2018-19 Roster Talk: Part One

[Striiker]

Then why weren't people talking about it like this year?

Maaaaaaybe because it wasn't obvious before?

 

[Lindberg]

Then why weren't people talking about it like this year?

Maaaaaaybe because it wasn't obvious before?

That's news to me. The PK has been bad for years and people were shocked/baffled that the only coach that got fired was Mullen.

 

[Striiker]

That's news to me. The PK has been bad for years and people were shocked/baffled that the only coach that got fired was Mullen.

So, lets be clear, was it obvious that Lappy was the problem for the last 4 years or not? Not in hindsight, but during each of the last 4 years, did we know at the time?

 

[Ruck Over]

Realistically what would you give up? What wpuld you be willing to part with

4 more years of RFA control, ~45 pt LW/C. 23 years old, finishing first contract. It depends on how much of a finished/projected prospect ARZ wants and a correlating draft pick a tad in the opposite direction. Marody got a 3rd, so Domi is at least a 2nd + tier B/B-, or a 3rd + tier B+/B. Rubstov is an easy add, a bit tougher Vorobyev. Hagg, Friedman, or the lesser of the two Swedes.

If they want a roster player, Michael Raffl. I don't love it, but give to get and hope Domi rebounds wonderfully. I wouldn't trade Laughton, don't consider Weal to be worth anything, not delusional they fix any problems by taking AMac, Lehtera, or Weise.

I am interested. A move done today that will hopefully keep paying off tomorrow.

 

[Lindberg]

So, lets be clear, was it obvious that Lappy was the problem for the last 4 years or not? Not in hindsight, but during each of the last 4 years, did we know at the time?

Well the PK dipped significantly after 2013-2014 season.

I don't know what the inner workings are when it comes to the head coach vs assistant coach but you don't need 2 1/2 to 3 years to decide a coaching change is necessary. I'm under the logical assumption that Lappy has the responsibility and duties of running the PK system. Lappy should have been fired at least two years ago.

 

[Striiker]

Well the PK dipped significantly after 2013-2014 season.

I don't know what the inner workings are when it comes to the head coach vs assistant coach but you don't need 2 1/2 to 3 years to decide a coaching change is necessary. I'm under the logical assumption that Lappy has the responsibility and duties of running the PK system. Lappy should have been fired at least two years ago.

You didn't answer the question at all. Nothing you said here answers whether or not people on here were complaining about Lappy consistently for the last 4 years...

I didn't ask when the PK got worse, I didn't ask what the inner workings of the coaching staff are, I didn't ask if Lappy should have been fired or not.

I'll ask again and you can literally give a "yes" or "no" answer here.

So, lets be clear, was it obvious that Lappy was the problem for the last 4 years or not? Not in hindsight, but during each of the last 4 years, did we know at the time?

 

[BernieParent]

On Laperriere and the PK, I believe there are parallel discussions on the on-ice performance and the semantics. The PK has been awful for a couple of seasons though my occasional viewing finds it hard to put my finger on the main problem. Dead has posted stats on the poor PK Sv%, and that has been a factor. An aggressive PK was tried a few years back, with Laviolette IIRC, and it was pretty bad, too. Bottom line: something has to change but I don't know what so I have to muffle my criticism of the PK coach.

The semantic argument is a different matter. This is voiced by the many who say that in the real world, you keep your job when you have success. I can't disagree with this to show that the team is committed to winning.

Thus, a long winded way of saying i would be in agreement with firing Laperriere but don't have a clue what or who would constitute an improvement.

 

[Lindberg]

You didn't answer the question at all. Nothing you said here answers whether or not people on here were complaining about Lappy consistently for the last 4 years...

I didn't ask when the PK got worse, I didn't ask what the inner workings of the coaching staff are, I didn't ask if Lappy should have been fired or not.

I'll ask again and you can literally give a "yes" or "no" answer here.

I'm not sure why you want a black and white answer to a question that none of us have 100% of the answer to. As far as the four years things go I'm sure people at the beginning were willing to give him a leash to see if he could turn it around. I don't care to spend my time looking through old posts but I'm sure people weren't complaining about him after six months of it falling off.

You need time to collect data and accurately analyze a situation.

Boiling it down to some stupid yes or no answer is ridiculous.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

When Ron traded Schenn for draft picks instead of players (and St Louis could have put together a package of players at the back of the roster/AHL/juniors) he was both signaling the rebuild wasn't over and that he was setting himself up for the ED.

If the Expansion Draft was a factor in the Schenn trade, then the player it allowed them to protect was Laughton. That makes the Forward usage this year even worse.

