2018-19 Blackhawks Roster Part 3

[RememberTheRoar]

I still think the most obvious answer is the best answer for next season’s lineup. Start with big guy-Toews-Kane and go from there.

The big guy-Toews-Kane formula has played a key role in three Stanley Cups, albeit Saad played the big guy role in the third cup.

Big guy-Toews-Kane was one of the foundational building blocks that revived this franchise. Now in need of a mini revival, Q should go back to that same basic foundational building block.

A collection of Schmaltz, DeBrincat, Saad, and Anisimov should be able to provide more enough secondary scoring to make the lineup work.

All this being said, I’m more than okay with Hayden being that big guy for Toews and Kane.

Hayden-Toews-Kane
DeBrincat-Schmaltz-Anisimov (70%+ O ZSR line)
Saad-Kruger-Kunitz (heavy d-zone start shutdown line)
Kahun-Ejdsell-Sikura (bumslayer line)

Kampf can swap in for Kruger or Ejdsell if he beats out either in camp.

 

[Hawkaholic]

The big guy-Toews-Kane formula has played a key role in three Stanley Cups.

It did?

 

[RememberTheRoar]

It did?

Yes, those lines played key roles in those cup runs.

10 - Buff-Toews-Kane (143 mins together, 6 goals, 60% CF)

13 - Bickell-Toews-Kane (73 mins together, 9 goals, 56% CF. Additionally, Toews and Hossa played 195 mins together w/o Kane that playoffs, Toews and Kane played 140 minutes together w/o Hossa — Toews/Hossa produced 7 goals while Toews/Kane produced 10)

15 - Saad-Toews-Kane (52 mins together, 3 goals, 50% CF. Small sample, but was formed in the WCF against Anaheim, and played in the SCF together)

 

[Pez68]

I still think the most obvious answer is the best answer for next season’s lineup. Start with big guy-Toews-Kane and go from there.

The big guy-Toews-Kane formula has played a key role in three Stanley Cups, albeit Saad played the big guy role in the third cup.

Big guy-Toews-Kane was one of the foundational building blocks that revived this franchise. Now in need of a mini revival, Q should go back to that same basic foundational building block.

A collection of Schmaltz, DeBrincat, Saad, and Anisimov should be able to provide more enough secondary scoring to make the lineup work.

All this being said, I’m more than okay with Hayden being that big guy for Toews and Kane.

Hayden-Toews-Kane
DeBrincat-Schmaltz-Anisimov (70%+ O ZSR line)
Saad-Kruger-Kunitz (heavy d-zone start shutdown line)
Kahun-Ejdsell-Sikura (bumslayer line)

Kampf can swap in for Kruger or Ejdsell if he beats out either in camp.

Saad basically playing 4th line minutes? Meh. Hawks need much, much more out of him.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

Saad basically playing 4th line minutes? Meh. Hawks need much, much more out of him.

How’s he basically playing 4th line minutes? When Hossa did the same thing two years ago, he averaged 17:16 per game, 14 seconds less than Saad logged last season.

Saad would be on your top PK unit, and on your second PP unit.

If it’s not good enough, just swap he and Anisimov. I was just trying to improve the shutdown line so it’s not just a dump-in line.

 

[BK]

I would start we these lines then go from there. Each line has size and speed with the 4th line being defensive line.

I like Hayden or VE on the Kane line as they both know how to go to the net and have a good shot.

20-19-12
40-8-88
DK-15-95
Kunitz-Kruger-Kampf/VE

 

[RememberTheRoar]

I would start we these lines then go from there. Each line has size and speed with the 4th line being defensive line.

I like Hayden or VE on the Kane line as they both know how to go to the net and have a good shot.

20-19-12
40-8-88
DK-15-95
Kunitz-Kruger-Kampf/VE

I’d much rather do this than all those Saad-Schmaltz-Kane lines

I basically want one of two things. A set DeBrincat-Toews-Saad line, and if I can’t have that I want a set Hayden-Toews-Kane line

I think both can be very effective top lines, and can put everybody in their best positions to perform, while utilizing Kane’s gift of elevating lesser player and make his line effective even with a Hayden or Ejdsell.

