World Cup: 2018 WC Qualifiers Part II

Discussion in 'Soccer' started by Bures Elbow, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2010
    Messages:
    30,069
    Likes Received:
    1,103
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Well I mean it's relative right. They're among the top footballing nations for sure. Are they among the elite? No, definitely not, but a lot of the belief is media driven and based on their domestic league (which comprises largely of top foreign players) popularity. They're definitely not fodder -- they consistently qualify among the top of the European teams. They've won a World Cup (which is more than most nations can say as only 8 different teams have won it, France has also only won it once, and it's not like it was an easy team to beat). Even if you look at the teams that have knocked them out at various stages in international competition:

    1968 - Yugoslavia (runners up)
    1970 - West Germany (3rd place)
    1986 - Argentina (eventual winners)
    1990 - West Germany (eventual winners, lost in PKs)
    1996 - Germany (eventual winners, lost in PKs)
    2002 - Brazil (eventual winners, lost 2-1)
    2004 - Portugal (runners up, lost in PKs controversial game)
    2006 - Potugal (lost in PKs again)
    2012 - Italy (runners up)

    So I mean it's not like England are bombing out to just anybody most of the time, and they're competitive games. I think the pressure of the media definitely does a lot to the players/managers. But they've had enough success and generally walk through qualifying to be considered a top international team. So I guess it depends on your definition of a top international team but they're far from fodder, and I don't really think there's 2 tiers above them.
     
  2. Creed Bratton

    Creed Bratton Registered User

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    7,452
    Likes Received:
    916
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Occupation:
    Biznus
    If Lallana is better in a possession based system and isn't a great passer from deep, why wouldn't we switch to a 3-4-3 and play possession? An attacking midfielder in a 3-4-3 doesn't play that wide if you ask me. It also suits Sterling and possibly Dele much better if you ask me.

    I don't really see how Ox would be Lallana's main substitute as a CM. Complete different players if you ask me. I'd see Winks as Lallana's main sub and either AOC or RLC as Dele's main sub in the lineup you proposed.
     
  3. koyvoo

    koyvoo For Badgeholders Only

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    8,440
    Likes Received:
    7,305
    Trophy Points:
    111
    There is easily two tiers above them. One is the elite. Germany, France, Spain and maybe Brazil right now. Then there’s a tier with Portugal and teams of the like. They are also not in that one or they would’ve beaten someone of significance at least once. I will give this to them. They can be tough to put down. Yes, it’s taken penalties very often. But, against those teams that have put them out on penalties or in s tight game, it always did look like England was just hanging on. Not on the verge of winning any of those games.
     
  4. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    45,304
    Likes Received:
    2,463
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    France
    I agree with most of this, but said the same thing about Spain for years. Until they proved they could win.
    I don't expect England to do any better than QF this upcoming WC. But they have nice youth and who says they won't get a golden generation like Spain and prove history wrong?
    Not now, but in 8 years. It's possible. I'd rather bank on Germany, France or Brazil for the upcoming 8 years as well because they produce the most talent, but who knows.
     
    Denzil likes this.
  5. Duchene2MacKinnon

    Duchene2MacKinnon Dybalascibar

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,980
    Likes Received:
    2,006
    Trophy Points:
    186
    I don't know much about their youth teams other than people raving about them however, I don't envision them winning anything even with a golden generation unless, they change the way they play at the senior NT level.

    Having a great squad doesn't make up for backward tactics and a terrible coaches.
     
  6. Savant

    Savant Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2013
    Messages:
    15,136
    Likes Received:
    1,727
    Trophy Points:
    156
    It all depends on the Draw. And who can stay out of Penalty Kicks.
     
  7. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    45,304
    Likes Received:
    2,463
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    France
    France reached a WC final with Domenech as coach (and lost on PK).
    NT coaches are castly overrated. Player selection is the most important. They don't have enough time to preach major tactics.
     
  8. sabremike

    sabremike #TeamMagicGiraffe

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Messages:
    11,464
    Likes Received:
    12,467
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brewster, NY
    When people talk about England always being a failure I can't help but think of the book Soccernomics. The authors actually make a very good case that given the nation's population and geographical size England actually punch above their weight in international competition. Was actually an interesting take on the old narative.
     
  9. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    44,378
    Likes Received:
    2,529
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    LA
    Awards:
    This stuff is all irrelevant. Did any of the players now play in those games? No. Was it the same coach? Also no. History does not predict future results. I don't think by any stretch that they'll win because it would be foolish to make that prediction, but the past is totally irrelevant. Chile at the tournaments they won is a pretty good example of that, so is Spain as has been mentioned.

    National team football is usually about the players at your disposal. Almost every national team coach will pick strange players instead of the best choices. England does have good players, so do a lot of the teams that will be in Russia. They do not have any players who are actually bad in their lineup, besides possibly Joe Hart. You can't write any of the teams with good players off and say they have no chances to advance deep.

    France, Brazil, Germany, Spain, Argentina, Portugal, Belgium, Uruguay, England, Switzerland, Colombia, Croatia, and Poland could make the SF and it would not surprise me very much. I tried to order those in a way of what I expect to happen. All of those teams have really good players at their disposal, and a coach might find the right combination of them to put in their lineup. The World Cup is sometimes a tournament where even stranger things happen, like when Sweden, Bulgaria, Uruguay, and Turkey made the SF. So you don't really know what will happen.
     
