What leads you to believe he has less influence then you first thought?
And what do you consider to be this year's big mistakes? (and who's fault were they?)
Post-Game Talk: 2018 NHL Draft
- Thread starter Chairman Maouth
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What leads you to believe he has less influence then you first thought?
And what do you consider to be this year's big mistakes? (and who's fault were they?)
I lay the blame Hutton's fall squarely at the feet of coach Green
There was no "conditioning" issue
That's what they say when there is either another problem they don't want to talk about or they are just f*cking with the player,
There's no such thing as an NHL player who isn't properly conditioned, I doubt you'd even find one in Junior anymore
Unfortunately, in this case, it was the latter, Hutton needs to get away from Green as do a few other players named Virtanen
I don't feel like going back and searching for quotes, but when Brackett was talking about the picks he was saying things that closely mimicked Benning, Weisbrod, and Delorme in past draft videos and interviews (character, hard working, old-school, etc). The talk about Tkachuk and Hayton being ranked very high definitely seems like something that was heavily influenced by the dinosaurs.
As for the mistakes
- ranking Tkachuk and Hayton so highly is a big red flag for me
- passing on Dobson and Bouchard, big right handed defensemen with very high potential that had impressive seasons
- taking Woo with an early 2nd, lack of offensive ability and serious injury concerns
- taking Madden with an early 3rd, I felt like it was a big reach and we passed on some much better players to get him
- Manukyan was a waste of a draft pick, 20 years old and microscopic (5'7", 140lbs) while having unimpressive stats this year. Oh, and the Russian factor.
- not a fan of drafting a junior A league goalie, kind of feels like a waste of a pick but I don't know nearly enough about goalies in those leagues
As for whose fault it was for each thing, I cannot say. There are a lot of scouts covering different regions, and them liking/disliking certain players impacts these decisions. It does kind of seem like they are trying to over-correct some of their mistakes from the past, completely ignoring size and prioritizing skating above everything else.
xtra
Registered User
25 year old Hutton is a wasted player with no potential.
25 year old Markus granlund still has potential.
Logic escapes this board sometimes
25 year old Markus granlund still has potential.
Logic escapes this board sometimes
Pastor Of Muppetz
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Before you go full lynch mob on Green..Here's a quote from Hutton.
Vancouver Canucks✔@Canucks
Hutton said he isn’t proud of his season. “Coach was right to question my game and conditioning. I’m glad he did, it shows he cares and knows I can be better. And I will be better. I’ve already talked to guys back home, I’m starting a running group.”
11:40 AM - Apr 9, 2018
Pastor Of Muppetz
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Its only been 4 days ago that we had the draft...?...we have no f***ing idea how most of these 18 year olds are going to turn out...You must be listening to the blowhards on here (not you) that consider themselves closet GM's...and have already come to the foregone conclusion that we messed up the draft.
Wait and see, am I right?
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with what they did. The people running and working for NHL teams are not perfect, they make mistakes, even the good ones.
Most publications are declaring the Canucks one of the winners of the draft...but HF board geniuses now better. It’s funny how people say we didn’t go BPA because our picks were higher than consolidated rankings. Do people on here not know that every team has their own list which they choose from? Quite hilarious
xtra
Registered User
So wait, your saying respect the publications that say we were a winner but also saying that we can’t trust other publications rankings prior to the draft.
If the kids are just 18 and as per the post you quoted we can’t consider them failures how can you consider them the winners?
I don’t consider the Canucks winners at all. It’s too early to tell imo. I just find it amusing when people say things like woo definitely wasn’t BPA and he was a reach. BPA is subjective and differs between teams and analysts.
Pastor Of Muppetz
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Wait and see is 100% right...
The national media reaction about the Canucks picks last year was pretty average,until the players "knocked it out of the park" during the following season...The Canucks draft was not really mentioned in any of these sites..Locally,it was a thumbs up.
Winners and losers of the 2017 NHL draft | The Hockey News
2017 NHL Draft Results: Biggest Winners and Losers of Round 1
This one is especially funny because he claims we blew the Peterson pick
NHL Draft grades 2017: Winners and losers
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Okay? Go and look at the reactions to the Virtanen and Juolevi picks as well.