Going Saad-Schmaltz-Kane eliminates all that

 

[BobbyJet]

Hayden is such a hard working and smart player, he truly will surprise a lot of people if Q can at least put him in a Bickell role and get him some top 6 minutes here.

A common theme: "If Q"
And he has proven time and time again, that he won't.

Hayden may not be ready for a top 6 role quite yet and he may need to be eased into one. He will never dazzle but character can go a long way in this league when a player has the size, the will and the sense to go to the net. I agree about his good potential.

 

[ClydeLee]

A common theme: "If Q"
And he has proven time and time again, that he won't.

He wont do what hes done, clearly hence the example given, numerous times before?

I get the lash out view but its hilarious when it gets to a point of bashing him for not doing what he always does. Like a week ago someone claimed Kruger wont get used by Q in the way Kruger used to play because Q doesnt use players that way... criticism can be used to make sense or just sound like nonsensical ramblings.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

A common theme: "If Q"
And he has proven time and time again, that he won't.

Hayden may not be ready for a top 6 role quite yet and he may need to be eased into one. He will never dazzle but character can go a long way in this league when a player has the size, the will and the sense to go to the net. I agree about his good potential.

Putting him with Kane and whichever center i think is the best possible landing spot for him.

He won’t need to dazzle, and can make the line effective by just playing smart and doing dirty work. Kane will naturally elevate him, and Hayden won’t be overwhelmed by feeling like he has to put up top-6 numbers

 

[BobbyJet]

He wont do what hes done, clearly hence the example given, numerous times before?

I get the lash out view but its hilarious when it gets to a point of bashing him for not doing what he always does. Like a week ago someone claimed Kruger wont get used by Q in the way Kruger used to play because Q doesnt use players that way... criticism can be used to make sense or just sound like nonsensical ramblings.

It's obviously a huge part of a head coaches function to utilize his personnel effectively. That aspect of Q's coaching has had some major lapses. Even when the team was winning, his utilization and roster choices had quite a few folks here scratching their heads.
Roll forward to 2018-19. It's far more likely that bad decisions will haunt this team.

 

[ello]

Putting him with Kane and whichever center i think is the best possible landing spot for him.

He won’t need to dazzle, and can make the line effective by just playing smart and doing dirty work. Kane will naturally elevate him, and Hayden won’t be overwhelmed by feeling like he has to put up top-6 numbers

Honest question: when has Kane really singlehandedly elevated a linemate beyond their career averages?

Kane is absolutely a world class offensive talent, but from what I can recall even in season he’s had a constant flow of wingers (barring Panarin who is a talent of his own right), and I think that the expectation that being paired up with Kane is an ideal landing spot that should maximize a players value is unfair to both the player in question and to Kane.

The wingers that have had considerable success playing with Kane (Sharp, Saad, Panarin and even Versteeg to an extent) have all shown that they were perfectly capable of replicating their offensive success on other lines/teams. Honestly I just don’t really think that the way that Kane drives offense is conducive to maximizing his teammates production in a way that guys like Crosby (Sheary, Kunitz), Malkin (Dupuis, Neal) and McDavid (2017 Maroon) have done, and to expect him to turn any bottom six player into a viable top six option would be fairly unrealistic and also probably limit the effectiveness of what should be our go-to scoring line.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

Honest question: when has Kane really singlehandedly elevated a linemate beyond their career averages?

Kane is absolutely a world class offensive talent, but from what I can recall even in season he’s had a constant flow of wingers (barring Panarin who is a talent of his own right), and I think that the expectation that being paired up with Kane is an ideal landing spot that should maximize a players value is unfair to both the player in question and to Kane.

The wingers that have had considerable success playing with Kane (Sharp, Saad, Panarin and even Versteeg to an extent) have all shown that they were perfectly capable of replicating their offensive success on other lines/teams. Honestly I just don’t really think that the way that Kane drives offense is conducive to maximizing his teammates production in a way that guys like Crosby (Sheary, Kunitz), Malkin (Dupuis, Neal) and McDavid (2017 Maroon) have done, and to expect him to turn any bottom six player into a viable top six option would be fairly unrealistic and also probably limit the effectiveness of what should be our go-to scoring line.

