2018-19 Utica Comets, Pt. III

[Lindgren]

Really? I missed that one. Can you quote it? Or do you have the post #?

Can you cite an example of an overreaction? If expectations were to high, is it an overreaction to imply that expectations should be lowered?

To say that most forward prospects who end up as impact players in the top 6 in the NHL do well very quickly in the AHL isn't to overreact to Dahlen's progress. It also isn't to declare him a bust. It's to point out what you say: expectations were too high (mine certainly were).

Turns out that MS did indeed say he'd rather have traded Dahlen. See below. I think he's wrong.

This isn't a minor loss. I would actually give this a thumbs-up if we were dumping Gadjovich or Lind or even Dahlen in this deal and getting something for a failing prospect before they became worthless. Carcone is a guy who is blowing up right now and we never got to see what we had.

 

[DonnyNucker]

There you go, I normally don't point finger at other poster especially in a different thread.
Will put MS back onto ignored list after this, hope this conversation doesnt drag on too much

LMFAO thanks for outing him. That’s absurd Carcone a greater loss than Dahlen would be lol

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

He was one of many, myself included, who thought Dahlen's ranking in the prospect rank thread was far too high given his performance in Utica this year. Dahlen was practically invisible on the ice until this recent couple of games. MS was just being honest, he has been watching the games and used the most recent information available in his assessment. Nothing replaces watching the games.

Only guy I ever blocked was that autistic fellow that used to talk about eating his boogers; he came onto my personal page once and dumped some silly posts there. But in the end I just decided to give him a hard time on the forum for a couple of days and that was that.

I've ignored a few obvious trolls like Johnny, also some well-known posters who are getting up in people's face and telling them how you should act to be considered a real Canucks fan, which is both childish and stupid IMO.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

LMFAO thanks for outing him. That’s absurd Carcone a greater loss than Dahlen would be lol

Yeah, I found myself disagreeing with MS's post game analysis more and more last month but decided to not say anything. Then I saw that post when the trade happened and was like....ummm okay.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Toronto Marlies came back from a 3-1 deficit against the Laval Rocket to tie it up at 18:59 of the 3rd.

2:38 into the OT, Jordan Subban took a crosschecking penalty and the Rocket won it with a PP Goal at 2:55. Good old Jordan. Out on the ice in OT for his offense and his **** D costs them the game.

Carcone was held off the score sheet and had 1 shot on goal.

I heard a pregame interview in which the speaker said Toronto has had their eye on Carcone for some time because in their games vs the Comets he was always a pain in their side. Lots of season left. Let's see how he does.

 

[bobbyb2009]

Toronto Marlies came back from a 3-1 deficit against the Laval Rocket to tie it up at 18:59 of the 3rd.

2:38 into the OT, Jordan Subban took a crosschecking penalty and the Rocket won it with a PP Goal at 2:55. Good old Jordan. Out on the ice in OT for his offense and his **** D costs them the game.

Carcone was held off the score sheet and had 1 shot on goal.

I heard a pregame interview in which the speaker said Toronto has had their eye on Carcone for some time because in their games vs the Comets he was always a pain in their side. Lots of season left. Let's see how he does.

How do you think he will do?

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

 

[shottasasa]

Gadjovich hasn't shown much aggressiveness yet in the AHL, and despite that video, I'm not entirely sure that was really his game in junior, granted I didn't see him much. He did get involved clearing the crease and after the whistle against Bingo but I'd really like to see him be a bit more nasty. Perhaps it'll come as he settles in a bit, after all, he's a rookie that has had a lot of adjusting to do, and still plainly lots more though he has looked a bit better the last two games.

But really, Utica should not be relying on a rookie like that to bring a nasty edge. They don't have a lot of size or aggressiveness in the lineup except for Archi, MacEwan and Woods, who wasn't dressed tonight. We might see more of Arseneau in the lineup, though ideally I want to see someone like Gaunce step up and play with a bit more of an edge. I think it would help him get back to the NHL but unfortunately that doesn't seem part of his personality even though he can hit pretty well. They could use some toughness on the back end too, this roster definitely has some holes.

