2018-19 Regular Season Thread

[Beef Invictus]

We don't need elite, a lot of SC winners have won with a group of six or so forwards scoring between 40-50 ES points.
So if you have two top lines, neither has to be top 5, if both are top 20-30.
And we certainly have the talent to field 2, and probably 3 lines in the top 30 or so down the road.

As Nashville shows, you can win with 4 top defensemen, and we have a shot at that as well.

A team with 9 solid forwards and 4 solid defensemen doesn't need a superstar or even a Vezina caliber goalie, just a good enough goalie to keep them in games and allow their depth to wear down teams with 1 elite line but questionable depth.

Your plan also requires a good coach and Hakstol isn't one of those.


What teams have won with forwards topping out at 50 points? Please list them. You make it sound common.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Your plan also requires a good coach and Hakstol isn't one of those.


What teams have won with forwards topping out at 50 points? Please list them. You make it sound common.

17-18 Capitals: Four players over 50 points.
16-17 Penguins: Five players over 50 points.
15-16 Penguins: Five players over 50 points.
14-15 Blackhawks: Four Players over 50 points.
13-14 Kings: One player over 50 points (1 at 50).
12-13 Blackhawks: Three players over 50 PPG pace (work stoppage season)
11-12 Kings: Three players over 50 points
10-11 Bruins: Four players over 50 points.
09-10 Blackhawks: Five players over 50 points.

I'm too lazy to go back and check how many d-men were include but weird that it looks like there isn't one single team that has won like that recently.

 

[deadhead]

Your plan also requires a good coach and Hakstol isn't one of those.
What teams have won with forwards topping out at 50 points? Please list them. You make it sound common.

ES points, not points. I treat PP points as a unit.
Reason is it doesn't matter who scores on the PP, rather, whether the team scores on the PP.
[pp goals/league average]
2014-15 Blackhawks: Toews 46, Kane 42, Hossa 43, Saad 42 - only players over 40 [46/47]
2013-14 Kings: Kopitar 47, Williams 36, Carter 35 [43/48]
2011-12 Kings: Kopitar 46, Williams 40, Brown 35 [49/47]
2010-11 Bruins: Krejci 50, Lucic 48, Horton 45, Bergeron 43, Marchand 32, Recchi 30 [43/52]
2009-10 Blackhawks: Kane 58, Keith 48, Sharp 47, Toews 42, Hossa 38, Ladd 37 [52/56]
2006-07 Anaheim: Selanne 46, MacDonald 45, Kunitz 40, Niedermayer 35 [89/70]
2005-06 Carolina: Staal 56, Williams 45, Stillman 42, Cole, 41, Brind'Amour 30, Cullen 30 [95/85]

Caps, Penguins, and Blackhawks in the strike season were the only teams with exceptional ES scorers (60+)
Note the Flyers had two last year and squeezed into the playoffs.
Scoring depth, good defense and good goaltending are all just as, or more important, than one or two elite forwards.

 

[Beef Invictus]

ES points, not points. I treat PP points as a unit.
Reason is it doesn't matter who scores on the PP, rather, whether the team scores on the PP.
[pp goals/league average]
2014-15 Blackhawks: Toews 46, Kane 42, Hossa 43, Saad 42 - only players over 40 [46/47]
2013-14 Kings: Kopitar 47, Williams 36, Carter 35 [43/48]
2011-12 Kings: Kopitar 46, Williams 40, Brown 35 [49/47]
2010-11 Bruins: Krejci 50, Lucic 48, Horton 45, Bergeron 43, Marchand 32, Recchi 30 [43/52]
2009-10 Blackhawks: Kane 58, Keith 48, Sharp 47, Toews 42, Hossa 38, Ladd 37 [52/56]
2006-07 Anaheim: Selanne 46, MacDonald 45, Kunitz 40, Niedermayer 35 [89/70]
2005-06 Carolina: Staal 56, Williams 45, Stillman 42, Cole, 41, Brind'Amour 30, Cullen 30 [95/85]

Caps, Penguins, and Blackhawks in the strike season were the only teams with exceptional ES scorers (60+)
Note the Flyers had two last year and squeezed into the playoffs.
Scoring depth, good defense and good goaltending are all just as, or more important, than one or two elite forwards.

Boy howdy this is new levels of nonsensical cherrypicking.

You know what kills ES production? A system contrary to high quality offensive pressure. You want more ES production? Then that means you want a new coach.

 

[deadhead]

Except the Flyers are among the better ES scoring teams in the league.
One can always hypothesize a theoretical coach who can walk on water and perform miracles.

EVGF
2018-19: 49 - 6th
2017-18: 196 - 9th [Schenn traded]
2016-17: 154 - 23rd
2015-16: 155 - 22nd
2014-15: 149 - 25th Berube [Hartnell traded]
2013-14: 167 - 12th Berube
2012-13: 93 - 17th
2011-12: 188 - 6th
2010-11: 194 - 1st
2009-10: 158 - 20th Stevens/Lavi
2008-09: 173 - 8th Stevens
2007-08: 148 - 19th

 

[BernieParent]

Flyers are two points out of last in the conference and three teams below them have 2 or 3 games on them still.

