OT: 2018 Football Thread: Camp is (almost) here!!!!!

[Synergy27]

You don't think Rivers is an easy first ballot if he wins a Lombardi? I think that's the only thing holding him back. Eli could get in on the first ballot, but is much more likely a guy who gets in during a weak class (if he and Ben retire at the same time, Ben gets in and he doesn't, IMO).

The 2004 class is the best overall class since 1983, anyway.

I don't know shit, I just had no idea that this was even a consideration. All the of these guys seemed like good, not great players to me. Definitely behind the best at their position. I'm ignorant of NFL HoF rules though.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I’m generally confused how you can follow football and not understand how any of this works re: the media, voting, etc.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I don't know ****, I just had no idea that this was even a consideration. All the of these guys seemed like good, not great players to me. Definitely behind the best at their position. I'm ignorant of NFL HoF rules though.

I don’t think any of them stack up overall to 1983. Just that the actual overall top end first round talent is the best since.

 

[Bob Richards]

I love Eli. Worship the ground he walks on for bringing one of my favorite teams further than any of the others.

That said he is also one of the most fascinatingly erratic QBs I've ever seen

A guy who could have 8 turnovers in 6 drives but could also carry an entire team and will them through a post season. It's pretty f***ing amazing.

 

[GordonGecko]

I love Eli. Worship the ground he walks on for bringing one of my favorite teams further than any of the others.

That said he is also one of the most fascinatingly erratic QBs I've ever seen

A guy who could have 8 turnovers in 6 drives but could also carry an entire team and will them through a post season. It's pretty ****ing amazing.

The fanbase is also fantastically bi-polar. Eli has gone from can't do anything wrong to can't do anything right. He used to be viewed as elite and now he's viewed as washed up. The truth is somewhere in between. Same with the team, last year going in the Giants were looked as near favorites to get to the Super Bowl and a great team, 3-13 later they completely suck nobody expects them to make the playoffs. Again, the truth is somewhere in between. If Gettleman can find a way to patch the remaining flaws, not least of which is a shaky defense and lack of pass rush, the Giants have just as good a shot at competing as anyone else in the NFC

Chicago Tribune gives Giants top grade for 2018 draft:
NFC draft grades: The Giants and Cardinals pass with flying colors. The Saints do not.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I love Eli. Worship the ground he walks on for bringing one of my favorite teams further than any of the others.

That said he is also one of the most fascinatingly erratic QBs I've ever seen

A guy who could have 8 turnovers in 6 drives but could also carry an entire team and will them through a post season. It's pretty ****ing amazing.

Right. At his peak, he could control that for the most part. Another good trait of his for 4-5 years.

I don’t get some Giants fans. Why do we have to make Eli into something he’s not? Eli Manning has more Suprr Bowls than the Eagles as a franchise. Why do some feel the need to make him into an all-world QB when that was never his strength?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

The fanbase is also fantastically bi-polar. Eli has gone from can't do anything wrong to can't do anything right. He used to be viewed as elite and now he's viewed as washed up. The truth is somewhere in between.

Anyone that said Eli was “elite” was likely referring to his ability to win games at one point. Again, this is something that’s has dropped off and he’s now one of the least clutch players in the league going on five years.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

538 did an excellent analysis on Eli’s career.

Eli Manning Is Profoundly Mediocre

He’s more Vinnt Testaverde (give me him over Vinny for sure, though) than Peyton Manning.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

To be fair, since 538 is a great source, when Eli was good enough to get into the playoffs, he was exceedingly clutch in terms of winning when he shouldn’t.

The Most Clutch Postseason Quarterback Of All Time Is Eli Manning

Which goes back to what I’ve said this entire conversation. He’s a decidedly mediocre player who has incredible toughness and durability. And for a time of about 4-5 years, he was the most clutch guy on the planet and had an incredible ability to elevate his game.

 

[Fvital92]

A

That you don’t understand the importance of an All Pro award is kind of incredible. That you don’t understand how NFL awards are given out is equally incredible.

Pray tell, who do you think decides the AP NFL MVP? Who decides the DPOY? Who votes on the HOF?

And? I know John Clayton is/was one of the voting members, do you think he studies film and knows more about a certain scheme than Martellus Bennet, a player that played said scheme?
Do you think Larry Brooks knows more about Xs and Os of Hockey than Dan Boyle?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

A

And? I know John Clayton is/was one of the voting members, do you think he studies film and knows more about a certain scheme than Martellus Bennet, a player that played said scheme?
Do you think Larry Brooks knows more about Xs and Os of Hockey than Dan Boyle?