Even with the toughest goons, stuff like what happened to Sautner is going to happen occasionally. But what they can maybe control is the constant attempts to take long runs and intimidate players. At one point a Bingo player crossed half the ice to take a run at Breisbois after he came back into the game even though the puck was long gone. The Bingo player pulled up at the last minute so either he thought better of taking what would be an obvious penalty or was playing the intimidation game and trying to put some fear into Breisbois, I suspect the latter. Utica needs to stop teams doing that kind of crap because they don't always pull up, and defenders who think play scared or they are always going to get creamed are more likely to make panicked and/or decisions.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Nice BD card. However, you may be giving people the impression he was the game winning goalie. Bachman was the keeper Saturday night as you know.

No real critique. Jus ta heads up on the impression I think many may draw.

 

[DownGoesMcDavid]

Toronto Marlies came back from a 3-1 deficit against the Laval Rocket to tie it up at 18:59 of the 3rd.

2:38 into the OT, Jordan Subban took a crosschecking penalty and the Rocket won it with a PP Goal at 2:55. Good old Jordan. Out on the ice in OT for his offense and his **** D costs them the game.

Carcone was held off the score sheet and had 1 shot on goal.

I heard a pregame interview in which the speaker said Toronto has had their eye on Carcone for some time because in their games vs the Comets he was always a pain in their side. Lots of season left. Let's see how he does.

Why are we getting Marlies and Carcone update ?? Who cares. Move on.

 

[shottasasa]

He has been much more noticeable these past three games. Has been scoring, seems to be skating better, and is getting more involved in the play despite the softness of the Comets roster and the underlying danger therein.

And Lind, Gadjovich and even Palmu are looking better lately too...sink or swim I guess eh

Dahlen has looked a lot better, he makes some plays that no one else in Utica can make, or even a lot of the players in Vancouver can't make. But he's not showing to be a possession driver. His game is one of quick one touch passes, give and goes, and getting into space for quick scoring opportunities. He doesn't skate with the puck or drive transition much, which comes back to his lack of explosiveness skating. He's improved defensively and has won more board battles, but he does most of that with his stick and can be neutralised or beat by bigger players who play the body. For those reasons I don't think he's not showing to be a blue chip prospect but has a good chance to be a really good complimentary player, the third man on a top 6 line was it were. Hence he looks great on the power play, but hasn't driven play 5 on 5 as much as we would all like. It's no coincidence that he's looked a lot better with Gaunce as his centre, who is a good possession player and good in the defensive zone.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Dahlen has looked a lot better, he makes some plays that no one else in Utica can make, or even a lot of the players in Vancouver can't make. But he's not showing to be a possession driver. His game is one of quick one touch passes, give and goes, and getting into space for quick scoring opportunities. He doesn't skate with the puck or drive transition much, which comes back to his lack of explosiveness skating. He's improved defensively and has won more board battles, but he does most of that with his stick and can be neutralised or beat by bigger players who play the body. For those reasons I don't think he's not showing to be a blue chip prospect but has a good chance to be a really good complimentary player, the third man on a top 6 line was it were. Hence he looks great on the power play, but hasn't driven play 5 on 5 as much as we would all like. It's no coincidence that he's looked a lot better with Gaunce as his centre, who is a good possession player and good in the defensive zone.

No you're right, he doesn't have the puck on his stick much but how about that goal he scored Friday night where he went to the goal mouth to bang in the rebound on his own shot. That's the kind of involvement and initiative I thought I'd never see from the kid. I'm not going crazy here; he's still not a top five prospect imho but he's top ten I'd say. Just giving him his due.

 

[shottasasa]

No you're right, he doesn't have the puck on his stick much but how about that goal he scored Friday night where he went to the goal mouth to bang in the rebound on his own shot. That's the kind of involvement and initiative I thought I'd never see from the kid. I'm not going crazy here; he's still not a top five prospect imho but he's top ten I'd say. Just giving him his due.

Yeah, that was really good to see, and a bit of a relief to see he can do that kind of thing. I don’t think Dahlen is a soft player, he’ll go to the “dirty areas to score”, but he’s not shown to be physical on the boards so he does have some limitations.

