World Cup: 2018 WC Qualifiers Part II

Discussion in 'Soccer' started by Bures Elbow, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    I don't know. With a switch to 3 at the back and an emphasis on defence I could see England pulling a Netherlands 2014 and pushing far enough. Kane is in the form of his life, and Sterling just keeps getting better as well. They have the players to play a deadly counter-attacking 5-3-2 if they want to.

    Pickford
    Walker - Gomez - ????? - Stones - Bertrand
    Chamberlain - Henderson - Loftus-Cheek
    Kane - Sterling

    (Maguire, Keane, Cahill, whatever)​


    Keep in mind this is next summer so some of these guys are only going to get better. It wouldn't surprise me to see Chambo continue to improve as a counter-attacker under Klopp. Though I'd imagine they'll try and fit Dele into the line-up (maybe Henderson and RLC behind him with Kane and Sterling up front). They could easily play a very deadly 3-4-3 on the counter as well though that'd be even harder to fit Dele in (honestly I think the NT is better off not using him as a starter but eh...)
     
  2. East Coast Bias

    East Coast Bias Registered User

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    Anytime you can jiggle the lineup and setup in a way to get Joe Gomez and Ox in there at the cost of Dele, you gotta do it.
     
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  3. koyvoo

    koyvoo For Badgeholders Only

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    By these metrics, England are not and never were a favourite (despite so many knowledgeable pundits always having them up there).

    Aside from tournaments held at home (1966lol and 1990) England have never, ever beaten a rated side in a knockout game. Never, ever, nor even once. But when the predictions are made, they’ll be placed ahead of teams that routinely do better in tournaments than they do.
     
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  4. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    Agreed.
     
  5. Pouchkine

    Pouchkine Registered User

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    England are like the Maple Leafs...
     
  6. S E P H

    S E P H @SEPH_WHL

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    I will respectfully disagree here. Don't get me wrong, a lot of African teams have Russia's problems times a thousandfold by not showing up. However, that still doesn't make it any less shocking such as Ghana and Cote d'Ivoire. Ghana is an African powerhouse developing solid players year after year, yes they're no Nigeria when it comes to talent, but were always close to them. Cote d'Ivoire might be suffering from a new generation which are not as good as the last, but they're still a solid team and much better than the likes of at least Morocco and Tunisia. I argue these teams getting in were more fluke than anything, but with the World Cup expanding, we will probably see a combination of both make it to the future World Cups.

    Senegal is one country I won't debate because they've been developing some really good players lately so it makes full sense why they got in. BiH is another solid country, they don't have the most amazing stars or the best depth, but they're way better than the likes of Iceland and Sweden for one. It's probably the luck of the draw I guess because neither Algeria, Turkey, or Greece made it through either, while Poland had a good showing in their group (which I admit wasn't as hard as others).
     
  7. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

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    If I am picking the WC draw myself. Of course none of these will happen. I do realize I picked some rematches, they are nearly impossible to avoid.

    Group A: Russia, Colombia, Denmark, South Korea (a good football group)
    Group B: Brazil, England, Egypt, Serbia
    Group C: Portugal, Croatia, Iran, Nigeria
    Group D: Argentina, Mexico, Sweden, Morocco
    Group E: France, Spain, Senegal, Panama (I want to see Senegal's counter attack put to full use)
    Group F: Poland, Uruguay, Iceland, Saudi Arabia
    Group G: Belgium, Peru, Tunisia, Australia (one of these has to get the shaft)
    Group H: Germany, Switzerland, Costa Rica, Japan
     
  8. ViD

    ViD #CBJNeedHugs

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    Hopefully Russia can avoid Spain and England from pot 2
     
  9. Savant

    Savant Registered User

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    I mean I don’t think it would be AOC or Gomez taking Dele’s spot in the lineup.
     
  10. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    I totally forgot about Benkovic. Man if those young CBs can break into the senior team before your older players in midfield and attack start to slow down, your roster really would be top class everywhere except for LB...which wouldn't even matter if you played a 3-5-2 like I proposed.

    I'm rooting for Germany, Mexico, Senegal & Japan

    Look at the ghanian roster and tell me with a straight face that they are still a powerhouse. You can't because they aren't. They had a strong period, but it's over now and they are back to being just another african nation like they were before. They haven't produced any top talents since Essien or KPB; and a team like Senegal has blown past them and will be the african powerhouse for the next decade.

    You also seem to really be underestimating the talent on that Moroccan squad. They are much more talented than Ghana right now and out played the Ivorians decisively on the final matchday of african qualifying.

    And that midfield would get run over by a top team even if they didn't keep Alli out of the lineup. While that backline isn't strong enough for them to bunker & counter against a good team.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  11. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    Nonsense...Dele would wreck face as a CB or as a wide midfielder in midfield 3.
    I think you're underestimating those players, and team unity. Player for player that team is better than the team the Netherlands had in 2014 (and by a decent margin). The Netherlands were missing their best midfielder (Strootman). They were literally starting players like de Guzman, Janmaat, Vlaar, old man de Jong, Martins Indi and van Persie (on the decline). If the Netherlands could get by with a midfield of De Jong, de Guzman and Sneijder I'm sure that England could manage with those three.

    They don't have a Robben, but their attacking options are much better beyond that top one, their midfield and wingbacks are stronger, their defence is stronger, and their keeper is stronger.
     
  12. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    Robben was the reason that Netherlands team could succeed despite their midfield getting caved in though. That team isn't as threatening on the full break even with Alli in.