So you truly don’t get any of the awards, how they work, and why they are prestigious? Man alive. The length you’re stretching to go this route is comical.

Pay more attention to the NFL, please. You come off as a guy who is a casual fan at best.

 

[Fvital92]

So you truly don’t get any of the awards, how they work, and why they are prestigious? Man alive. The length you’re stretching to go this route is comical.

Pay more attention to the NFL, please. You come off as a guy who is a casual fan at best.

Ok, I'm casual fan. Please, answer my question.

 

[Roo Returns]

Huge Giants fan and I love Eli and he'll probably go to the HOF for his two SB runs and 4-5 very good seasons.

However, in dating terms: (I'll keep it PG but you know what I'm trying to say) he's the guy that hasn't gone on a date in ten years but has in that time had two long weekends with world class models (Hannah Davis, Naomi Campbell, Cindy Crawford, Rachel Hunter, you get the picture). So does that make him an alooof legend, right time right place, or just really lucky? Somewhere in between.

 

[silverfish]

Browns exec on Josh Rosen: “Something about him . . . bothered me”

I mostly loathe every single person that works in any front office anywhere

 

[nyr2k2]

Browns exec on Josh Rosen: “Something about him . . . bothered me”

I mostly loathe every single person that works in any front office anywhere

He's Jewish (by birth), he's an atheist, and he's pretty outspoken in his political views which don't align with most of the rich owners and many of the front office-types. A lot of people will dislike him for those things.

 

[silverfish]

He's Jewish (by birth), he's an atheist, and he's pretty outspoken in his political views which don't align with most of the rich owners and many of the front office-types. A lot of people will dislike him for those things.

Seems a bit ridiculous, to me.

I mean, there's a line. This sort of happened a while back in hockey with Rocco Grimaldi, right? Like, he is super-religious, and I remember he fell a bit in the draft because of it. So there are these sort of 'off-field/ice' factors that detract from player value. Some of them I truly understand (Voynov), some of them I do not (Rosen article above, Grimaldi).

But, if these guys feel like it will truly inhibit the locker room, then yeah. So. Everyone has a different line. I'd say the line is blurry for most things, but should be completely solid for others.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Ok, I'm casual fan. Please, answer my question.

I think the sports media has a better ability to analyze the league as a whole and provide input on the league as a whole than do players (who almost never watch nearly as much as the media since it's not their job). That's why the sports media folks vote for the major awards and the Hall of Fame. It is literally their job to evaluate the league, players, etc. There is a lot less bias coming from the media than there would be an ex player looking to prop up someone he played with (or not create riffs with said player) considering you're taking a giant sample size of media folks versus one player.

That your idea of a comparison is Larry Brooks vs. Boyle is silly and flat out misses the mark. The proper comparison would be the ENTIRETY of hockey media folks, nation wide, versus Boyle.

I get that you're somehow blissfully unaware of this all, but the actual extent of your lack of awareness is staggering. "Donny, you're out of your element."

Further, whereas I asked you multiple times without getting any answers for various things, I've asked your question, here. You should be less lazy and do the same.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Seems a bit ridiculous, to me.

I mean, there's a line. This sort of happened a while back in hockey with Rocco Grimaldi, right? Like, he is super-religious, and I remember he fell a bit in the draft because of it. So there are these sort of 'off-field/ice' factors that detract from player value. Some of them I truly understand (Voynov), some of them I do not (Rosen article above, Grimaldi).

But, if these guys feel like it will truly inhibit the locker room, then yeah. So. Everyone has a different line. I'd say the line is blurry for most things, but should be completely solid for others.

FWIW, apparently Grimaldi was pretty evangelical in the locker room and did annoy some teammates. Or at least that's been the rumor for years, now. He may have curbed that, though.

 

[Fvital92]

I think the sports media has a better ability to analyze the league as a whole and provide input on the league as a whole than do players (who almost never watch nearly as much as the media since it's not their job). That's why the sports media folks vote for the major awards and the Hall of Fame. It is literally their job to evaluate the league, players, etc. There is a lot less bias coming from the media than there would be an ex player looking to prop up someone he played with (or not create riffs with said player) considering you're taking a giant sample size of media folks versus one player.

