not at the top.
So...imho, we could blame Coop for the 2017 and 2018 season. But please, not for the others...

 

[The Macho King]

I mean - are we going to act like missing Stamkos for a playoff series hurts the team's performance?

 

[Bozo Nicholson]

I mean - are we going to act like missing Stamkos for a playoff series hurts the team's performance?

Lol....damn.

 

[bov]

Great coaches have made soft teams play hard throughout history. It's part of their job.

I guess it's that easy, he should just make them play harder then! Why on earth doesn't he do that?

Not seeing much substance here... Hell, even if he HAS lost the room, it wouldn't absolve certain players from making careless plays left and right, or not competing both ways. To chalk that up as some sort of coaching motivation issue (or lack thereof) is giving a free pass to the players, even though we're talking about fundamental, costly mistakes. The players know the deal, and several of them (such as McDonagh) have alluded to the problem being a matter of them simply failing to carry out the necessary adjustments.

And lastly, it's not just about Cooper's shortcomings but whether or not there's a better option out there. You'd probably be looking at Richards as interim then Groulx a year or two after that. Unless things really go south, I don't see that making a whole lot of difference for this season. If our best players are firing on all cylinders and we're still being outplayed, I'll worry a bit. Until then, I'd like to give it a few weeks to see some chemistry form.

 

[Todd1a]

He only won you 62 games, and gave you a handful of memorable playoff runs.

Ya and Coach Q won 3 cups for the hawks and they fired him. plus in 2015 cooper got by a Detroit team over the hill and about done in a game 7 2-1 with babcock out coaching him with less talent.

 

[Todd1a]

Ya and Coach Q won 3 cups for the hawks and they fired him

We usually forgot one thing: we've lived, every single fuc* year, with TONS injuries.
IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE, IT'S THE REALITY.
In 2014 playoffs, we've had a couple of goalie that probably are not good enough to play in Italy. And Stammer was out too.
In 2015 we reached the Finals. True. But against Chicago, we'd an injured Bish (and that Vasy was not current Vasy) and we'd Johnny with a problem too
In 2016 we'd both the numer 1 goalie, and the Captain out. Without considering Strals. Do you want to blame Cooper? You can do it and I respect your opinion, but it's IMPOSSIBLE to win with tons of injuries (in particular with the big names out).
In 2017 we miss the playoffs. And, about this season, you all, probably, are right. Because the wild card spot was not an impossible goal to reach.
In 2018, with the team healthy, we lost only in that game 7.
In 2019, against CBJ, we'd Point, Heddy and (I've read) also Vasy not at the top.
So...imho, we could blame Coop for the 2017 and 2018 season. But please, not for the others...

Every NHL team has injuries that's not an excuse in 2016 when the penguins beat us they didn't have MAF there top goalie at the time all the sudden Matt Murray stepped up and filled in. Now 2017 I will excuse it because are whole team was injured! I think that's the most injured I have ever seen our lightning team have and I have been watching them from day 1 since 1992.

 

[Todd1a]

I mean - are we going to act like missing Stamkos for a playoff series hurts the team's performance?

lol good one

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Benching two players of that calibre is basically unprecedented, let's not act like that is realistic in any way. Feel free to show me any situation where that has actually worked positively for the players, team and coach.

If you want to fault the coach for completely unforced and careless mistakes out of his control, then so be it. I get debating structure, lineup decisions, special teams etc., but I find Cooper takes blame for things that are absolutely not his doing.

How about our young guys who have turned into some of the premier 2 way forwards in the game? Like I said before, players like Point and Cirelli caught on just fine (not to mention the Killorns and Palats) and manage to play very responsibly and within our structure all the time. In spite of Cooper, I guess?

I'm not even a Cooper fan, but I see him taking heat when often times, we are victimized by careless or soft plays. You can want him to fix that til the cows come home, but the responsibility ultimately lies on the guys making those unforced mistakes imo.

Edit: Can't spell

the structure is the problem.... ive overlooked coopers faults for years one guy who was behind him so to speak and still give him outs on our injury situation... but we are the fastest highest scoring team in the league and cooper wants us to play like la did in 2008 range that is stupid as hell.....yes we need some structure but to just get guys busting azz to shoot the puck and overwhelm weaker teams by simply outscoring them should be something we always fall back on as needed.... this is not in coopers idea frame for how to play hockey he is simply not the right guy for this job.... just my two cents to watch the guys he hasnt played also and have nothing to show in first rounders for years says another thing about this man.... I feel we simply needed to pin back our ears at times like pittsburgh did and outscore teams which we could.... momentum goes a long way.... these guys MEN do not know how to play the game that cooper wants them to play but damn they got mad skills playing it a way that they can... a great coach would work around this and we would have multiple cups


p.s. the injuries??? palat was obviously injured tyjo had a broken wrist were they playing? these are the decisions i cant accept last year i give him an out both goalies were done wasnt like we could call someone from syracuse and be ok lol..... the rest? i question him hell yess and slater and others choosing others ...... we all have to be accountable a coach is accountable on winning especially with what has been built here.... only question at this point is when will they be held accountable.... i dont want to go another 5 years of underperforming imho

 

[Fabiobest]

Every NHL team has injuries that's not an excuse in 2016 when the penguins beat us they didn't have MAF there top goalie at the time all the sudden Matt Murray stepped up and filled in. Now 2017 I will excuse it because are whole team was injured! I think that's the most injured I have ever seen our lightning team have and I have been watching them from day 1 since 1992.