As far as hweee he ranks as a prospect, I actually think he’s still well inside the top ten, partly because some players are struggling but also because I try not to get excited about junior or NCAA until they show they can play up a level, unless of course they are blue chippers like Hughes or Boeser. Too many just show they can make the jump

 

[MS]

LMFAO thanks for outing him. That’s absurd Carcone a greater loss than Dahlen would be lol

Player A is 22, one of the fastest skaters in the AHL, and was Utica’s best forward almost every game in the month before he was traded. Plays in every situation, is physical, is solid defensively.

Player B is 21, a below-average skater, is a complete perimeter player who is a ghost at ES, has no intangibles, and has basically only shown PP utility (where, to be fair, he is very good). Was on the 4th line last week.

Both players are the same size.

Explain why it’s LOL to say that player A is a bigger loss.

Dahlen has nice hands and ability to give and receive a pass, and can make plays with the sort of time and space he gets on the PP where his sluggish skating is less of an issue. Unless he does a complete 180 in terms of his compete level while simultaneously improving his skating significantly, he’s not a great prospect.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Player A is 22, one of the fastest skaters in the AHL, and was Utica’s best forward almost every game in the month before he was traded. Plays in every situation, is physical, is solid defensively.

Player B is 21, a below-average skater, is a complete perimeter player who is a ghost at ES, has no intangibles, and has basically only shown PP utility (where, to be fair, he is very good). Was on the 4th line last week.

Both players are the same size.

Explain why it’s LOL to say that player A is a bigger loss.

Dahlen has nice hands and ability to give and receive a pass, and can make plays with the sort of time and space he gets on the PP where his sluggish skating is less of an issue. Unless he does a complete 180 in terms of his compete level while simultaneously improving his skating significantly, he’s not a great prospect.

Also ignoring me because I criticized Dahlen? Seriously? I may end up being wrong and I’ve been wrong before but ignoring someone on a message board because they posted an opinion you don’t like that didn’t follow the sheep, and backed that opinion up with a long explanation based on a large sample of viewings is just pathetic.

To be honest, I have only seen one Utica game this year. I want to see more but it hasn’t worked out. I watched Carcone and Dahlen last year and In preseason and imo it’s pretty clear who is a real prospect. Come on man. Would you really, truly swap Carcone and dahlen in that trade? No you wouldn’t. I respect your opinion I just think it’s a bit clouded at times

 

[MS]

Made it through the Friday 5-2 win vs. Springfield.

Weird game. Boring game for the first 35 minutes where Utica was handily outplayed and generated basically nothing at ES. Then there was a minor scrum after their top prospect Borgstrom (possibly accidentally) had a bit of a slewfoot in Demko while Demko was handling the puck ... and Springfield basically lost their minds with a string of cheapshots, sucker punches, and idiotic penalties that basically handed Utica the game on a silver platter with a string of PPs. Complete clownshow.

- Dahlen scores twice, again both on the PP (one technically ES, but was on a extended delayed penalty called during a 4-on-4 so a fully PP situation). Lots of PP action gave him a chance to show his skills and was effective and put a lot of pucks toward the net. At ES, the MacEwan-Gaunce-Dahlen line was the best line but Dahlen was decidedly the 3rd best player. Did have a couple better ES shifts but his inability to separate himself due to his average skating continues to be an issue.

- Gaunce finally at C. Overdue and made the squad a lot more balanced.

- Jasek has 1 or 2 moments/game where he makes a skill play or competes really well ... and then has extended periods where he’s zigging while everyone else is zagging. Poor puck management really dragged down his line with Kero and Archibald - received a big opportunity there with Boucher a late scratch and really did nothing with it.

- Palmu actually looked pretty decent. Had some jump and was one of the only guys creating things early. You hope that in year 2/3 of his ELC we can at least get some AHL utility out of his contract and this was a positive sign.

- Gadjovich invisible in a game where you’d hope his size and alleged physicality would have been helpful.

- Graham isn’t a prospect but has improved by leaps and bounds with the increased responsibility since Juolevi’s injury. Skated miles on this one.

- Blujus continues to carry the biggest load on the blueline and really needs a pro contract. Brisebois continues to disappoint and was demoted to the 3rd pairing. Probably played the fewest minutes in this one.

- Demko very solid again. 2 goals were a deflection and a rebound off a breakaway save. Could have been over by the middle of the game without some key saves.