That your idea of a comparison is Larry Brooks vs. Boyle is silly and flat out misses the mark. The proper comparison would be the ENTIRETY of hockey media folks, nation wide, versus Boyle.

I get that you're somehow blissfully unaware of this all, but the actual extent of your lack of awareness is staggering. "Donny, you're out of your element."

Further, whereas I asked you multiple times without getting any answers for various things, I've asked your question, here. You should be less lazy and do the same.

Show me one question that you made and I didn't answer, please.

So you think sports media - John Clayton, Peter King, and even freaking Skip Bayless is one of them - knows more than ex player who actually played the game and studied schemes and how affect a player and etc. Larrys Brooks is the perfect example because it's a journalist that actually follow the team day by day, who definitely knows more about the Rangers than a guy from LA. Buy you want the entirety of hockey media example, here is one, in their view Toews is a better player than Malkin, which is beyond ridiculous.

Do you think that a voter from Seattle has the time and work to watch every Giants game to know what is really going on with a players performance. You should google mass media herd effect on google scholar.
Sorry, I can't argue with that level of ignorance.

 

[silverfish]

FWIW, apparently Grimaldi was pretty evangelical in the locker room and did annoy some teammates. Or at least that's been the rumor for years, now. He may have curbed that, though.

Yeah, understood. I guess if it is going to hurt the locker room, I understand.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Show me one question that you made and I didn't answer, please.

So you think sports media - John Clayton, Peter King, and even freaking Skip Bayless is one of them - knows more than ex player who actually played the game and studied schemes and how affect a player and etc. Larrys Brooks is the perfect example because it's a journalist that actually follow the team day by day, who definitely knows more about the Rangers than a guy from LA. Buy you want the entirety of hockey media example, here is one, in their view Toews is a better player than Malkin, which is beyond ridiculous.

Do you think that a voter from Seattle has the time and work to watch every Giants game to know what is really going on with a players performance. You should google mass media herd effect on google scholar.
Sorry, I can't argue with that level of ignorance.

I've asked multiple times for the individual metrics and/or stats that would put Manning above Rivers or Roethlisberger for their respective careers. You and others asked have just dodged the question about 10 times, now.

You need to research how the AP works. You're woefully uninformed. I'm not going to hold your hand and walk you through how the national sports media works since I have neither the time nor the patience. Why do you think the NFL records the AP votes for All Pro designation? It's not due to some herd effect or because these folks aren't experts. Perhaps your own country sucks for sports media and you're just projecting your own garbage onto the AP. I have no clue. Whatever it is, it is really quite cringeworthy. You clearly know nothing about how the AP functions and how important it is to the league (and sports in general).

The fact that you need to resort to cherrypicking someone you disagree with (like Bayless) speaks to your complete lack of knowledge. That's the argument of someone ignorant about sample size, the AP in general, and the fact that the AP doesn't even disclose voters.

You can feel free to have the last word. I'm sure you'll post something equally cringeworthy as you have for the last 25-30 posts. Some woefully uninformed quip about the AP or some more misunderstandings about year-end voting. Yeesh.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Yeah, understood. I guess if it is going to hurt the locker room, I understand.

I mean, I have no clue about Rocco currently. I know he got a cup of coffee last year and is apparently still planning on being a preacher when he retires.

 

[silverfish]

I mean, I have no clue about Rocco currently. I know he got a cup of coffee last year and is apparently still planning on being a preacher when he retires.

Right. I think there's a reason he was the first similar example I could think of. That tidbit about him probably pops up from time to time and stays fresh in my head.

The whole point being... there are definitely some things that would have me hesitant about adding a guy to my team or my locker room. I think some of these things are subjective by person putting a team together (ie. religious/political affiliation), and some things should just never be allowed (ie. being a convicted domestic abuser).

But, like with all things, everyone has their own line.

Some people watch Infinity War and go: "Oh, you know, this Thanos guy has a good point".

powerrangersshrug.gif

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Right. I think there's a reason he was the first similar example I could think of. That tidbit about him probably pops up from time to time and stays fresh in my head.

The whole point being... there are definitely some things that would have me hesitant about adding a guy to my team or my locker room. I think some of these things are subjective by person putting a team together (ie. religious/political affiliation), and some things should just never be allowed (ie. being a convicted domestic abuser).

But, like with all things, everyone has their own line.

Some people watch Infinity War and go: "Oh, you know, this Thanos guy has a good point".

powerrangersshrug.gif

 

[silverfish]

omfg