  10. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    45,304
    Likes Received:
    2,463
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    France
    Doesn't make sense to me. 53M people, rich country, great stadiums, huge importance on football.
    If they punch over their weight, what does that make of France, Germany, Italy, Spain or Holland?
     
  11. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2010
    Messages:
    30,069
    Likes Received:
    1,103
    Trophy Points:
    139
    NT coaching is underrated if anything. Getting a team to play together and buy into the system usually gets them to a point where the sum is greater than its parts (just look at the Netherlands and Portugal recently). Team selection is important in the sense that you need to pick the right players to play how you want to play internationally (or adapt your tactics to the players) but coaching is still very important.
     
  12. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    45,304
    Likes Received:
    2,463
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    France
    Can't see how it's important. Players don't have enough time to buy into a detailed tactic. As I said, it's about motivation and player selections.

    Don't get your Holland/Portugal part either. One is a failure regardless of the coach for the last 5 years, the other has been awul and lucked into a win because of new rules and some bounces.
     
  13. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    44,378
    Likes Received:
    2,529
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    LA
    Awards:
    The book's arguments are that English teams play too many fixtures without a break, English fans put too much pressure on players, and that in more recent times when they had quality they would have key players get hurt before the tournament.

    The only argument that really makes sense to me is the first one, but every country has players playing in England, so I don't know. I think the reason England hasn't won or advanced in tournaments is because until very recently they played a long ball, low percentage style of football that is reliant on lucky bounces to score goals. In the Iceland game last year both teams were playing the same style and I believe that kind of football gives every team equal chances to win.
     
  14. sabremike

    sabremike #TeamMagicGiraffe

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Messages:
    11,464
    Likes Received:
    12,467
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brewster, NY
    Take it from me: a large population, being the richest country on Earth, great stadiums and a (relatively recent) importance on football doesn't get you that far these days :-(
     
  15. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    44,378
    Likes Received:
    2,529
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    LA
    Awards:
    It's the kind of football they played and not any of the things argued in the book. They are playing different football now because they don't have players as tall or as powerful in the air as they used to, so we'll see where that takes them.
     
  16. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    45,304
    Likes Received:
    2,463
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    France
    Pressure's pretty high in other countries too. Italy, France, Germany...
    Fixtures is stupid, since they play the same number of games anyway.
     
  17. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2010
    Messages:
    30,069
    Likes Received:
    1,103
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Holland won 3rd at the most recent WC with a team most people thought would be out in the group stages (including trouncing the defending champions, and being PKs and a heroic defensive performance from Mascherano away from reaching the final).

    Coaching is absolutely important, regardless of the amount of time they have (even though there's plenty of time as most coaches for the WC get plenty of time leading up to the WC and other tournaments if they're not failing). Motivation is also a large part of the coaching staff's responsibility.
     
  18. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    45,304
    Likes Received:
    2,463
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    France
    Importance is certainly arguable. Football is no more than 5th sport in the US. If you're a good athlete, you choose other sports before football.
    TV is more interested in NFL or NBA or MLB as well.

    You can't compare to the undisputed #1 sport in most european countries.
     
  19. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    45,304
    Likes Received:
    2,463
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    France
    Yes, as I said, motivation.
    But players coach themselves in those competitions. Coach gives the general tactic, the scheme and stresses on a few things. But they don't have time to go in a thorough tactical work.
     
  20. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    44,378
    Likes Received:
    2,529
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    LA
    Awards:
    The only time a coach matters is if they call the same players up every single time and do the same tactics every time. Chile being a good example although towards the end of their qualifying run it seemed like the players were tired of it (and now they aren't there).
     
  21. Duchene2MacKinnon

    Duchene2MacKinnon Dybalascibar

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,980
    Likes Received:
    2,006
    Trophy Points:
    186
    If you don't think coaches in the NT level matter look at Argentina's cup runs with the likes of Batista/Maradona as opposed to Tata and Sabella.

    Coaches at the NT matter, and can derail a cup run or worse. England need to be revolutionized, mentality wise and tactics as well.
     
  22. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    45,304
    Likes Received:
    2,463
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    France
    Again, you don't separate tactical and motivationnal/player selection here.
    Coach don't matter much tactically.

    Again, Domenech. Enough said.
     
  23. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    44,378
    Likes Received:
    2,529
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    LA
    Awards:
    There was nothing wrong that Diego did at the WC except play against a team that destroyed everyone until playing the best NT in history. Argentina cruised through the group with ease and beat Mexico pretty easily as well. That Spain team is one of the only teams ever that would have beaten that German team the way they were playing.
     
  24. Duchene2MacKinnon

    Duchene2MacKinnon Dybalascibar

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,980
    Likes Received:
    2,006
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Again, Maradona. Enough said.

    Domenech managed to **** up a gimme against Portugal. Tactics matter. See Greece with their Euro trophy.
     
  25. Duchene2MacKinnon

    Duchene2MacKinnon Dybalascibar

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,980
    Likes Received:
    2,006
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Look at the qualifiers and look at the games in context. Messi literally carried them their and once, they played a half decent team Argentina got exposed. Otamendi was left dizzy and I remember him playing Gutierrez out of position with hilarious results.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"