What's beyond inexcusable? Incompetent? Laughable?

 

[mdm815]

Schenn wasn’t traded to protect Laughton, it was an additional upside to the move, not the primary motivator.

 

[Deadpool8812]

The PK literally does everything you aren't supposed to do while killing a penalty.

 

[deadhead]

Well, after looking at Corsica, and the talent we had available, I'm not sure if Lappy is doing a bad job.
There's something weird going on, we're among the best at xGA, solid in Corsi, yet at the bottom in actual goals allowed.
Now our goalies are the worst in the league in S% on the PK, but average to above average 5x5.
And the PK played very well against the Penguins, the best PP in the league during the regular season.
(Couts, Read, Lehtera, Filppula at forward, Provorov, Gudas, MacDonald, Manning on defense)

Thoughts
1) we 're not as good as Corsica suggests, but not nearly as bad as our GA says.
2) the goalies are bad, but are also left out to dry too much, PK demands more of a goalie, our 5x5 defense doesn't give up a lot of good shots and they do clear rebounds, on the PK good shots are inevitable, the goalies have to stop their share.
3) the team lacks the talent on the bottom six to man a solid PK, it improved with Read and Lehtera toward the end of the year, but that's not a solution.

xGA/60 - regular season
Giroux 4.67
Simmonds 5.03
Read 5.04
Laughton 5.86
Raffl 6.40
Couts 6.41
Lehtera 6.84
Leier 7.73
Filppula 8.60

Gudas 5.69
MacDonald 6.07
Provorov 6.83
Manning 6.92
Hagg 7.39

 

[Striiker]

I'm not sure why you want a black and white answer to a question that none of us have 100% of the answer to. As far as the four years things go I'm sure people at the beginning were willing to give him a leash to see if he could turn it around. I don't care to spend my time looking through old posts but I'm sure people weren't complaining about him after six months of it falling off.

You need time to collect data and accurately analyze a situation.

Boiling it down to some stupid yes or no answer is ridiculous.

It's really simple to answer a black and white question with a black and white answer. The answer is "no", people weren't complaining about Lappy for the last four years like they were this year.

Nothing ridiculous with giving a simple answer... unless I ask it of someone who doesn't properly read posts, apparently. But that's my fault, I expected too much from you.

 

[Rebels57]

I was going for the whole "use one single example to make complete judgement" thing, but if we're instead going for the magnitude argument then I'd point out that the negative impact of sticking with Lappy is easily dwarfed by the positive impact of the teams drafting and developing.

Either way, keeping Lappy isn't an egregious enough error to mistrust the GM.

It's also dishonest to pretend that this has been a clear problem for 4 years when this Lappy hate is a more recent occurrence. If it was so obvious, why was it not brought up more before? It was only this past year that the issue became commonly discussed. The numbers haven't been good, but that's also been partly a roster problem... we can only guess how much of the blame belongs to each side. Hextall also acknowledged it being an issue, seeing as he pointed out that he saw enough positive changes at the end of the year to believe it was going to improve next year, implying that it is a concern of his and he knows it needs to change if it doesn't improve.

Some of us have been criticizing Lappy for years around here. I know my concerns with his performance go back to last the 16-17 season. I can't remember beyond that.

From the 14-15 season through the end of the 17-18 season, the Flyers PK under Lappy ranks 29th in the NHL over a 328 game sample.

NHL.com - Stats

No amount of roster problems can account for how bad their PK has been. Hextall acknowledged it needed to improve last summer too. Throwing away the previous 300 plus games of poor performance and pointing to a small improvement in the last handful as an indication that the PK should improve next season without major systematic changes is an extremely flawed way of thinking.

The more likely scenario as for why Lappy is being kept is that Hextall and Hakstol like Lappy on a personal level and can't separate that and make a smart decision that's best for their business.

 

[Striiker]

The more likely scenario as for why Lappy is being kept is that Hextall and Hakstol like Lappy on a personal level and can't separate that and make a smart decision that's best for their business.

Oh boy... again we're back to one of the weakest theories I've seen on here...

And when you say "most likely scenario" you really mean "what I'm choosing to believe".

There's a whole bunch of more likely excuses than that, but ok.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Schenn wasn’t traded to protect Laughton, it was an additional upside to the move, not the primary motivator.

It doesn't have to be the primary motivator. No one ever said it was.

If it was a factor, there had to be a reason for it to be one. It can not be a factor at all. But it can't be a factor and be pointless.

