OT: 2018 Football Thread: Camp is (almost) here!!!!!

[Fvital92]

No he wasn't. Eli Manning has been, outside of a couple years, a very pedestrian quarterback. What he HAS had that others have not has been his ridiculous level of toughness, his lack of injuries, and his ability to raise his play above mediocrity at crucial times.

He's unfortunately lost the final piece of that puzzle, though, as he's been one of the least clutch QBs in the league the last 5 years or so.

Yes he was, people are talking like he was an Andy Dalton type of QB. He is at the same leve than Rivers and Big Ben for the majority of his career but somehow Eli sucks and Roethlisberger is god.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Yes he was, people are talking like he was an Andy Dalton type of QB. He is at the same leve than Rivers and Big Ben for the majority of his career but somehow Eli sucks and Roethlisberger is god.

Eli Manning Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Ben Roethlisberger Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Philip Rivers Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

No.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Ben Roethlisberger is a first ballot HOFer.

If Rivers can win a title, he's a first ballot HOFer.

Eli Manning will be a HOFer, I think, but he's not at all a sure-fire first ballot guy.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

He had a backfield that was one of the best of all time. They went undefeated when he was injured most of the season. In one of the Super Bowls, I believe he attempted less than 10 passes. Stabler and Bradshaw were so much better than Griese, and yet Bradshaw was considered ‘dumb’ and it took Stabler years to be elected to the HoF. And I HATED the Raiders in the 70’s, even though my uncle was on the coaching staff.

Oh yeah, Griese was the “qb” of those Fins teams with the no name defense

My dad is a Raiders fan (death) and actually grew up watching Stabler.

Unfortunately for him, Carr ain’t Stabler.

 

[Fvital92]

Eli Manning Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Ben Roethlisberger Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Philip Rivers Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

No.

Those numbers mean nothing without context. Roethlisberger played in a team with a great defense his whole career except 2-3 years), and a good running game, he makes the playoffs every year cuz he play in the shitty AFC, that in his whole career had 3-4 decent teams (Steelers, Colts, Patriots and Ravens).
Eli Manning had one dominant team in 2008, that lost when Burress shot his leg. Bad defenses were the norm, and since 2012 a bad o line. The interceptions are in large part because of Gilbride's system ( Martellus Bennet said so in an interview for Adam and Lefkoe).
Rivers was awful when he had a bad team and good early in his career when he had and underachiever team, he has been good now the Chargers finally are getting better again.

Their career is pretty much equal, good teams = good QB play. And I would rather have Eli and his 2 superbowls mvp than Roethlisberger, who won one of those superbowls despite of his play, and 0 rings Rivers.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Those numbers mean nothing without context. Roethlisberger played in a team with a great defense his whole career except 2-3 years), and a good running game, he makes the playoffs every year cuz he play in the ****ty AFC, that in his whole career had 3-4 decent teams (Steelers, Colts, Patriots and Ravens).
Eli Manning had one dominant team in 2008, that lost when Burress shot his leg. Bad defenses were the norm, and since 2012 a bad o line. The interceptions are in large part because of Gilbride's system ( Martellus Bennet said so in an interview for Adam and Lefkoe).
Rivers was awful when he had a bad team and good early in his career when he had and underachiever team, he has been good now the Chargers finally are getting better again.

Their career is pretty much equal, good teams = good QB play. And I would rather have Eli and his 2 superbowls mvp than Roethlisberger, who won one of those superbowls despite of his play, and 0 rings Rivers.

Can we stop making Eli into something he wasn’t?

There is not an single individual stat or metric, career wise, that would place Eli above either of those guys. What places Eli above maybe Rivers in terms of career success are the intangibles he has.

Rivers and Ben are both better QBs now, have both been better for the last 3-4 years, and both have better career numbers.

This deification of Eli Manning is so cringeworthy. I love the guy, he’s one of my favorite players ever, but he’s much more Chris Drury than Mark Messier.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Also, I like how you say the guy is at “the same level” and then discount the career stats. This isn’t some SSS comparison.

