2018 Around The League

[krutovsdonut]

Canucks should not be over cap this year or for the next 3 or 4 anyway, we should be well under to allow for ELC bonuses every year. Hossa would just be on IR not LTIR.

If Hossa was assessed fit to play that would be great for the Canucks not bad. Hossa was still a good 2-way player, if he's fit someone would take him at 50% for 2nd. It'd be like getting paid twice.

or hossa would show up 20 lbs overweight, squeak through a physical, look like he had not skated in over a year, and refuse to waive his nmc, thus taking up a roster spot until 2021 and forcing us to protect him during expansion.

 

[Melvin]

because i don't believe the medical diagnosis, and if hossa is at any time assessed as fit to play that becomes a full cap hit with no ir relief.

That has basically no chance of happening and even then his cap hit of 5M for two years really isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Melvin]

or hossa would show up 20 lbs overweight, squeak through a physical, look like he had not skated in over a year, and refuse to waive his nmc, thus taking up a roster spot until 2021 and forcing us to protect him during expansion.

Do you make all of your life's decisions based on avoiding the worst possible case scenario your brain can conceive of that has effectively no chance at all of occurring?

Hossa has a cap hit of 5m for two seasons and will 99.99% be on LTIR. Being afraid to take that contract is bizarre.

 

[me2]

or hossa would show up 20 lbs overweight, squeak through a physical, look like he had not skated in over a year, and refuse to waive his nmc, thus taking up a roster spot until 2021 and forcing us to protect him during expansion.

tin foil hat territory.

* His contract ends in 2021 so any expansion in 2021 would be irrelevant as his NMC doesn't count (2017 draft - continuing NMCs had to be protected unless the player waived, impending UFAs with NMCs were not automatically protected).

* every report is Hossa is done.

* Hossa is pro with great work ethics, if he came back he'd be peak fitness.

* Let's assume this consummate professional has morphed into a slob. If he's 20lb over, suspended him until he's fit. What's he going to do, get angry and retire? Not our problem.

* I'd be trying to getting them to void, Hossa's sign off, the NMC as part of any deal anyway.

* Why would Hossa want to stay here on a badly run tank team and refuse to waive to a contender? The guy has chased cups.

 

[me2]

Do you make all of your life's decisions based on avoiding the worst possible case scenario your brain can conceive of that has effectively no chance at all of occurring?

Hossa has a cap hit of 5m for two seasons and will 99.99% be on LTIR. Being afraid to take that contract is bizarre.

The real question with any Hossa acquisition is "Can the Canucks do better with that cap space?".

Arizona probably couldn't, Hossa makes a $200K cash for 3 years and helps them get to the floor. For Arizona this isn't about cap, to them the cap ceiling matters little and cash hit is what breaks a deal. If Hossa was making $3m a year in cash Arizona either passes or demands a huge ransom - to them that much cash really hurts.

The Canucks are in a position to grab expensive contracts with a sizable cash component, you can charge a lot more for that. You can use 50% retentions to help other teams out for payments. etc. Long term cap hit matters to us as much or more than cash hit, if the reward is good enough the canucks should eat a bad cash hit. I'm not sure we couldn't put Hossa's cap hit to better value, lots of minor trades and 1 year retentions over 3 years.

 

[mossey3535]

or hossa would show up 20 lbs overweight, squeak through a physical, look like he had not skated in over a year, and refuse to waive his nmc, thus taking up a roster spot until 2021 and forcing us to protect him during expansion.

Well on one hand his diagnosis is also the easiest one to fake. All he has to say is that he feels itchy when he suits up. He's won everything, why would he show up and risk his health to play on a bottom feeder?

On the other hand as a Canucks fan I can see the NHL retroactively changing the rule to ban stuff like Robidas island.

 

[Melvin]

The real question with any Hossa acquisition is "Can the Canucks do better with that cap space?".

Arizona probably couldn't, Hossa makes a $200K cash for 3 years and helps them get to the floor. For Arizona this isn't about cap, to them the cap ceiling matters little and cash hit is what breaks a deal. If Hossa was making $3m a year in cash Arizona either passes or demands a huge ransom - to them that much cash really hurts.