- #47 Jacob MacDonald for Springfield is an older prospect with a weird development curve who we should be all over if he ever hits waivers. Has size, skating ability, smooth passer. Looks better than a guy like Pouliot.

 

[F A N]

Player A is 22, one of the fastest skaters in the AHL, and was Utica’s best forward almost every game in the month before he was traded. Plays in every situation, is physical, is solid defensively.

Player B is 21, a below-average skater, is a complete perimeter player who is a ghost at ES, has no intangibles, and has basically only shown PP utility (where, to be fair, he is very good). Was on the 4th line last week.

Both players are the same size.

Explain why it’s LOL to say that player A is a bigger loss.

Dahlen has nice hands and ability to give and receive a pass, and can make plays with the sort of time and space he gets on the PP where his sluggish skating is less of an issue. Unless he does a complete 180 in terms of his compete level while simultaneously improving his skating significantly, he’s not a great prospect..

It's this type of short-sightedness that made you think Lack was better than Luongo and Miller.

And oh. In the Granlund for Shinkaruk trade discussion, I thought you were big into the whole waiver status. Well Carcone requires waivers next summer. Dahlen doesn't.

 

[MS]

I haven’t ignored you. To be honest, I have only seen one Utica game this year. I want to see more but it hasn’t worked out. I watched Carcone and Dahlen last year and In preseason and imo it’s pretty clear who is a real prospect. Come on man. Would you really, truly swap Carcone and dahlen in that trade? No you wouldn’t. I respect your opinion I just think it’s a bit clouded at times

I think Carcone is a bit better prospect but that Dahlen has more trade value due to his pedigree.

I know everyone will disagree with my opinion. And I don’t really care. The NHL is a skating game right now more than ever and Carcone can flat-out fly and is the fastest skater I’ve seen in the AHL this year watching most Utica games. You look at a guy like Paul Byron and I think there’s a solid chance Carcone’s skills can translate the same way.

When I see two guys basically the same age and size and one is lighting up the AHL and doing it with electric skating ability and the other is struggling not to be a liability 5-on-5 because his skating is mediocre ... I’m going to rate the first guy higher.

And at least I’m backing up my opinion. Unlike the NYA NYA YOUR OPINION IS STUPID COS DAHLEN WHO I HAVENT WATCHED PLAY WAS DRAFTED HIGHER AND PEOPLE TOLD ME HE WAS A BETTER PROSPECT complete rubbish that has absolutely zero to do with the players’ respective skill sets, projections, and performances.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

It's this type of short-sightedness that made you think Lack was better than Luongo and Miller.

And oh. In the Granlund for Shinkaruk trade discussion, I thought you were big into the whole waiver status. Well Carcone requires waivers next summer. Dahlen doesn't.

You're joking..?

 

[MS]

It's this type of short-sightedness that made you think Lack was better than Luongo and Miller.

And oh. In the Granlund for Shinkaruk trade discussion, I thought you were big into the whole waiver status. Well Carcone requires waivers next summer. Dahlen doesn't.

How about you go back and compare the number of times I’ve been right to the number of times I’ve been wrong?

And even though the absolute worst case happened on Lack, everything I said about our goalie situation still ended up being correct. Hooray, we ended up paying $6 million to play a 36 y/o starter in a year where we finished 29th?

The Luongo situation was a mess and it was time to move on. I’ve never questioned his ability, at least in the regular season.

Waivers thing is a fair point.

 

[Get North]

Player A is 22, one of the fastest skaters in the AHL, and was Utica’s best forward almost every game in the month before he was traded. Plays in every situation, is physical, is solid defensively.

Player B is 21, a below-average skater, is a complete perimeter player who is a ghost at ES, has no intangibles, and has basically only shown PP utility (where, to be fair, he is very good). Was on the 4th line last week.

Both players are the same size.

Explain why it’s LOL to say that player A is a bigger loss.

Dahlen has nice hands and ability to give and receive a pass, and can make plays with the sort of time and space he gets on the PP where his sluggish skating is less of an issue. Unless he does a complete 180 in terms of his compete level while simultaneously improving his skating significantly, he’s not a great prospect

Because player B is the younger and more skilled player. We're talking about prospects here, not NHL developed players, what's harder to develop, high-end offensive skill or skating/defence/physicality?