Hell, the completion percentage of Rivers and Ben is a full 5% higher than Eli’s. Over the course of a 14-year career, that’s absolutely incredible.

Hell, Manning hasn’t posted a SINGLE SEASON (!!!) with a completion percentage above either Rivers’s or Ben’s career average!

 

[JimmyG89]

Eli Manning Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Ryan Fitzpatrick Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

This is my absolute favorite QB comparison of all time.

They differ in essentially 1 stat: .2 TD:INT ratio difference. Everything else, stats-wise, is the same.

Joe Flacco Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

This one gets me too, and Flacco has a better TD:INT ratio. Eli Manning is Joe Flacco, with an extra superbowl ring. I'm sure Flacco would get put through the grinder here, but Eli is considered to be untouchable.

 

[duhmetreE]

I still can't believe the Jets landed Darnold. The franchise is cursed... this isn't supposed to happen... A 'franchise' QB? on the Jets?

What's next? A superbowl?

 

[GordonGecko]

Barkley is gonna be a great player but you absolutely cannot take an RB that high. Not in today's NFL. I'm pumped because he's a dope player but I'm upset because it should've been smarter.

SB is not a running back, he's a running back PLUS a receiver PLUS a blocker and does each at a very high level. Multi-tool NFL ready player, but even if he was off the board the Giants were still not taking a QB because they didn't rate any of them very high. At 2 they wanted an elite player and no QB fit that bill.

Giants had a fantastic draft with Barkley at 2 and Hernandez at 34

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Eli Manning Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Ryan Fitzpatrick Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

This is my absolute favorite QB comparison of all time.

They differ in essentially 1 stat: .2 TD:INT ratio difference. Everything else, stats-wise, is the same.

Joe Flacco Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

This one gets me too, and Flacco has a better TD:INT ratio. Eli Manning is Joe Flacco, with an extra superbowl ring. I'm sure Flacco would get put through the grinder here, but Eli is considered to be untouchable.

Now I do think that Manning is a step above Flacco for sure, but he's much closer to Flacco than he is Big Ben.

 

[GordonGecko]

Now I do think that Manning is a step above Flacco for sure, but he's much closer to Flacco than he is Big Ben.

The problem is you can't judge Manning based on recent years because he was sabotaged by Reese and MacDoodoo. With a suitable offensive scheme, a good O line, and now a running threat we'll see exactly what Eli has left in the tank. If he falls on his face maybe we get to see what Webb can do and if the old Eli resurfaces the Giants are instant contenders

 

[Hunter Gathers]

The problem is you can't judge Manning based on recent years because he was sabotaged by Reese and MacDoodoo. With a suitable offensive scheme, a good O line, and now a running threat we'll see exactly what Eli has left in the tank. If he falls on his face maybe we get to see what Webb can do and if the old Eli resurfaces the Giants are instant contenders

This is complete and utter garbage. Eli wasn't throwing into the feet of his players on screens or slants because he was "sabotaged". I can't take you seriously if that's what you start with.

How many times do those of us who watch every game have to say that we don't need to rely on a game by game stat line to evaluate Manning? I can see when he airmails a receiver and injures him. I can see when he throws into the turf for no reason. I can see when he throws the ball right to a linebacker with no receiver remotely in the area.

Eli has been trending down for 4 years, now.

And let's be fully honest, here. Even with all of that said, Eli Manning has never once posted a single season with a completion ratio above Ben's or Rivers's CAREER average. That's an astounding fact for someone who is allegedly in the same category. That's actually incredible and I had no idea that was even the case before I looked it up.

Eli Manning is a better, less injury prone Phil Simms. He's not an elite player. He's made the Pro Bowl all of four times his entire career. He has a passer rating under 84. He has never been an All Pro.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

At the end of the day, Eli Manning will get his jersey retired. He may get into the Hall of Fame, although one has to think that if his downward trend gets any worse, that it may impact his chances. He was an absolute warrior and a NY Giants hero. He stepped up when he had to and played lights out during a few playoff runs.