Year 5 of Hextall. This team has not gotten better. Year 4 of Hakstol. Still the same **** game in and game out. If you think they don’t take the brunt of the blame for this mess that is iced every game, you’re just blind.

Flyers did what every team is moving away from now. Trying to “retool” while staying competitive. You end up with middle teen picks and missing elite talent through the pipeline. 5 years now. Just let that sink in. And I still see some suggest selling our pieces like Voracek/Giroux and others. Yup, let’s just delay the competitive spirit of this team even further. Great ****ing idea.

Call me old-fashioned (or just plain old) but I am proud that the Flyers didn't pull a tank job. Still, they lucked into the 2nd overall (Patrick) , "earned" the 7th overall (Provorov), and made some nice choices with later 1sr-round picks.

 

[bauer]

bottoming out isn't the answer either. then you end up sucking for a decade and have a losing culture that is very, very hard to get out of. see: Edmonton and Buffalo.

you need a combination of hitting on draft picks and really good, smart management.

i don't think it's the players. on paper this team has tons of skill. they may not be a serious contender yet, but they should be far better than a .500 team.

anyone who watches the games can clearly see the system they are forced to play is very flawed and is clearly holding many of the players back.

 

[Magua]

Edmonton and Buffalo don’t have a losing culture. They have incredibly incompetent front offices and coaching. Some of the worst in the league. That is what festers at every level of an organization and carries that losing stench. The history of tanking hockey teams has far more competent success stories than those two.

Their young stars are the least of their problems. The irony is the Flyers have made every decision with the idea of their self-proclaimed “winning culture” being tantamount. Does this look like a winning culture? It looks anything but; it looks like.........incompetence (though not to Buffalo or Edmonton’s extent). They didn’t tank — one might say they winning cultured their way into losing — but they got their young talent at the top, and they kept their top veteran talent. Talent isn’t the issue with this team. They got there in the end. The issue now is they can’t come to terms with they have no winning culture, much as that term can be misleading.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Edmonton and Buffalo don’t have a losing culture. They have incredibly incompetent front offices and coaching. Some of the worst in the league. That is what festers at every level of an organization and carries that losing stench. The history of tanking hockey teams has far more competent success stories than those two.

Their young stars are the least of their problems. The irony is the Flyers have made every decision with the idea of their self-proclaimed “winning culture” being tantamount. Does this look like a winning culture? It looks anything but; it looks like.........incompetence (though not to Buffalo or Edmonton’s extent). They didn’t tank — one might say they winning cultured their way into losing — but they got their young talent at the top, and they kept their top veteran talent. Talent isn’t the issue with this team. They got there in the end. The issue now is they can’t come to terms with they have no winning culture, much as that term can be misleading.

I mean a lot of these teams add an abundance of try-hards, veterans, gritty, winners, etc. whichever hockeyguy adjective you want to add in there & often times they’re the problem as they’re not any good &/or past their expiration date. Taylor Hall, Jordan Eberle, etc. weren’t the problem or even a problem in Edmonton but they were made out to be & look at how great that’s turned out for them.

It’s not McDavid’s or Draisaitl’s fault Chiarelli has continued the awful trend of mismanagement there in Edmonton just like it wasn’t the previous core guys fault.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Edmonton and Buffalo don’t have a losing culture. They have incredibly incompetent front offices and coaching. Some of the worst in the league. That is what festers at every level of an organization and carries that losing stench. The history of tanking hockey teams has far more competent success stories than those two.

Their young stars are the least of their problems. The irony is the Flyers have made every decision with the idea of their self-proclaimed “winning culture” being tantamount. Does this look like a winning culture? It looks anything but; it looks like.........incompetence (though not to Buffalo or Edmonton’s extent). They didn’t tank — one might say they winning cultured their way into losing — but they got their young talent at the top, and they kept their top veteran talent. Talent isn’t the issue with this team. They got there in the end. The issue now is they can’t come to terms with they have no winning culture, much as that term can be misleading.

Is that why we went after ex oilers such as VDV, Schultz or Gordon?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Is that why we went after ex oilers such as VDV, Schultz or Gordon?

They brought the stank with them.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Season in nutshell.

 

[Oskar Man]

Season in nutshell.

I don't see the "Post too many mindless Gifs" stage anywhere. You sure that's accurate?

 

[BritainStix]

Still not watching this team until Hak is fired. They are a painfully boring team and have been for years.

But the decision to keep him at the helm just shits all over the fans. Ive got better things to do that spend my time watching an organisation that couldnt give two shits about the fan base.

Preach patience all you want. We have been patient. Now is the time to give something back to us. Exciting hockey would be a start

 

[Curufinwe]

Is that why we went after ex oilers such as VDV, Schultz or Gordon?