Interesting point, I guess a lot of it is perception. Maybe it's more accurate to say that Kane is harder to drag down by playing with lesser talent than anyone else on the roster.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Yes, those lines played key roles in those cup runs.

10 - Buff-Toews-Kane (143 mins together, 6 goals, 60% CF)

13 - Bickell-Toews-Kane (73 mins together, 9 goals, 56% CF. Additionally, Toews and Hossa played 195 mins together w/o Kane that playoffs, Toews and Kane played 140 minutes together w/o Hossa — Toews/Hossa produced 7 goals while Toews/Kane produced 10)

15 - Saad-Toews-Kane (52 mins together, 3 goals, 50% CF. Small sample, but was formed in the WCF against Anaheim, and played in the SCF together)

Curious how much of that time in 13 and 15 was ES? Because I don't recall Kane and Toews playing together much at all in those 2 years. Only when the lines weren't clicking were they together.

 

[migi]

Curious how much of that time in 13 and 15 was ES? Because I don't recall Kane and Toews playing together much at all in those 2 years. Only when the lines weren't clicking were they together.

In 2015 Kane and Toews played the last three games against Ducks pretty much together, obviously they changed a lot depending on situation. But they basically dominated Getzlaf and Perry together while Hossa took beating against Kesler.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

Curious how much of that time in 13 and 15 was ES? Because I don't recall Kane and Toews playing together much at all in those 2 years. Only when the lines weren't clicking were they together.

Those are 5v5 minutes in the postseason.

For example, the Bickell-Toews-Kane line played together at 5v5 for less than 2 minutes during the 2013 regular season, but 73 5v5 minutes during that postseason. It goes to almost 78 minutes when you include all situations.

 

[Hawkaholic]

In 2015 Kane and Toews played the last three games against Ducks pretty much together, obviously they changed a lot depending on situation. But they basically dominated Getzlaf and Perry together while Hossa took beating against Kesler.

Right, I remember it happening here or there, but never for long stretches. You could argue it was more beneficial to have them separated than together.

 

[migi]

Right, I remember it happening here or there, but never for long stretches. You could argue it was more beneficial to have them separated than together.

Agree. Situational things, it was/is the ”nuclear” option after all.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

Right, I remember it happening here or there, but never for long stretches. You could argue it was more beneficial to have them separated than together.

Right, but that was when this team didn't have a legitimate playmaking second line center. The presence of Schmaltz makes Toews and Kane together more viable than possibly ever before. Add in Schmaltz getting wingers like DeBrincat and/or Saad, and it's a formidable second line that could be as productive as any that didn't include Kane.

It's fact that Toews and Kane are more dominate on puck possession when they're together. Kane's Corsi numbers skyrocket (10% or more) when he's paired with Toews, and Toews' improve when he's with Kane. Looking back over the years, it looks like (I haven't done enough analysis to say it conclusively) only Kane and Hossa have maximized Toews' ability and performance.

Toews along with Panarin have maximized Kane's ability and performance. Hossa and Panarin are gone, so Toews and Kane is the last possible combo you have where two stars can elevate each other to dominance.

That's my thought process anyway, definitely not saying I'm 100% right.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

Agree. Situational things, it was/is the ”nuclear” option after all.

Maybe we're at the point where this franchise needs to go full nuclear to get back into the conversation. Past numbers predict Toews and Kane could form an absolutely dominant line. Not good, but dominant.

Last year, the Hawks had two "fine" lines when keeping Toews and Kane separated and that didn't really help much. Toews and Kane should dominate with whatever LW, then putting DeBrincat-Schmaltz-Saad together should give you a really good if not dominant second line.

So you could go from two fine lines to a dominant line and a good line.

Again, this is my alternative argument to the Saad-Schmaltz-Kane line that Q wants to throw out. I think you're better off trying this than building a lineup around that combo.

 

[migi]

Maybe we're at the point where this franchise needs to go full nuclear to get back into the conversation. Past numbers predict Toews and Kane could form an absolutely dominant line. Not good, but dominant.