But he sure as shit has never been some amazing player. Outside of a handful of years, he's never been at the top of the QB lists.

As much as I loved him as a Giant and as much as he's done for this franchise, we need to stop deifying the guy.

 

[GordonGecko]

This is complete and utter garbage. Eli wasn't throwing into the feet of his players on screens or slants because he was "sabotaged". I can't take you seriously if that's what you start with.

How many times do those of us who watch every game have to say that we don't need to rely on a game by game stat line to evaluate Manning? I can see when he airmails a receiver and injures him. I can see when he throws into the turf for no reason. I can see when he throws the ball right to a linebacker with no receiver remotely in the area.

Eli has been trending down for 4 years, now.

And let's be fully honest, here. Even with all of that said, Eli Manning has never once posted a single season with a completion ratio above Ben's or Rivers's CAREER average. That's an astounding fact for someone who is allegedly in the same category. That's actually incredible and I had no idea that was even the case before I looked it up.

Eli Manning is a better, less injury prone Phil Simms. He's not an elite player. He's made the Pro Bowl all of four times his entire career. He has a passer rating under 84. He has never been an All Pro.

I get it, you're an Eli hater. COMPLETELY different player when he doesn't fear for his safety, as Archie Manning taught him it's not worth getting pounded. McAdoo wanted to run an Aaron Rodgers type offense, that just will not work with Manning.

Build around Eli's strengths and success will follow as the track record shows.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I get it, you're an Eli hater. COMPLETELY different player when he doesn't fear for his safety, as Archie Manning taught him it's not worth getting pounded. McAdoo wanted to run an Aaron Rodgers type offense, that just will not work with Manning.

Build around Eli's strengths and success will follow as the track record shows.

Oh there's that word. "Hater". That's how I know I can ignore your opinion, frankly. Only to someone so out of touch with reality is discussing a player's mediocre career stat-line over a very-clearly-small sample size of 14 seasons "hating" on that player.

We are looking at Eli's stats compared to his contemporaries. What career metric of Eli's is better than the significant other guys in the 2004 draft?

Eli hasn't had a "track record" of any real success in over half a decade. Get over it. Manning has never been a sustained elite player. Period.

 

[GordonGecko]

Oh there's that word. "Hater". That's how I know I can ignore your opinion, frankly. Only to someone so out of touch with reality is discussing a player's mediocre career stat-line over a very-clearly-small sample size of 14 seasons "hating" on that player.

We are looking at Eli's stats compared to his contemporaries. What career metric of Eli's is better than the significant other guys in the 2004 draft?

Eli hasn't had a "track record" of any real success in over half a decade. Get over it. Manning has never been a sustained elite player. Period.

That's twice now you're talking about ignoring and dismissing opinions that don't match yours. I understand you're bitter and very salty about Darnold not being picked but the current Giants do not see the world as you do. Are you going to be stewing in your seat when they are fielding a highly competitive team this year? Are you going to to hope your team fails to find a QB to succeed Manning just so you can say you were right?

Don't be so petty man, enjoy the ride things will work themselves out. I have no doubt the Giants will find their next Quarterback and make it work

 

[Hunter Gathers]

That's twice now you're talking about ignoring and dismissing opinions that don't match yours. I understand you're bitter and very salty about Darnold not being picked but the current Giants do not see the world as you do. Are you going to be stewing in your seat when they are fielding a highly competitive team this year? Are you going to to hope your team fails to find a QB to succeed Manning just so you can say you were right?

Don't be so petty man, enjoy the ride things will work themselves out. I have no doubt the Giants will find their next Quarterback and make it work

Oh, boy. Now we go with the other buzz words: Bitter and salty. So edgy!