The Canucks are in a position to grab expensive contracts with a sizable cash component, you can charge a lot more for that. You can use 50% retentions to help other teams out for payments. etc. Long term cap hit matters to us as much or more than cash hit, if the reward is good enough the canucks should eat a bad cash hit. I'm not sure we couldn't put Hossa's cap hit to better value, lots of minor trades and 1 year retentions over 3 years.

Oh, totally. And it definitely makes more sense for Arizona than it does for Vancouver. I'm not so sure I take his contract if all I get is what they got.

It's just weird to treat Hossa’s contract as anathema when it would be like the ninth worst one on our team.

 

[me2]

Well on one hand his diagnosis is also the easiest one to fake. All he has to say is that he feels itchy when he suits up. He's won everything, why would he show up and risk his health to play on a bottom feeder?

On the other hand as a Canucks fan I can see the NHL retroactively changing the rule to ban stuff like Robidas island.

I haven't seen pictures but speculation by some doctors suggested it could be contact dermatitis (see below for tame example). As much fun as it is poking fun at a rash induced LTIR, you really wouldn't want that all over your body.

 

[Melvin]

I saw someone make the argument that if they just wanted to fake an illness, they would have taken an easier route. I tend to agree with this argument. Hossa has had concussions in the past. This is a sensitive issue for the league obviously. All he has to do is say he feels some post concussion effects, feels dizzy etc and nobody in the league would say a word. Could you imagine? When the nhl is being sued over concussion issues? And then there's the classic back pain, etc.

Its pretty far fetched that they would make up a weird skin condition that nobody has ever heard of and somehow fabricate something to fool multiple physicians rather than go one of those other routes.

 

[me2]

Its pretty far fetched that they would make up a weird skin condition that nobody has ever heard of and somehow fabricate something to fool multiple physicians rather than go one of those other routes.

You can bet the insurance companies looked into it too. They'd have seen the evidence, the NHL would have seen the evidence, the canucks would get access to the evidence before any trade. I don't think there is any doubt he has problems, the explanation given was the medication he was on was harming him so he quit the medication and stopped playing. It is impossible to know exactly what he's mentally prepared to/can play though, which is why I doubt there would be any issues.

 

[Bitz and Bites]

solid deal for both sides.

With only $200K in cash / year on Hossa's deal there wasn't a lot of leverage, it's a very cheap deal. It is going to cost Arizona a grand total of $200K for three years if you factor in Chicago has already paid the first $400K for Hinostroza this year.

Dumping Kruger back on Chicago is good for Arizona too. Kruger cleared waivers last year and was in the AHL making $2.3m in cash money.

Hinostroza is on a similar level to Goldobin and Dahlen value-wise.

I like it for AZ,it's not a huge win but they come out of it with two legit NHLers that they can use along with a much higher draft pick plus they dump Kruger's salary and clear a couple of contracts as well.The Hossa contract also puts them comfortably over the cap floor for the next three years with minimal cash outlay which saves them having to overpay actual players to make the floor if the cap goes up again.

In terms of VanCity making that deal,we're already overloaded with wingers and LHS D-men so the value coming back just creates more of a log jam and would probably be lost to waivers so not much point there plus the salary would prevent us from possibly getting a better return on a different deal at a later date.

 

[pitseleh]

That has basically no chance of happening and even then his cap hit of 5M for two years really isn't that big of a deal.

He also obviously does not want to play and has made over $85 million in his career so far. If he's declared fit to play, given the choice between retiring and playing again for $1 million per year, he is almost assuredly taking the former. There'd be no cap penalty for the acquiring team.

 

[RobertKron]

Wouldn’t it be insurance fraud if he’d faked his condition? Why would he open himself up to that?

 

[me2]

Wouldn’t it be insurance fraud if he’d faked his condition? Why would he open himself up to that?

Abolsutely, and they would have checked given how much money they are dropping via insurance. The condition is real. The question is how much he is prepared to put himself through to try and play through it, it is hard to say where he drew the line is wrong.

 

[Melvin]

He also obviously does not want to play and has made over $85 million in his career so far. If he's declared fit to play, given the choice between retiring and playing again for $1 million per year, he is almost assuredly taking the former. There'd be no cap penalty for the acquiring team.

Oh Jesus. For some reason I was thinking it was a 35+ contract. Krutovs position makes even less sense now.