Let me say that, in the only game the Pens have played with MAF...we've won it...So, maybe for them, it was better to play with Murray (sorry, but I don't like MAF at all)
For sure, during this years, we've seen many many injuries...too many.

 

[ronsatter]

It's not the structure, it's not the Xs and Os, it's not anything quantifiable. It's the seventh year of the marriage and neither side is particularly turned on by the other anymore. It's just the way it is. Cooper is a good coach in his own right and the Lightning are obviously a an elitely talented team, but the magic is gone. It's like the saying on the bathroom wall, "no matter how good she looks, there is some guy out there who is sick of her sh*t". I think that is how the players view Cooper at this point, not so much sick of his sh*t, but indifferent to him and tuned out.

They don't call it "the seven year itch" for nothing. Time for a change.

 

[VinikToWinIt]

I think a large part of that Pens series was the reliance of our defense to have Bishop as their third defenseman. They forgot how to play without an puck-playing goalie and struggled getting the puck out of our zone, especially with the rebounds Vasy was giving up.

That being said, that Pens team was a well-oiled machine. I'm not sure we stop them either way, but I think play would have been a bit more even with Bishop in net.

 

[CupsOverCash]

It's not the structure, it's not the Xs and Os, it's not anything quantifiable. It's the seventh year of the marriage and neither side is particularly turned on by the other anymore. It's just the way it is. Cooper is a good coach in his own right and the Lightning are obviously a an elitely talented team, but the magic is gone. It's like the saying on the bathroom wall, "no matter how good she looks, there is some guy out there who is sick of her sh*t". I think that is how the players view Cooper at this point, not so much sick of his sh*t, but indifferent to him and tuned out.

They don't call it "the seven year itch" for nothing. Time for a change.

I understand the comparison and agree to an extent. However this team has accomplished a lot with their HC. They have been close to winning it all and close to getting back into the finals twice. Thats a lot to accomplish together. The voice could be getting old but I still feel like thats not a good excuse to get your shit together when things matter most. For the coach or the team. They have an opportunity here and I think they need to set whatever that BS is aside and work together because I dont see Cooper being fired unless things really go south. Set the egos aside and get this done.

 

[ronsatter]

I understand the comparison and agree to an extent. However this team has accomplished a lot with their HC. They have been close to winning it all and close to getting back into the finals twice. Thats a lot to accomplish together. The voice could be getting old but I still feel like thats not a good excuse to get your **** together when things matter most. For the coach or the team. They have an opportunity here and I think they need to set whatever that BS is aside and work together because I dont see Cooper being fired unless things really go south. Set the egos aside and get this done.

I see your point, but I don't think the indifference is something you can "will" away and I don't think it has anything to do with egos. Everything has a shelf-life and Coops has expired IMO, which is not to say that the shelf-life for every coach is the same, obviously. But in Coops case, I think it's time. Btw, I will think it's time even if they go on a 10 game winning streak from here. They're talented enough that they should go on 10 game winning streaks almost regardless of the coach and Cooper has benefited from that for most of his time here.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I see your point, but I don't think the indifference is something you can "will" away and I don't think it has anything to do with egos. Everything has a shelf-life and Coops has expired IMO, which is not to say that the shelf-life for every coach is the same, obviously. But in Coops case, I think it's time. Btw, I will think it's time even if they go on a 10 game winning streak from here. They're talented enough that they should go on 10 game winning streaks almost regardless of the coach and Cooper has benefited from that for most of his time here.

I would be all for changing the HC right now but I just dont see them doing it right now. Not unless the team takes a nosedive in the standings for a while. I dont want to see the team tank for a new coach as that could bite them in the ass by being so out of the playoff picture that they cant get back in. Id rather see them work this shit out and win it this year. If we take that nosedive then get him the hell out of here before it ruins the season but we have to get there first. I think the team will get by on their talent, but if they want to win the cup this year, I think they need to set whatever issues they have with Coop aside and work with him to get this team ready for the playoffs.

 

[DFC]

I would be all for changing the HC right now but I just dont see them doing it right now. Not unless the team takes a nosedive in the standings for a while. I dont want to see the team tank for a new coach as that could bite them in the ass by being so out of the playoff picture that they cant get back in. Id rather see them work this **** out and win it this year. If we take that nosedive then get him the hell out of here before it ruins the season but we have to get there first. I think the team will get by on their talent, but if they want to win the cup this year, I think they need to set whatever issues they have with Coop aside and work with him to get this team ready for the playoffs.

I think tonight's game could be a big one regarding Cooper's fate. Obviously, he's not getting fired tonight or anything. What I mean is, if he gets fired in mid-November, I think we might look back to this game as the one where the ball really started rolling toward his termination.

We got embarrassed in Carolina. 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, EMBARRASSED. If the team doesn't respond after that, it's not gonna respond to anything. And that's pretty damning for a coach.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think tonight's game could be a big one regarding Cooper's fate. Obviously, he's not getting fired tonight or anything. What I mean is, if he gets fired in mid-November, I think we might look back to this game as the one where the ball really started rolling toward his termination.

We got embarrassed in Carolina. 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, EMBARRASSED. If the team doesn't respond after that, it's not gonna respond to anything. And that's pretty damning for a coach.

I could see that. Tonight is a big game in that regard and it could be interesting to see how the players play after last game. If it's more of the same that is a huge cry out by the team to do something soon.

 

[Todd1a]

point back tonight rushed to SAve cooper ?