Are you going to contribute to the actual discussion or are you just going to post random hot takes that are purely opinion based and not at all based on career analysis? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Don't worry. I'll wait for you to actually add something to the current discussion. I'm in a good mood.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

(By the way, it's hardly an opinion to state that there isn't a single individual metric that would put Manning above Rivers and Ben. It's about as much of a fact as you can get in the analysis of the career of a football player.)

 

[GordonGecko]

Oh, boy. Now we go with the other buzz words: Bitter and salty. So edgy!

Are you going to contribute to the actual discussion or are you just going to post random hot takes that are purely opinion based and not at all based on career analysis? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Don't worry. I'll wait for you to actually add something to the current discussion. I'm in a good mood.

Oh I've already added it to it, you just don't like the message. Stubborn as can be, but don't worry, you have a lot of internet message board cred so everyone knows you know more than Dave Gettleman and you definitely know what's actually right for the team

too funny

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Oh I've already added it to it, you just don't like the message. Stubborn as can be, but don't worry, you have a lot of internet message board cred so everyone knows you know more than Dave Gettleman and you know what's actually right for the team

too funny

Right. My opinion is that it's not a smart idea to build around a 37 year old QB who has seen key areas of his game and verifiable metrics/stats significantly decrease over the last half a decade. We are not talking about a small sample size; we are talking about a very large sample size spanning the end of said player's prime. I don't think that's a very controversial opinion, but I welcome your disagreement as long as it is somehow based in fact or reality.

However, I'm still waiting for you to try to refute the (backed up with basically every single stat stat and metric) near fact that Eli Manning is simply not a better player than either Ben or Rivers (he's had a better CAREER than Rivers with the success, but he's certainly not an individually better player) or is better than a fairly middling QB. What are you going to cite to refute that? Or are you simply too lazy to actually contribute, here, and more content to just throw out bullshit hot takes and incredibly low-level insults?

 

[darko]

I see the overrating of Eli continues.

 

[Fvital92]

Also, I like how you say the guy is at “the same level” and then discount the career stats. This isn’t some SSS comparison.

Hell, the completion percentage of Rivers and Ben is a full 5% higher than Eli’s. Over the course of a 14-year career, that’s absolutely incredible.

Hell, Manning hasn’t posted a SINGLE SEASON (!!!) with a completion percentage above either Rivers’s or Ben’s career average!

You simply ignore the schemes that each QB played. Gilbride's offense is a different animal than a West Coast offense, for example.
Rothlisberger and River had way better teams in their career and did less than Eli Manning. People thought that Peyton Manning choked against Tom Brady, Rothlisberger never won against the Patriots in a postseason game, this is horrible with the talent they have had in his career, funny thing nobody kills him for that like they killed Manning before his superbowl.

 

[LionsHeart]

I think Eli is hard to judge purely in stats. He may not be the greatest statistical QB, but he's played incredible in the playoffs and a proven winner. That being said, he's clearly been in decline, and if this were any other franchise I think they would've selected Sam Darnold last week.

Now if they win a Super Bowl during his last few years, then this is all a moot point. If Darnold turns into a superstar, and Eli is done in a year, and neither Webb or Lauletta become starters and the Giants wind up in QB hell, we'll be talking about this draft for the next decade at least.

Even if Barkley is as good as we all think he's going to be, this is still a gamble by Gettleman.

 

[JT Kreider]

Now if they win a Super Bowl during his last few years, then this is all a moot point. If Darnold turns into a superstar, and Eli is done in a year, and neither Webb or Lauletta become starters and the Giants wind up in QB hell, we'll be talking about this draft for the next decade at least.

Gettlemen will not even be around to see any of this. He was clearly bought in by Giants ownership to get the Giants back to Super Bowl contention in the next 3 seasons.


Hence my post that the Giants taking an RB at two was an incredibly short sighted move (with no firm future QB in place) which started this whole Eli discussion.

And I don't doubt that Barkley isn't going to ball the f*** out for the Giants. But so did AP for the Vikings and Tomlinson for San Diego but that still was not enough to get their teams to a Super Bowl.