Last year, the Hawks had two "fine" lines when keeping Toews and Kane separated and that didn't really help much. Toews and Kane should dominate with whatever LW, then putting DeBrincat-Schmaltz-Saad together should give you a really good if not dominant second line.

So you could go from two fine lines to a dominant line and a good line.

Again, this is my alternative argument to the Saad-Schmaltz-Kane line that Q wants to throw out. I think you're better off trying this than building a lineup around that combo.

I completely agree with you.

Even if Toews with Kane would take the hardest match-ups, opponents have to respect that Kane is playing against them too and Kane is one of the best counter-attack player in the world. We have seen it before.

Hayden - Toews - Kane
DeBrincat - Schmaltz - Saad
Kahun - Anisimov - Sikura
Kunitz - Krüger - Kämpf

On paper that looks super solid.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

I completely agree with you.

Even if Toews with Kane would take the hardest match-ups, opponents have to respect that Kane is playing against them too and Kane is one of the best counter-attack player in the world. We have seen it before.

Hayden - Toews - Kane
DeBrincat - Schmaltz - Saad
Kahun - Anisimov - Sikura
Kunitz - Krüger - Kämpf

On paper that looks super solid.

Definitely, especially when you consider Q has no idea who he wants to play with DeBrincat and Toews and that likely means a rotating cast of warm bodies. That will only end up hurting both of them.

On paper, Kane and Toews are much more capable of handling the rotating cast of warm bodies than DeBrincat and Toews. A lot of that has to do with Kane being the hardest player to be dragged down by lesser linemates.

Also, as far as Kane facing the toughest forward competition, I’m not too worried about it either. He already faces good competition even with his high offensive ZSR, it wouldn’t be that much of an increase. And whatever potential hit to production he could see by an increase in competition, I feel like would be mitigated by playing with Toews.

 

[Pez68]

How’s he basically playing 4th line minutes? When Hossa did the same thing two years ago, he averaged 17:16 per game, 14 seconds less than Saad logged last season.

Saad would be on your top PK unit, and on your second PP unit.

If it’s not good enough, just swap he and Anisimov. I was just trying to improve the shutdown line so it’s not just a dump-in line.

Unfortunately any line that has Kruger on it is "just a dump-in line". He's absolutely useless offensively and brings down his entire line.

 

[Robsker]

I completely agree with you.

Even if Toews with Kane would take the hardest match-ups, opponents have to respect that Kane is playing against them too and Kane is one of the best counter-attack player in the world. We have seen it before.

Hayden - Toews - Kane
DeBrincat - Schmaltz - Saad
Kahun - Anisimov - Sikura
Kunitz - Krüger - Kämpf

On paper that looks super solid.

On paper that is as solid as it gets with this roster. I really like your lines. That said, relative to the league as a whole, that grouping of 12 forwards is average to slightly better than average at best. Maybe between # 15 or so in the league to perhaps #10. Not a bad array of forwards --- and if our forwards were our weakest unit, then not bad at all for the team. But are forwards are our strength! Our D pairings --- on paper --- are #25 or lower in the league. Goal-tending --- w/o Crow, who knows... perhaps 20th or so? With Crow, perhaps that becomes the Hawks strength.

But yes --- i like your lines better than any other suggestions --- or, at least as much as any other suggestion. it would be a great place to start.

 

[AmericanDream]

some of us have been saying this for a while now..Toews needs to get going, and the one guy that can do that is Kane.

it is FAR more imperative to get Toews producing again over just balancing lines out for the sake of it. Schmaltz has turned into that potential top line offensive center we hoped for, putting him and Cat together is a no brainer, adding Saad to that line just makes it even better for them to "feast" on leftovers as Toews/Kane line will draw top defenses. Hayden with Toews and Kane just makes too much sense to me since he is that bigger body that can open up even more ice for Kane, plus his tip ins and rebound ability is what Kane loves to have with his weird direction shots and in close passing.

that still leaves a pretty competent third line of AA, Sikura, and whoever...

now the big question is, will Q actually do it????