2017 Summer Not Transfer Discussion

[Incubajerks]

- Much harder to score in L1. And yet Mbappé scored 50% more goals in less games and less minutes per game.
- Scored more in the CL.

Try again.

ok!

 

[Evilo]

ok!

As the numbers have proved for years.
L1 is a league where you have 9 players defending all the time. Every player that comes here from another league says it : teams are well organised tactically and defensively.

So yeah.

 

[Incubajerks]

As the numbers have proved for years.
L1 is a league where you have 9 players defending all the time. Every player that comes here from another league says it : teams are well organised tactically and defensively.

So yeah.

And what is Serie A, please tell me!

 

[Evilo]

And what is Serie A, please tell me!

A higher scoring league?

HINT : 1123 goals in SA, 991 in L1.

 

[Incubajerks]

A higher scoring league?

HINT : 1123 goals in SA, 991 in L1.

i was expecting something more interesting to justify your take that L1 is better than Serie A( or Mbappè > Dybala). Believe it and we are both happy

 

[Evilo]

i was expecting something more interesting to justify your take that L1 is better than Serie A( or Mbappè > Dybala). Believe it and we are both happy

I gave you arguments :
- players coming from other leagues are often quoted as being surprised by the level of tactical defense in L1.
- players have had a hard time scoring in L1 coming from other leagues or vice versa (players having no trouble scoring outside L1, but problems inside)
- Numbers have proven there's much lower scoring in L1 than SA.

Finally, Mbappé has outscored Dybala both in L1 (by no less than 50% in less game and less minutes) AND in CL, yet you choose to ignore this point (while being a whopping 5 years younger).

 

[Corto]

A higher scoring league?

HINT : 1123 goals in SA, 991 in L1.

I'm not getting into this as both Mbappe and Dybala are already great and will be only better.

But, I think comparing the number of goals scored in Seria A and Ligue 1 is missing context.

Monaco plays attacking football and they keep going; part of the reason why half the Europe fell in love with them this season.

Juve plays a game intent on scoring a goal until they're up 1-0; then they counterattack for 2-0; then they just sit on the lead and kill the game off.
Honestly, if Juve is 2-0 up, I just switch channels.
Monaco scored like 30 goals more in their league, Juve just isn't about that. Allegri doesn't care; the amount of times he's taken off Dybala for Barzagli is something you won't see at other clubs.
They're clinical and cynical.

...

I think Ballon will be very interesting to see on the next vote.
Messi, while quite obviously the best player in the world, was on a Barca team that fell short in La Liga and was lucky to make it past the 2nd round in the CL.
Ronaldo, OTOH, has been scoring crucial goals lately, but his goal totals have suffered massively (though to be fair, he sat out 9 games vs weaker opposition in La Liga, he could've surely gotten anywhere from 7,8-14,15 goals there) and more importantly, his influence on the game outside of goalscoring has diminished.
He is more dependent on his team than ever.

In the end, I think it may simply come down to the CL final.
If Real win, their MVP for that game will have a shot (Ronaldo, Marcelo, Modric).
If Juve win, Buffon will be getting hype from both the media and the players.
I'm not sure Messi will have enough backing without club success - even though, like I said, he's quite clearly the best there is.

 

[Evilo]

As for your only argument Incubation, it's "L1 is ridOculous".
L1 is the league that sends the most talent in all of Europe.
Every year, the rich teams continue to pillage L1 and buy and buy and buy because we form the best talents in the world (with Brazil).
They don't buy in Italy mind you.

I wonder why. Probably because L1 is so pathetic compared to the incredible talents of Serie A.
Serie A, which was so impressive in Europe the last years. Outside of Juventus, no team is capable of reaching a big place in CL/EL.

 

[Evilo]

I'm not getting into this as both Mbappe and Dybala are already great and will be only better.

But, I think comparing the number of goals scored in Seria A and Ligue 1 is missing context.

Monaco plays attacking football and they keep going; part of the reason why half the Europe fell in love with them this season.

Juve plays a game intent on scoring a goal until they're up 1-0; then they counterattack for 2-0; then they just sit on the lead and kill the game off.
Honestly, if Juve is 2-0 up, I just switch channels.
Monaco scored like 30 goals more in their league, Juve just isn't about that. Allegri doesn't care; the amount of times he's taken off Dybala for Barzagli is something you won't see at other clubs.
They're clinical and cynical.

How is that relevant? Monaco faces defensive teams, period. It's not because they were red hot this year and scoring at will that this isn't true.
Mbappé's totals are 50 ****ing % over Dybala. In less games and less minutes. That's not a goal or two.
And AGAIN, he also outscored him in CL.

While being 5 years younger.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Context is key. Under allegri Dybala has played as 10. Juve lack that real creative midfielder so, Dybala ends up doing the job of 2. Similar to Messi on the NT.

Right now Dybala is obviously the better player. We'll see in the future.

 

[Evilo]

Totally disagree with "obviously".
At this point I have a hard time saying who's better. Dybala is more creative, has more finesse.
Mbappé has more power, is faster and better in front of the net.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Dybala Walked into a Serie A powerhouse and almost immediately became their best player. Yeah, they have different attributes but one right now is ahead and should be a finalist in the ballon D'or.

 

[Evilo]

Dybala won't be a finalist for the Bd'O.
Again, don't see of them "ahead" of the other.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Apart from the obvious 2 (one out of sheer politics) I don't see anyone who has a bigger claim for it then Dybala. I mean he could very well have a treble.

We'll see though.