Those cheap 4th liners and bottom pair dmen who left years ago are definitely why the 18-19 Flyers are struggling.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Those cheap 4th liners and bottom pair dmen who left years ago are definitely why the 18-19 Flyers are struggling.

They were below replacement level players not 4th liners. If you saddle your top talent with worst there is to offer you hurt their chances of winning. Been there with Schultz, Manning now Andy Mac. Went from VDV, Gordon to Torgo. Hextall ain't doing this team any favors.

 

[Rebels57]

They were below replacement level players not 4th liners. If you saddle your top talent with worst there is to offer you hurt their chances of winning. Been there with Schultz, Manning now Andy Mac. Went from VDV, Gordon to Torgo. Hextall ain't doing this team any favors.

Depends, do you like league worst special teams?

 

[Curufinwe]

Every team's fans thinks their 4th liners are the worst in the league.

 

[Here4ThaLids]

Apologies if this has been posted in another thread and I couldn't find it, but here's the latest Flyers' TV piece with focus on Coots and eventually The Helmet:



Two notes from me:

1. Holmer says they were inclined to take one of two defensemen before Coots fell (new info for me). I'd imagine one was Hamilton, who had been linked with the Flyers in the weeks leading up to the draft. Who do you think was the other choice? Brodin? Other first-round D still on the board: Siemens, R. Murphy, Oleksiak, Beaulieu, Klefbom, C. Murphy, Morrow, Percy. A rough first round, we made out like bandits.

2. Check out those gif-able dance moves from Konecny! [Edit: @ 11:25]

 

[deadhead]

Because they are, or they wouldn't be 4th liners!

It's hard to field 9 solid forwards with two way skills, 3rd line guys are usually compromises.
By the time you get to the 10th to 12th player on the roster, you're happy to have competent role players.
And then once injuries happen you're looking at 13th/14th forwards.

To have the depth to put talented players on the 4th line for a couple years (b/c after that you have to promote, trade or watch them walk) is a great luxury, one that few NHL teams possess.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Every team's fans thinks their 4th liners are the worst in the league.

When we had VDV, we actually had the poopcrown for individual effort. Lehtorgo has had a surge this year, along with Wiesebiscuit, so we definitely don't have the worst 4th line this year.

The roster simply isn't as bad as people like to claim.

 

[FLYguy3911]

1. Holmer says they were inclined to take one of two defensemen before Coots fell (new info for me). I'd imagine one was Hamilton, who had been linked with the Flyers in the weeks leading up to the draft. Who do you think was the other choice? Brodin? Other first-round D still on the board: Siemens, R. Murphy, Oleksiak, Beaulieu, Klefbom, C. Murphy, Morrow, Percy. A rough first round, we made out like bandits.

The popular rumor was Siemens. I would have lost my shit if they took him over Hamilton.

 

[bauer]

Edmonton and Buffalo don’t have a losing culture. They have incredibly incompetent front offices and coaching. Some of the worst in the league. That is what festers at every level of an organization and carries that losing stench. The history of tanking hockey teams has far more competent success stories than those two.

Their young stars are the least of their problems. The irony is the Flyers have made every decision with the idea of their self-proclaimed “winning culture” being tantamount. Does this look like a winning culture? It looks anything but; it looks like.........incompetence (though not to Buffalo or Edmonton’s extent). They didn’t tank — one might say they winning cultured their way into losing — but they got their young talent at the top, and they kept their top veteran talent. Talent isn’t the issue with this team. They got there in the end. The issue now is they can’t come to terms with they have no winning culture, much as that term can be misleading.

they absolutely do. and both teams have acknowledged it. their incompetent front offices have certainly been a major factor, but there absolutely are teams that have become numb to losing.

 

[bauer]

Edmonton Oilers look to abandon decade-old culture of expecting to lose: ‘That definitely needs to change’

“We’ve just got to change the whole culture in the Oilers room,” McDavid said. “For so many years now, we’ve had that expecting-to-lose kind of mentality going in. You know; ‘Oh, we’re lucky if we get this one,’ kind of thing. And we’ve got to start changing our view on that. You know, take pride in who we are and what we’re about. That definitely needs to change.”

https://www.tsn.ca/sabres-gm-we-have-a-losing-culture-here-1.1054220

"Right now we have a losing culture here," (Sabres GM) Botterill said.

 

[deadhead]

They were below replacement level players not 4th liners. If you saddle your top talent with worst there is to offer you hurt their chances of winning. Been there with Schultz, Manning now Andy Mac. Went from VDV, Gordon to Torgo. Hextall ain't doing this team any favors.

It's called a rebuild.

Hextall traded a 3rd for Mrazek last year - that's the only trade in four years where he lost a net draft pick.
JVR was the first major FA signing, the others were depth or short-term (Weise, MDZ, Schultz, PEB, etc)
Manning, VdV, Cousins, Leier were organization scrubs.

The consistent theme the last four years was to add prospects and draft picks and build up one of the worst talent pipelines in the NHL.

Now the process is starting to bear fruit.
It's frustrating, mostly because Holmgren refused to blow it up after 2012-13.