2018-19 Roster Talk: Part One

[Tripod]

I think with MacDonald getting the full time A he's not likely to be going anywhere for the rest of his contract (unfortunately).

Wait...did that actually happen?

 

[deadhead]

I'm sure Hakstol is tied to Hagg because of their ND ties? Their Western Canadian ties? Their . . .
Hard to imagine why Hakstol would consider Hagg a "favorite."

In fact, that raises an interesting question, why wasn't Knight, a ND boy, promoted to the roster last year?

 

[Lindberg]

Wait...did that actually happen?

I saw someone mention this but I can't remember where but it shouldn't surprise anyone since Filp left and he was a part time assistant captain.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

"3rd line"?????????????

Our 3rd and 4th defensemen in TOI/GP?

Hakstol doesn't see them as they truly are... garbage #7s, at BEST.

we might not agree very often... but this time we def do.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

No, Sanheims minutes are determined by Hakstol. And unfortunately Hakstol doesn't determine them based on quality of play or effectiveness... it's exclusively favoritism and his obsession with grindy garbage.

He's proven that quality of play has nothing to do with where you play in the lineup. Hagg, Mac, Manning, Filppula, Lehtera, etc all prove that.

Sanheim CLEARLY outplayed multiple trash defensemen last year, yet played less than them. That's just a fact.

wasnt it released that a injured Hagg played over a healthy Sanheim by Haktard

 

[flyersfan187]

Gudas had a bad season last year so I don't blame Hak for reducing his minutes but Sanheim shown a ton of potential and needed to be playing more. Hagg on the other hand could be a great shut down d-man in the future if he actually learned how to do an outlet pass and not to pinch as often when he shouldn't.

 

[Striiker]

wasnt it released that a injured Hagg played over a healthy Sanheim by Haktard

In the elimination games of the playoffs.

 

[Striiker]

I'm sure Hakstol is tied to Hagg because of their ND ties? Their Western Canadian ties? Their . . .
Hard to imagine why Hakstol would consider Hagg a "favorite."

In fact, that raises an interesting question, why wasn't Knight, a ND boy, promoted to the roster last year?

Because Hakstol is one of these hockey dinosaurs who is obsessed with hitting and grinding.

So he overvalued a defensemen who is horrible in all 3 zones.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Hagg was by far the worst of the three.

Not even debatable.

Not sure why you think you can list flaws of other players (and create most of them out of thin air) while not mentioning that Hagg has his own flaws, which are even worse. It makes no sense. Nobody is falling for this.

Gudas was not the same dman last year especially after his incredibly stupid suspension. I dont think he played materially better than Hagg. I think there was something behind the scenes with Sanheim because his talent level is obvious and although I do agree with dh that he played soft and was out of position plenty it wasn't severe enough for the benching and banishment. The "Hak doesn't like him for no reason" line of argument is really an unlikely case.

 

[Striiker]

Gudas was not the same dman last year especially after his incredibly stupid suspension. I dont think he played materially better than Hagg. I think there was something behind the scenes with Sanheim because his talent level is obvious and although I do agree with dh that he played soft and was out of position plenty it wasn't severe enough for the benching and banishment. The "Hak doesn't like him for no reason" line of argument is really an unlikely case.

Gudas wasn't as good as before, but he was still easily better than Hagg. And most of his struggles were after being paired with Manning.

Sanheim just got the idiotic treatment young players get under Hakstol, unless they're big and strong. He doesn't like skill. He likes physicality. So TK, Ghost, and Sanheim get benched, while Hagg is bulletproof. Patrick and Provorov escape that fate because they're big boys.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Gudas had a bad season last year so I don't blame Hak for reducing his minutes but Sanheim shown a ton of potential and needed to be playing more. Hagg on the other hand could be a great shut down d-man in the future if he actually learned how to do an outlet pass and not to pinch as often when he shouldn't.

We would be very lucky for Hagg to develop into a "great" shut down dman. I think his talent level is more like a perfectly serviceable 6/7 dman.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The rational argument in favor of Sanheim has never been "Hakstol doesn't like him." It's that there is a bias toward a certain play and player style, especially as it relates to mistakes. Everyone has biases. His are just particularly suboptimal for the modern game in these cases.

It's the Kris Russell debate playing out over and over again in damn near every NHL city.

 

[deadhead]

Listening to Hextall talk about Sanheim, he's still in the same "prove it" stage as Myers.
Which suggests that what ever unhappiness there is with Sanheim, it's a FO thing, not just a HC thing.

This doesn't mean Hextall is looking to dump him, rather, as Ron keeps saying, some players just need longer to mature, both on and off the ice.
If there are real issues, we'll read about them a few weeks after the trade.

 

[Striiker]

Nobody said Sanheim is a finished product. He’s not.

But he’s clearly better than Hagg. And it’s not close.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Gudas wasn't as good as before, but he was still easily better than Hagg. And most of his struggles were after being paired with Manning.