Some of us are big boys and girls that can make judgements for ourselves without needing to read garbage produced by most of the traditional hockey media now-a-days.
Almost everyone overrates drafts and prospects for 2-3 years because they're top players in junior leagues playing against kids.
Draft grades in any sport is one of my most hated things.
Get a group of “fallers”: OMG! They won the draft!
Leave the draft with 7 guys you evaluated highly: OMG! They reached! Losers!
The article above that seems the Canucks losers for not taking Cody Glass was written by Adrian Dater. How much hockey has Dater seen Pettersson play prior to the draft. Probably next to none. The fact that he gets to publish draft grades absolutely boggles the mind. Teams that are given horrible ratings may have left the draft with 7 guys they had ranked within the top 100 and their scouts are jumping for joy, yet because of consensus rankings, people are calling for them to be fired.
Last year with Pettersson... similarities to this year with Hayton... teams evaluated a prospect extremely high and were given an opportunity to select that player, so they did. Yet they’re deemed “losers” and it blows my mind. If the Coyotes for example traded back to let’s say the Isles 2nd pick hoping to get Hayton, but left the draft with Dobson after a team picked Hayton just before them, they’d be declared winners. Despite the fact that Coyotes management would be banging their head against the wall because of the mistake they just made.
There are a VERY SMALL amount of people on this planet who aren’t Professional Scouts that actually can give validated opinions of Player A vs Player B. There’s quite a few of those people on these boards and I always value your opinions. The rest? Pure garbage. Including my own. We read some scouting reports and profiles, watch a 3 minute highlight video and all of a sudden we’re a pro scout.
Just my 2 cents.
Get a group of “fallers”: OMG! They won the draft!
Leave the draft with 7 guys you evaluated highly: OMG! They reached! Losers!
The article above that seems the Canucks losers for not taking Cody Glass was written by Adrian Dater. How much hockey has Dater seen Pettersson play prior to the draft. Probably next to none. The fact that he gets to publish draft grades absolutely boggles the mind. Teams that are given horrible ratings may have left the draft with 7 guys they had ranked within the top 100 and their scouts are jumping for joy, yet because of consensus rankings, people are calling for them to be fired.
Last year with Pettersson... similarities to this year with Hayton... teams evaluated a prospect extremely high and were given an opportunity to select that player, so they did. Yet they’re deemed “losers” and it blows my mind. If the Coyotes for example traded back to let’s say the Isles 2nd pick hoping to get Hayton, but left the draft with Dobson after a team picked Hayton just before them, they’d be declared winners. Despite the fact that Coyotes management would be banging their head against the wall because of the mistake they just made.
There are a VERY SMALL amount of people on this planet who aren’t Professional Scouts that actually can give validated opinions of Player A vs Player B. There’s quite a few of those people on these boards and I always value your opinions. The rest? Pure garbage. Including my own. We read some scouting reports and profiles, watch a 3 minute highlight video and all of a sudden we’re a pro scout.
Just my 2 cents.
Melvin
21/12/05
I actually agree with this.
I think it's weird the amount of conviction that people have over these opinions. It is fun to talk about and to make your picks and such but the methods of evolution for declaring a team a "winner" are beyond silly.
I think Montreal is a winner right now because they had like 7 picks in the top 100. It doesn't matter who they selected. In five years we can look at it reasonably.
biturbo19
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I think it depends a bit on whether we're declaring teams "winners" and "losers" based on how closely they adhered to whatever public ranking (usually Bobby Mac's), or whether it's based on how many prospects we really like the potential of based on whatever our own rankings are, they managed to scoop up in the draft.
Ultimately, it's stupid to entrench yourself with unwavering conviction either way. There's a proven high degree of randomness and unpredictability to the draft, and big unspoken influence in the post-draft development process. Plus, in the end...we're all going to have a lot more "misses" than "hits" if you get far enough into the draft. Especially when we're just one hobbyist individual, competing against entire scouting departments that literally devote their life to this stuff. It's their job.