 

[vancityluongo]

He was arguably the best goalie in the NHL last year and finished 2nd in Vezina voting.

He's also the 3rd-youngest starting goalie in the NHL.

He wasn't getting signed for any less than that. Compare it to the contract Bobrovsky got at the same age 3 years ago and it actually looks pretty good.

Also if you don't think he's a long-term starter, you're very difficult to please.

Goalies are fickle though. Much less pedigree and a couple years older, but imagine giving Cam Talbot $6M two years ago. I'd be hesitant to give that to Demko after one good year coming off his ELC.

It's definitely fair value given where the cap is, and they'd be f***ed if they gave him a bridge now and he repeated his season last year. And Hellebuyck is certainly a long term starter, but:

https://www.tsn.ca/the-nhl-still-hasn-t-figured-out-how-to-pay-goaltenders-1.1137499

 

[Melvin]

Goaltenders are an annoying necessity. It's like paying your electricity bill. I would rather keep signing nilsssons than give any goalie a long term contract.

 

[MS]

Goalies are fickle though. Much less pedigree and a couple years older, but imagine giving Cam Talbot $6M two years ago. I'd be hesitant to give that to Demko after one good year coming off his ELC.

It's definitely fair value given where the cap is, and they'd be ****ed if they gave him a bridge now and he repeated his season last year. And Hellebuyck is certainly a long term starter, but:

https://www.tsn.ca/the-nhl-still-hasn-t-figured-out-how-to-pay-goaltenders-1.1137499

Oh, I don't disagree with any of that and have been saying most of it for years. The position is absurdly volatile.

That said, Hellebuyck is a better bet than most, and Winnipeg had no other option really than a contract like this coming off a year where he nearly won the Vezina and nearly took them to the Finals. Especially given the goaltending nightmare that team has had for the past decade.

It's not a horrible cap % at all and the deal runs out when he's still only 30.

If Demko is a Vezina finalist in 19-20, I'd be ok with a contract like this.

 

[m9]

I'd be talking to the Hawks now about our forward surplus. Chicago has only 9 forwards signed, they need bodies. I'd see if they had any interest in Gagner and/or Granlund for picks

There are rumors that the Hawks are interested in Gagner. We may have to retain on that one, but whatever.. get him out of here.

 

[jester00]

Sure, retain a portion of Gagner's contract, get back the better of both the Hawks 4th and 7th round picks.

 

[Hit the post]

would show up 20 lbs overweight, squeak through a physical, look like he had not skated in over a year

****looks at username****.

(a shame really, a well past his prime (but still in reasonable shape) Krutov would've been quite effective in the NHL back then)

 

[krutovsdonut]

****looks at username****.

(a shame really, a well past his prime (but still in reasonable shape) Krutov would've been quite effective in the NHL back then)

poor guy was only 29 though. larionov was the same age and played 15 more seasons.

looks a bit like jake in this photo as a youngster.

 

[HankNDank]

Oh, I don't disagree with any of that and have been saying most of it for years. The position is absurdly volatile.

That said, Hellebuyck is a better bet than most, and Winnipeg had no other option really than a contract like this coming off a year where he nearly won the Vezina and nearly took them to the Finals. Especially given the goaltending nightmare that team has had for the past decade.

It's not a horrible cap % at all and the deal runs out when he's still only 30.

If Demko is a Vezina finalist in 19-20, I'd be ok with a contract like this.

Some people were saying that his numbers are a byproduct of a good team in front of him. Well then how does that explain him having roughly a GAA of 1.00 lower and a SV% roughly .020 higher than any of the three back ups they used this year? That kind of difference is worth paying for. If Demko can beat Markstrom by that much, then pay the man his worth.

 

[krutovsdonut]

the comment about hawks still liking gagner made me check and kruger's contract is also $3m. maybe it was an either/or proposition.

question though: by adding kruger and shedding hossa do the hawks actually make their cap situation worse in the short term given they could claim ir cap relief for the hossa contract?

i know it takes some close roster management to maximize the value of ir cap relief, but dumping the hossa contract would seem to reduce the amount they could spend this season by about $2 million, so presumably it is more about shedding the 3 year remaining term of hossa's deal than immediate relief.

 

[m9]

They gave up a center making 1.5 million and Kruger is 2.77 million. So you are looking at under 1.3 million for that swap.