Carcone has played on North American ice his whole career, while having 2 years of experience in the AHL prior to this one. He's finally playing to a higher level in his 3rd year of the AHL, his D+5 season.

This is Dahlen's first true year on North American ice. He's proven to be one of the best players on a team (Timra). Unfortunately, it doesn't look like this year he'll be able to do that in Utica. But, he's already ahead of Carcone in his D+3 season. Dahlen is barely 180 lbs in his first year of the AHL. You've been watching the AHL, you know how intimidating that league can be for a 20 year old kid in his first year in a new country. AHL is physically tougher than the NHL and Utica's soft team clearly isn't helping Dahlen feel any better.

Look at Dahlen's first year in Timra and then his next 2. His production increases by .40 PPG from year 1 to 2.

You taking Carcone over Dahlen is the equivalent to taking Granlund over Shinkaruk. You'd rather have the low ceiling, garbage player who might have a chance at a bottom 6 role on the worst team in the NHL than the guy who possesses the skill to at least have a chance to be an impact player.

 

[MS]

Because player B is the younger and more skilled player. We're talking about prospects here, not NHL developed players, what's harder to develop, high-end offensive skill or skating/defence/physicality?

Carcone has played on North American ice his whole career, while having 2 years of experience in the AHL prior to this one. He's finally playing to a higher level in his 3rd year of the AHL, his D+5 season.

This is Dahlen's first true year on North American ice. He's proven to be one of the best players on a team (Timra). Unfortunately, it doesn't look like this year he'll be able to do that in Utica. But, he's already ahead of Carcone in his D+3 season. Dahlen is barely 180 lbs in his first year of the AHL. You've been watching the AHL, you know how intimidating that league can be for a 20 year old kid in his first year in a new country. AHL is physically tougher than the NHL and Utica's soft team clearly isn't helping Dahlen feel any better.

Look at Dahlen's first year in Timra and then his next 2. His production increases by .40 PPG from year 1 to 2.

You taking Carcone over Dahlen is the equivalent to taking Granlund over Shinkaruk. You'd rather have the low ceiling, garbage player who might have a chance at a bottom 6 role on the worst team in the NHL than the guy who possesses the skill to at least have a chance to be an impact player.

Dahlen is a year younger and has a year more of experience playing against men. They’re basically the same age.

If Dahlen wasn’t producing but was showing NHL skating ability and quality 5-on-5 play, I wouldn’t be concerned. But the track record of 5-11 180 lb guys who are mediocre skaters at the AHL level is horrific.

I disagree that Carcone has a low ceiling. How many times have you watched him play this year?

 

[Get North]

Dahlen is a year younger and has a year more of experience playing against men. They’re basically the same age.

If Dahlen wasn’t producing but was showing NHL skating ability and quality 5-on-5 play, I wouldn’t be concerned. But the track record of 5-11 180 lb guys who are mediocre skaters at the AHL level is horrific.

I disagree that Carcone has a low ceiling. How many times have you watched him play this year?

He's a year younger, but to be even more clear, he's also 2 drafts younger than Carcone (2014 vs 2016). Allsvenskan is a totally different league than the AHL. The physicality is night and day.

That's fair enough, but Dahlen is turning 21 in a couple weeks. He's barely a "guy." Is it unrealistic to expect him to improve his skating/strength/overall play in 2 years? Horvat improved his skating the year before he made the team. He was with the organization in the summers, unlike Dahlen who was in Sweden until this season. I think he has already realized he will have to improve to play in the NHL. I'm sure Carcone also realized that after first season in the AHL considering his improvement.

That's fine if you think he has a low ceiling, but he is at least a couple notches below Dahlen offensively. 6 games, 5 with Carcone playing.

Yeah, not a lot of games, but I know what I saw. A young, weak kid that played timid. He wasn't afraid in Allsvenskan, so I don't think Dahlen is a marshmallow like Granlund. He has to gain strength though to not get beat up.

 

[MS]

He's a year younger, but to be even more clear, he's also 2 drafts younger than Carcone (2014 vs 2016). Allsvenskan is a totally different league than the AHL. The physicality is night and day.