Sanheim just got the idiotic treatment young players get under Hakstol, unless they're big and strong. He doesn't like skill. He likes physicality. So TK, Ghost, and Sanheim get benched, while Hagg is bulletproof. Patrick and Provorov escape that fate because they're big boys.

I just don't agree on Gudas last year but do think he could potentially return to form.

I think your Hak "doesnt like skill" explanation is really weak bordering on the type of silly explanation I would expect to see on the Coyotes board. Tk and ghost deserved to be benched.

 

[deadhead]

The rational argument in favor of Sanheim has never been "Hakstol doesn't like him." It's that there is a bias toward a certain play and player style, especially as it relates to mistakes. Everyone has biases. His are just particularly suboptimal for the modern game in these cases.

The Flyers were 2nd in goals by defensemen, and had 54 defensemen in the top 62 in PP/60 5x5: Ghost 17th, Manning 31st, Provorov 35th, MacDonald 53rd, Gudas 62nd. Given the talent of Manning, MacDonald and Gudas, that's obviously due to an aggressive scheme.
But the flip side is if defensemen are going to be aggressive on offense, they also must be responsible.

Notice Manning is gone? Good enough for the Blackhawks to pay $2.25M but not for Hextall to even approach about an extension.
I think because as much as they liked his offense, they basically concluded he wasn't coachable, the brain farts were who he was, not resistance to coaching.

I don't think they're picking on Sanheim any more than they were picking on Ghost, rather, if you're going to be a major offensive force as a defenseman, you have to know how to do it responsibly, Ghost learned and had his best year, playing two way hockey.
If Sanheim learns, his minutes will go up, if he doesn't, he'll be shipped out of town in 2-3 years.

 

[Lindberg]

Manning got paid. He'll be comfortable now the rest of his life. Adios Boxcar!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The Flyers were 2nd in goals by defensemen, and had 54 defensemen in the top 62 in PP/60 5x5: Ghost 17th, Manning 31st, Provorov 35th, MacDonald 53rd, Gudas 62nd. Given the talent of Manning, MacDonald and Gudas, that's obviously due to an aggressive scheme.
But the flip side is if defensemen are going to be aggressive on offense, they also must be responsible.

Notice Manning is gone? Good enough for the Blackhawks to pay $2.25M but not for Hextall to even approach about an extension.
I think because as much as they liked his offense, they basically concluded he wasn't coachable, the brain farts were who he was, not resistance to coaching.

I don't think they're picking on Sanheim any more than they were picking on Ghost, rather, if you're going to be a major offensive force as a defenseman, you have to know how to do it responsibly, Ghost learned and had his best year, playing two way hockey.
If Sanheim learns, his minutes will go up, if he doesn't, he'll be shipped out of town in 2-3 years.

There's so much we're just never going to agree on, but I'll try to focus on the at least arguable stuff rather than arguing about issues where we'll never sway the other.

As far as Sanheim not being treated more harshly than Gostisbehere, rookie ice time does not agree with you. Now I will say that I think we could draw a pretty clear parallel if Gostisbehere did not score so many Points essentially right away. You'll say Points are results, I'll say it's treating the result instead of the cause, etc.

RE:Manning, TOI says hell no.

 

[Striiker]

I just don't agree on Gudas last year but do think he could potentially return to form.

I think your Hak "doesnt like skill" explanation is really weak bordering on the type of silly explanation I would expect to see on the Coyotes board. Tk and ghost deserved to be benched.

No they didn’t.

 

[Lindberg]

It still boggles my mind that Hextall was going to send Ghost back down but Ghost absolutely refused to let him do so.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Hakstol likes skill as long as that player doesn't get stricken by the PDO-gods.

 

[deadhead]

There's so much we're just never going to agree on, but I'll try to focus on the at least arguable stuff rather than arguing about issues where we'll never sway the other.

As far as Sanheim not being treated more harshly than Gostisbehere, rookie ice time does not agree with you. Now I will say that I think we could draw a pretty clear parallel if Gostisbehere did not score so many Points essentially right away. You'll say Points are results, I'll say it's treating the result instead of the cause, etc.

RE:Manning, TOI says hell no.

Sanheim had the same issue as Lindblom, he struggled to finish, which is normal for a lot of rookies, the game often slows down their second season.
The difference is that Lindblom was a more polished all around player, so he was doing good things even when the puck didn't go in the net for him.

Ghost, before his injury, was greased lightning, the defensive equivalent of Gaudreau, Sanheim isn't nearly that skilled, his upside is when his body fills out and he can play big at both ends of the ice. Ghost was also 22, and even though he sat much of the year in the AHL, got to see the pro game close up.
I'm curious to see if Ghost can regain some of that burst this year, two years from his injury, combine that with his maturation as a player and he could take it up another notch.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Explain

It still boggles my mind that Hextall was going to send Ghost back down but Ghost absolutely refused to let him do so.

 

[Lindberg]

Explain

Explain what? That Hextall was going to send Ghost down after Streit came back? That's pretty well public knowledge.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Explain what? That Hextall was going to send Ghost down after Streit came back? That's pretty well public knowledge.

Where?