 

[Rebels57]

On Laperriere and the PK, I believe there are parallel discussions on the on-ice performance and the semantics. The PK has been awful for a couple of seasons though my occasional viewing finds it hard to put my finger on the main problem. Dead has posted stats on the poor PK Sv%, and that has been a factor. An aggressive PK was tried a few years back, with Laviolette IIRC, and it was pretty bad, too. Bottom line: something has to change but I don't know what so I have to muffle my criticism of the PK coach.

The semantic argument is a different matter. This is voiced by the many who say that in the real world, you keep your job when you have success. I can't disagree with this to show that the team is committed to winning.

Thus, a long winded way of saying i would be in agreement with firing Laperriere but don't have a clue what or who would constitute an improvement.

The Flyers PK under Laviolette ranked 15th in the NHL over 246 games. Significantly better than these past 4 years with goaltending that was just as suspect for the most part.
NHL.com - Stats

 

[Rebels57]

Oh boy... again we're back to one of the weakest theories I've seen on here...

And when you say "most likely scenario" you really mean "what I'm choosing to believe".

There's a whole bunch of more likely excuses than that, but ok.

You ignored the rest of my post and just focused on an opinion that you disagree with..

What are the "whole bunch of more likely excuses than that" in your opinion?

Keep in mind i've already shown that there's too much of a sample size to expect a handful of games at the end of the season to be a sign of improvement going forward..

Edit: to be honest it doesn't matter WHY he is still here running the PK. The fact is that he SHOULDNT be.

 

[Ruck Over]

If the Expansion Draft was a factor in the Schenn trade, then the player it allowed them to protect was Laughton. That makes the Forward usage this year even worse.

What's beyond inexcusable? Incompetent? Laughable?

Coming to this tidbit late. But the premise doesn't even make sense. The expansion draft was held before the entry draft. The trade could not have impacted the Flyers in the protection list. I may be reading this incorrect though.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

The expansion draft had nothing to do with the Schenn trade. The Flyers protected Schenn in the expansion draft. It took place between the 18th-20th & was officially announced to the public on the 21st. Schenn was traded on the 23rd.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Coming to this tidbit late. But the premise doesn't even make sense. The expansion draft was held before the entry draft. The trade could not have impacted the Flyers in the protection list. I may be reading this incorrect though.

The expansion draft had nothing to do with the Schenn trade. The Flyers protected Schenn in the expansion draft. It took place between the 18th-20th & was officially announced to the public on the 21st. Schenn was traded on the 23rd.

You're both completely right. I responded to nonsense and made it worse. This is why the best place to hide something from me is directly in front of my face.

 

[Deadpool8812]

It doesn't have to be the primary motivator. No one ever said it was.

If it was a factor, there had to be a reason for it to be one. It can not be a factor at all. But it can't be a factor and be pointless.

Huh? The expansion draft was held before the Schenn trade. Both Schenn and Laughton were protected

 

[Rebels57]

If the Schenn trade did happen before the Expansion Draft, we could have protected Bellemare and Vegas wouldn't be 3 wins away from a championship.

 

[Ruck Over]

If the Schenn trade did happen before the Expansion Draft, we could have protected Bellemare and Vegas wouldn't be 3 wins away from a championship.

But Vegas still traded for Ryan Reaves. Dude, you have such a myopic look on life. Get a new slant!

 

[Striiker]

You ignored the rest of my post and just focused on an opinion that you disagree with..

What are the "whole bunch of more likely excuses than that" in your opinion?

Keep in mind i've already shown that there's too much of a sample size to expect a handful of games at the end of the season to be a sign of improvement going forward..

I can go back to that if you want, but I was just mesmerized by this specific part of the post because it was so insane.

Let's also keep in mind that you specifically said "The most likely scenario"... aka you think this is more likely than any other possibility.

if I had to come up with other guesses for why he hasn't been fired yet, that I don't necessarily believe, but are still more likely than "they like his personality"....

- Hextall is going to change up the coaching staff, without firing Lappy
- Hextall thinks the PK personnel has been real problem, not the PK coach
- Hextall thinks the goaltending has been the biggest problem
- Hextall thinks personnel was the problem in the first couple of years and now goaltending was the problem this year
- Hextall thinks Lappy has been bad but is convinced there is something new they're going to try next year
- Hextall thinks Lappy has been bad but is just too patient with him
- Hextall thinks Lappy is a good PK coach
- Hakstol thinks Lappy is good and Hextall lets the head coach decide the rest of coaching staff
-And then take each of the other possibilities, pretend Hakstol thinks them instead of Hextall, and then add the same flaw of how Hextall just lets Hakstol do as he wants as the head coach


Do I need to keep going?

There's a bunch of possibilities, some possible, some extremely unlikely, but all far more plausible than what you said...