 

[Evilo]

Outside the obvious 2, I'd say Neymar, Hazard, Cavani, Buffon can have a claim on that 3rd spot.
Of course, it'll all change in depending on who shines from august to december. The CL final might have an impact as well.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Outside the obvious 2, I'd say Neymar, Hazard, Cavani, Buffon can have a claim on that 3rd spot.
Of course, it'll all change in depending on who shines from august to december. The CL final might have an impact as well.

August to December and next weekend definitely have an impact. There's been a lot of buzz for Buffon.

 

[Luigi Habs]

Outside the obvious 2, I'd say Neymar, Hazard, Cavani, Buffon can have a claim on that 3rd spot.
Of course, it'll all change in depending on who shines from august to december. The CL final might have an impact as well.

For Juve the 2 most important players are Bonucci and Dybala. Buffon and Higuain are close 3rd. I doubt Buffon should be in the discussion even though he's my favorite goalie of all time.

 

[Evilo]

Oh he will. Juventus might not have reached the CL quarters if not for Buffon (see the double confrontation against Lyon).

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Outside the obvious 2, I'd say Neymar, Hazard, Cavani, Buffon can have a claim on that 3rd spot.
Of course, it'll all change in depending on who shines from august to december. The CL final might have an impact as well.

As of right now, Cavani and Hazard have no claim. Neither does Neymar but he has the pedigree. Buffon does deserve some recognition sadly, it's only the offensive players that get seriously considered.

We'll see I guess.

 

[Evilo]

Hazard had a fantastic season and turned Chelsea around. He faded late in the season a little, but he clearly has had a huge impact on the EPL (which is way tougher than the Serie A to win).
As for Cavani, his team failed to win the league and crashed in the CL so he won't get it but he had a season for the ages, either in L1, CL and NT.

 

[cgf]

Hazard had a fantastic season and turned Chelsea around. He faded late in the season a little, but he clearly has had a huge impact on the EPL (which is way tougher than the Serie A to win).
As for Cavani, his team failed to win the league and crashed in the CL so he won't get it but he had a season for the ages, either in L1, CL and NT.

Not playing in europe is pretty tough to overcome.

So by essentially saying that Dahoud won't be a challenger for the Ballon d'Or post Messi I am underrating Dahoud and am igorant of the player? OK.

Sure that...well either that or suggesting that arguing that Dahoud would start for Monaco caused him to unseat Toni Kroos as the most over-rated player around...

 

[YNWA14]

I would love to see an in depth tactical analysis of how Monaco was playing this season. The 4-4-2 is not often used at the highest level and it's a very contrasting style to Simeone's. Both are intriguing to me, and I found lots of material on Simeone's set up but not much on Monaco's.

 

[Blender]

Hazard had a fantastic season and turned Chelsea around. He faded late in the season a little, but he clearly has had a huge impact on the EPL (which is way tougher than the Serie A to win).
As for Cavani, his team failed to win the league and crashed in the CL so he won't get it but he had a season for the ages, either in L1, CL and NT.

I really like Hazard, but he wasn't even the most important player on Chelsea so I don't see how he can be considered for the Ballon d'Or.

 

[Evilo]

I would love to see an in depth tactical analysis of how Monaco was playing this season. The 4-4-2 is not often used at the highest level and it's a very contrasting style to Simeone's. Both are intriguing to me, and I found lots of material on Simeone's set up but not much on Monaco's.

They played with a double 8 in midfield. Both B2B.
Didn't press teams much in the offensive zone, but major pressing in half pitch.
Used their FB as WB, with tremendous speed.
Played with two strikers that hold the ball (Falcao and Germain) and then the classical italian style duo : holding striker (Falcao) and fast paced striker (Mbappé).
Bernard and Lemar played like 10, but on the wing, cutting inside half the time and delivering crosses the other half as well as playing with the WB.

 

[Corto]

I would love to see an in depth tactical analysis of how Monaco was playing this season. The 4-4-2 is not often used at the highest level and it's a very contrasting style to Simeone's. Both are intriguing to me, and I found lots of material on Simeone's set up but not much on Monaco's.

I only watched them in the CL, and 2-3 games in Ligue 1 because of Subasic... But whatever...

I think if there was one thing you had to think off with this team it was their FBs.

They basically went 2-4-4 on attack, the fullbacks go really high, but Lemar is more of a classic winger and stays wide more while Mendy overlaps and Silva cuts inside, with his ball skills and passes etc., while Sidibe took the flank.

The CB pairing got help from Fabinho when the FBs were caught up field.
He can drop either in the middle (something like Casemiro for Real) or cover for Sidibe if he's caught up high (Fabinho played RB, positionally its easy for him). He was the key to their defensive game.

Up front, like Evilo said, they played the two strikers, something very rare in Europe these days,
They built their attacks centrally, but made the final moves from the wings.
The FBs being so high allowed Silva and Lemar to cut inside more and take advantage of holes in the half space and wide space areas.
The FBs being so high also allowed them to switch sides quickly if one side of the pitch was cluttered with players.

I know he won't get much credit with football media that works on hype, but I truly believe the key player to allow all of this to happen was Fabinho.
Much like with Real, you need a guy who can read the game defensively to a tee if your FBs are living life so high up the pitch.
And much like Casemiro for Real, Fabinho was massive for them.
Neither are the package that someone like Busquets on his game is, but world class at what they do and what they're suppose to do.


----------------------Falcao----------Mbappe--------------
Lemar---------------------------------------------------Silva


Mendy-------------Bakayoko--------Fabinho---------Sidibe


-----------------------Jemerson---------Glik-----------------

----------------------------Subasic----------------------------


...is more or less what they looked like on attack.


All in all, it will be a shame if they're ripped apart this summer, they would only get better next season.

But with Silva already gone, Mendy apparently on the way, Bakayoko, Mbappe linked to big clubs...
They'll have the money to invest, but these players will be hard to replace.