    Netherlands 2014 was a good example of the sort of football that was played the past week in these home-and-away qualifying matches where very very few goals were scored because players aren't fully familiar with each other and they're afraid to concede as a result since they aren't confident they themselves can score. I think that strategy can take you far in the World Cup, but you won't win it all if your team is really inferior to the peak teams.

    England could go on a run to the semis definitely. I can't see them winning though.
     
  13. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    France is better than any non-german team at the 2014 WC. Brazil is much better than they were in 2014, ditto Spain & Germany, and Argentina shouldn't be much worse. The top teams in this tourney are just a lot stronger than the top teams in 2014, and the Dutch only made it as far as they did because of Robben magic and parking the bus.

    England could try parking the bus and hope that Kane, Sterling & Alli can provide enough magic to take them through a few rounds in the knockouts (with a favorable draw), but that still leaves them short of being contenders...and there's other non-favorites who I think are more likely to make that kind of run, like Croatia / Senegal / Poland / Portugal / Colombia
     
  14. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    On the full break the Netherlands literally only had Robben though. Sterling/Kane/Alli/Chamberlain/Rashford/Vardy/Sturridge offer a much more varied threat with a similar directness and pace (not to mention they're stronger all around the pitch). They simply have more weapons on the break than the Netherlands did if they're used properly. I'm not saying they will win, but they have enough talent to go far playing that way. Even Portugal just won a Euro against a much more talented France playing defensive football with a worse team on paper than England.

    If we're talking about favourites though I really like Brazil as the favourite to win this one.

    Spain, Germany, Belgium, France and Argentina together in the next tier (if Argentina can pull it together or Messi bails them out).
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  15. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    None of those options have the class Robben did at that tourney. Without that individual brilliance you don't win that penalty late that sent you through, which would've ended your run before even reaching the semis. And England doesn't have the midfielders to take advantage of the multiple attacking options.

    As for Portugal, they got very lucky that injuries, suspensions & Jogi cost us against France...nevermind that they had much stronger and more established defensive cohesion than England do atm.

    On the topic of Brazil, I buy them as the most threatening SA team, but I don't see them on the level of Germany or France. And would have a tough time arguing that they are above Spain.
     
  16. Creed Bratton

    Creed Bratton Registered User

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    I'm starting to warm up to the idea of a 3-5-2. Dele would be just fine in a deeper role. He has done great when Tottenham have been counter-attacking lately. I don't think any of those midfielders in the lineup you mentioned should be starters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  17. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    It's not like England have a glut of midfielders to choose from. I don't think Dele would suit a deeper role especially in a defensive system. He's lazy, and very attack oriented. Maybe he could be the 2nd striker and use Sterling as the other wingback to Walker, but I think Sterling would be the better option in a counter-attacking outfit.

    Maybe you could do this instead to accomodate Dele:

    Gomez - Keane/Maguire - Stones
    Walker - Dier - Hendo - Rose
    Sterling
    Dele - Kane​
     
  18. Creed Bratton

    Creed Bratton Registered User

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    I'm telling you, Dele is a fine central midfielder. It was the exact position he played when Tottenham beat Liverpool 4-1 just a few weeks ago.

    As I said, I think the 3-5-2 is fine. In a midfield three, I'd pick Dier over Henderson any day. Henderson has pretty much always been woeful for England. In front of him I'd probably put Dele and Lallana, but Winks deserves a very good shout too.

    I think some kind of 3-4-3 could work out also.
     
  19. maclean

    maclean Registered User

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    Ghana kinda came out of nowhere in 2006. Sure they're still among the better African sides, but basically you need some difference-makers and they don't have those anymore. It's not "shocking". It's part of the cycle.
    Bosnia I don't even know what to tell you. I like them too, but "shocking"?
    Hungary did really well at the last Euro, when was the last time they were doing something like that, the 50s? Do I expect them to suddenly be great? No. Iceland is doing great right now. Will I be shocked if they suddenly disappear off the map? No.
     
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  20. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    For what it's worth Hungary does have some interesting U22s coming through. Including one 17 year old who's already getting rave reviews in Salzburg with Red Bull B. I'm genuinely curious what comes of them in the 2020s, just as I am the Romanians, Czechs & Slovaks.
     
  21. maclean

    maclean Registered User

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    Hungary is certainly on something of an upswing. The Czechs have been doing respectably in the youth categories, but until some of their players start really breaking through in clubs with names I will remain sceptical for my own mental health. I'm glad Jarolim is bringing in the youth now. He has some time to get those players incorporated, my main hope is that they can start to play with a bit more passion, say the way the Slovaks or other named sides do. Too often the players look too disinterested.
     
  22. East Coast Bias

    East Coast Bias Registered User

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    No but changing the formation to get them in results in Dele out.

    Theyre not part of any best lineup anyway. And England’s national team isn’t training with Klopp for the next 9 months.
     
  23. Savant

    Savant Registered User

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    Not sure what Klopp has to do with anything but okay
     
  24. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

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    Yeah I was just looking over Hungary's youth the other day and they could have a nifty side if those kids continue to develop well. They've could have the big promising striker (Balogh), the dangerous creatives (Sallai & Nagy), the exciting deeper midfielders (Szoboszlai, Kleisz & the other Nagy). Not the rebirth of might magyars, but a team that could consistently put in some fun showings at the Euros with a WC appearance or two.

    And I'm a lot more excited by the czechs than you, though I understand your impulse. With Darida, Jankto & Schick already showing it a high level, I think you can start believing in the czech talent again.
     
  25. NHL Dude 120

    NHL Dude 120 Registered User

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