Doesn't mean we can't sit back and look enviously at some other team that nabbed a bunch of our favourite prospects who we think might amount to something. Maybe even discuss that, and why we like those particular prospects, or prefer others. That's half the fun of it all really.
biturbo19
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This is the one that really burns me. It's just so hard to look at a guy like Dobson, or even Bouchard...and think they're not going to be significant contributors. They've got everything going for them, and they fit a huge need for this team for the future to get defencemen here who can play big minutes and chip in offensively while they do it. Hughes has some very special qualities to him, but there's just so much risk too, and i think questions about matchup upside that don't apply to Dobson's potential.
I can understand the thinking though, at least. If Hughes "booms"...he could be a gamebreaker. Just still not sure Dobson and Bouchard don't have that potential too...with a safer feeling floor. Though Bouchard to the Oilers could see his floor fall out from under him, the way they develop defencemen, and the way they're going to feel pressure to get their RH shot PPQB in there ASAP.
I honestly don't even know if this is a reach. This draft felt kinda crappy to me, and at this point...i don't mind if they're taking a flyer on a guy who has a ton of room to physically grow into a more effective player. If the flashes and traits are there otherwise, i don't mind gambling on the guy who might be held back a bit production-wise by a lack of physical maturity. A lot of later-round prospects, you're counting on some sort of atypical development trajectory taking them upward toward the NHL. Guys that are already on a "solid" development trajectory that just doesn't project as good enough...they're risky. It's not about picking the better player now, it's about picking the better player 5 years from now.
This one i don't get at all. I mean, i get not having any familiarity with the particular goaltender - i certainly have none. But the league a goaltender like that comes out of, seems pretty irrelevant in the long run. The guy they picked is in a "lesser league" because he's college-bound. And the NCAA route is proving a pretty lucrative one these days, for goaltenders especially.
Connor Hellebuyck for instance...drafted out of the NAHL, a lower tier junior league. Colton Point, arguably last year's top NCAA goaltender and one of the top goaltending prospects outside pro hockey...drafted out of the CCHL for heaven's sake. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to condemn a goaltending prospect based on the league they come out of. Especially not if they're headed to a quality goaltending development league like the NCAA. And Maine isn't a scrub program.
Realistically, most 7th rounders are wasted picks. But i wouldn't immediately jump on a goaltender from a lower tier league drafted late, as an immediate throwaway pick, just because the league isn't very strong.
Good post even though I don't really agree. I think you also end up contradicting yourself. For example, guys like Tkachuk and Hayton aren't considered great skaters.
I don't think they are trying to correct mistakes from the past at all. To me, I think they have been relatively consistent in terms of the type of players and skillsets they are looking for. I think that Brackett is now and has been firmly in charge of the draft. I think there is quite a bit of agreement between Brackett and Canucks management in terms of the type of players they are looking for.
I also wouldn't say they are completely ignoring size. They might be ignoring size when it comes to the later picks, but they don't seem to be ignoring size with their early picks. At the end of the day, they are projecting guys. Heck, Pettersson measured almost 6'2" 165lbs at the combine. He will likely always have a slight frame, but he won't be considered "undersized."
Ya. Dobson was my choice too because I consider him a safer pick. I think there is no doubt that Hughes has the higher upside as a "gamebreaker" though. He outproduced Makar being in the same league and being younger. He also acquitted himself really well at the World Hockey Championships.
Hughes is a different type of Dman from Dobson and Bouchard.
Cupless44
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Woo was clearly marked for the first round for much of the season before injuries derailed his season. Picking him at 37 is not some massive reach some here are making it out to be.
The Canucks should not be swinging for the fences on Hughes when two right shot defensemen with size and massive #1 potential are sitting there in Bouchard and Hughes. It seems so irresponsible with so few picks at the draft and so little in terms of defense prospects in the organization. Ditto for the Woo pick. Why take a risk on a player with injuries like that when players such as Bode Wilde are still on board? When have the Canucks ever had success drafting injured players?
Of course, much of this could be mitigated if the Canucks had a competent management team that could commit to a realistic rebuild model and actually be able to get value trading veterans for draft picks. What team doesn't get extra draft picks when they are the worst team in the league three years in a row and miss the playoffs? There should have been a deal for a 1st rounder well before the draft. They should have had Hughes and Dobson or Bouchard.