That's fair enough, but Dahlen is turning 21 in a couple weeks. He's barely a "guy." Is it unrealistic to expect him to improve his skating/strength/overall play in 2 years? Horvat improved his skating the year before he made the team. He was with the organization in the summers, unlike Dahlen who was in Sweden until this season. I think he has already realized he will have to improve to play in the NHL. I'm sure Carcone also realized that after first season in the AHL considering his improvement.

That's fine if you think he has a low ceiling, but he is at least a couple notches below Dahlen offensively. 6 games, 5 with Carcone playing.

Yeah, not a lot of games, but I know what I saw. A young, weak kid that played timid. He wasn't afraid in Allsvenskan, so I don't think Dahlen is a marshmallow like Granlund. He has to gain strength though to not get beat up.

Dahlen has been playing against men longer, and been exposed to high-level coaching longer. Carcone basically went from a roster walk-on in the Q to the AHL in 2 years. His development curve has been a lot sharper than Dahlen’s. Again, all things considered I consider them the same hockey age.

But again, the problem isn’t who played when in what league or scored how many points. The problem is that Dahlen is small and slow. And history tells us that small slow players aren’t a good bet. And when that small slow player is having huge problems keeping up with the play at ES in the AHL at age 21, you can’t just stick your head in the sand and ignore it. Especially when you combine that with his perimeter play.

________

And I should reinforce that I consider the difference small. I’d probably have Carcone 7th or 8th on our prospect list and Dahlen 8th or 9th.

I’ve been repeatedly complimentary of Dahlen’s hands, ability to give and receive a pass, and puck management. Those skills play well on the PP and he’s a ‘pretty good’ prospect.

But the level of hysteria when someone dares to go against the consensus in terms of prospect rankings is just hilarious.

 

[Get North]

Dahlen has been playing against men longer, and been exposed to high-level coaching longer. Carcone basically went from a roster walk-on in the Q to the AHL in 2 years. His development curve has been a lot sharper than Dahlen’s. Again, all things considered I consider them the same hockey age.

But again, the problem isn’t who played when in what league or scored how many points. The problem is that Dahlen is small and slow. And history tells us that small slow players aren’t a good bet. And when that small slow player is having huge problems keeping up with the play at ES in the AHL at age 21, you can’t just stick your head in the sand and ignore it. Especially when you combine that with his perimeter play.

________

And I should reinforce that I consider the difference small. I’d probably have Carcone 7th or 8th on our prospect list and Dahlen 8th or 9th.

I’ve been repeatedly complimentary of Dahlen’s hands, ability to give and receive a pass, and puck management. Those skills play well on the PP and he’s a ‘pretty good’ prospect.

But the level of hysteria when someone dares to go against the consensus in terms of prospect rankings is just hilarious.

You keep saying men, like Allsvenskan is the same as the AHL. The top scoring American in Allsvenskan, Justin Crandall couldn't crack an AHL line-up, he was putting up the same numbers in the ECHL as he is putting up in the Allsvenskan this season. Clearly, the Allsvenskan is garbage compared to the AHL. Men also play in beer leagues, but that doesn't mean it's tough competition. Get my point?

I agree that if Dahlen stays small and slow he won't be successful. But, I highly doubt he'll be this small, and I think he will get faster. I hear you, he's playing poorly in the AHL, but what did you expect? I didn't expect him to tear the AHL up. He's not Pettersson, he's a early-mid 2nd round pick.

My point is, I think Dahlen will improve his skating and gain strength this off-season or maybe next off-season if that's how long it takes. Horvat improved his skating, Virtanen and Hutton conditioned themselves better. How long after they got drafted did they improve on those things?

I don't have a problem with your opinion. If you think Carcone is a better prospect than Dahlen, whatever, you've seen him more than me this season. But, I feel like you're closing the book on Dahlen after reading the first chapter. IMO, I'm treating this like a Lind/Jasek/Gadjovich. After seeing how much guys like Virtanen, Hutton, Horvat, Baertschi, and even Goldobin improve, I have much more patience and belief in a guy like Dahlen.

You watch a lot of Utica games and you can see the difference in physical maturity (strength) from guys like Lind/Jasek/Dahlen to veterans like Kero, Bancks, Darcy. Similar weight/height, but a significant difference in strength. The kids look like they haven't seen a gym. But, they won't be like that forever, once they gain that strength, you will see a different player.