Its difficult to think of how poorly set up this franchise will be for next years draft. Clearly the team is on the downturn with the Sedins gone yet they continue attempting to shortcut a proper rebuild. Its absolutely moronic. There is no reason to keep pressing for the playoffs. The team has all the leeway in the world with the state of the team and the draft being at home. Their goal should be to stockpile assets. They have no chance of actually making the playoffs when their goal is to be competitive so just accept reality. They should be all in Jack Hughes next year.
Of course, much of this could be mitigated if the Canucks had a competent management team that could commit to a realistic rebuild model and actually be able to get value trading veterans for draft picks. What team doesn't get extra draft picks when they are the worst team in the league three years in a row and miss the playoffs? There should have been a deal for a 1st rounder well before the draft. They should have had Hughes and Dobson or Bouchard.
Its difficult to think of how poorly set up this franchise will be for next years draft. Clearly the team is on the downturn with the Sedins gone yet they continue attempting to shortcut a proper rebuild. Its absolutely moronic. There is no reason to keep pressing for the playoffs. The team has all the leeway in the world with the state of the team and the draft being at home. Their goal should be to stockpile assets. They have no chance of actually making the playoffs when their goal is to be competitive so just accept reality. They should be all in Jack Hughes next year.
Yup every year during the draft grades I have the same thought, and make a point of going back and evaluating the drafts 3 and 4 years ago instead and grading those. This "Jake Virtanen" kid should really bust out this year. I'm desperate for Brisebois to make a big step forward.
krutovsdonut
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bingo.
it is weird hfboard logic that the appeal to authority of journalist listicles outweighs the appeal to authority of 31 scouting groups that had more data and expended way more time and energy preparing their lists. a more logical conclusion when a player "falls" a round or two is that the journalists got it wrong, not the 31 teams that passed on the guy.
VasilyHoglander
Registered User
Virtanen literally showed up to camp 2 years ago over weight and out of shape. Green saved his career down in Utice, Jake said himself that Green helped him tremendously.
Many people thought Glass/Vilardi/Mittelstadt were better picks than Pettersson last year because they were much bigger/stronger while having a safer floor, and still having a high ceiling. At the end of the day, the most skilled player was Hughes as well as Pettersson last year.
Dobson lacks the offensive ability that Bouchard and Hughes have, he's just doesn't have that poise, vision or passing ability to thread needles. He'll get you out of your zone to the red line or O-zone but he can't stick around and make a super skilled play like Hughes with his skating or hands. Hughes can get you out of your zone, into the offensive zone and create a great scoring chance.
Bouchard lacks the skating big time and therefore lacks the ability to be a dangerous offensive threat by himself. Yeah he's good in the offensive zone but he can't make plays like Hughes.
Defensively, Bouchard and Dobson are probably better, but Hughes has the poise of a top-pairing Dman when he has the puck on his stick, Dobson and Bouchard don't have that ability.
Dobson lacks the offensive ability that Bouchard and Hughes have, he's just doesn't have that poise, vision or passing ability to thread needles. He'll get you out of your zone to the red line or O-zone but he can't stick around and make a super skilled play like Hughes with his skating or hands. Hughes can get you out of your zone, into the offensive zone and create a great scoring chance.
Bouchard lacks the skating big time and therefore lacks the ability to be a dangerous offensive threat by himself. Yeah he's good in the offensive zone but he can't make plays like Hughes.
Defensively, Bouchard and Dobson are probably better, but Hughes has the poise of a top-pairing Dman when he has the puck on his stick, Dobson and Bouchard don't have that ability.
Eh, while I agree that those are each players’ strengths and weaknesses, I think you are underselling the non Canucks in order to create a gap between them and Hughes. I’m happy with the Hughes pick but at the moment there isn’t much to choose between those 3. Dobson is projects to be a LOT better than Hughes defensively just as Hughes projects to be a lot better offensively. Overall it’s probably a saw off with Hughes fitting our needs a bit better.
And the Pettersson analogy doesn’t work in this case. There was/is a genuine concern about his ability to be effective at 169 lbs in the NHL. The issue with Pettersson was always would he put on the weight/strength needed. With Hughes there is no expectation that he will put on extra height, merely how well his strengths will offset his weaknesses. Very different situations.
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