2017 Summer Not Transfer Discussion

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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For sure we are top 10 though.

We are second best in Germany. Leipzig might've finished above us, but we closed the gap on them late in the season. They started great, but trailed off late.

No way is anyone in Italy besides Juve competitive with us. I don't think any of the English teams are as good. Atletico, Monaco, PSG are the other candidates for the 5th spot. Its easy to say Monaco>BVB, but that two-legged tie wasn't played under normal circumstances, so I'm not sure any previous opinions on those teams should be changed. PSG had a down season, and even then, I think they were kind of overrated. Atletico is very tough to play against, but I think we have more talent.

Its down to a matter of opinion. There's a good argument that we are 5th best.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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France
Atletico, PSG, Monaco, City are clearly a tier above. Chelsea, Napoli are in the same tier at the very least.

No Dortmund isn't close to top 5 team in Europe as of now. Arguable for the 10th spot.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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New York
Atletico, PSG, Monaco, City are clearly a tier above. Chelsea, Napoli are in the same tier at the very least.

No Dortmund isn't close to top 5 team in Europe as of now. Arguable for the 10th spot.

So Man City who was third in the Premier League behind Spurs who went out in the group stage to a team who wasn't far off getting relegated in the Bundesliga is better? :laugh:

Chelsea didn't play European competitions this season, so its impossible to judge what their level is. Maybe they are in the top tier with the big clubs, maybe they are no better than the other English clubs who failed to do well in the Champions League.

Napoli is a good side, but there's a big gap in talent between us and them. And then you are just being biased to say that the two French clubs are clearly a tier above. Atletico might be better, might not. I find it hard to say they are clearly better when they have inferior attacking talent.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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Yes, they are better. An will be even better next season.

Chelsea under Conte is definitely a top european team. No argument really.

As for biased because I rate two french teams above Dortmund, that's quite rich :biglaugh:

Atletico "might" be better? Inferior attacking talent?
Griezmann eats anything Dortmund can launch as of now.

Stop being ridiculous here. Dortmund isn't better than Atletico, not even close.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,228
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New York
Yes, they are better. An will be even better next season.

Chelsea under Conte is definitely a top european team. No argument really.

As for biased because I rate two french teams above Dortmund, that's quite rich :biglaugh:

Atletico "might" be better? Inferior attacking talent?
Griezmann eats anything Dortmund can launch as of now.

Stop being ridiculous here. Dortmund isn't better than Atletico, not even close.

I admitted to being biased, you didn't. ;)

We can let neutral third parties come in and decide this. Dortmund might not be top 5, but there's a clear case for it, and certainly top 10.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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There really isn't a single argument to Dortmund being top 5.
Atletico have two finals and yet another semi final to prove it.

There's no bias to say Dortmund is inferior to Monaco or PSG. To say the contrary is indeed being awfully biased.

Monaco torched Dortmund, who of course weren't at their best. Doesn't change the fact Monaco was the superior team, both on the pitch and on paper.
Same for PSG who torch Dortmund on paper (we can't judge otherwise) with superior players on every single line. Only Reus would start on PSG.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,228
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New York
Yeah, you are right, they only weren't at their best. Try nearly killed a day prior in a terrorist attack.

Its not an excuse for Monaco winning. The game didn't get replayed just because the Dortmund players were not in a mental state to play, nor does it change what the record books will say was the final score of the tie, but to use that as proof for why Monaco is better is so beyond flawed.

Its a semantics debate anyway. Dembele is not taking a step down to move to Arsenal, which definitely is worse than Dortmund.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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I also told you the rosters don't even compare. You ignored it, but that isn't exactl debatable either.
Dortmund has two or three players that would crack the Monaco lineup.
 

East Coast Bias

Registered User
Feb 28, 2014
8,362
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They wouldn't have won the title in any other top 5 league.

They finished 3rd in what was definitely a down Bliga year.

They have some exciting young talent, and are definitely a lot of fun to watch but let's be real here - as of today, they're not close to top 5.
 

hatterson

Registered User
Apr 12, 2010
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North Tonawanda, NY
The top 4 are pretty clear, not much argument from anyone.

For 5th, again I don't think there's much argument. Atletico has earned it with multiple deep runs in the champions league.

Then, based on results you hit teams like Dortmund, PSG and City, with Monaco and Chelsea by far behind.

Based on talent and makeup, I'd say it's completely fair to but City and PSG above Dortmund. I'd place Chelsea there as well based on form, manager, and on paper talent. Monaco is hard to rank for me. Monaco of this year is clearly a step above, but they don't have many results beyond this year and not a lot of history at the top. They're also likely to get raided hard this summer, so it's hard to predict next year. They should have an absolute truckload of money, so it'll depend how they spend it.

So for me Dortmund is floating around the 8-10 spot.
 

Paulie Gualtieri

R.I.P. Tony Sirico
May 18, 2016
12,312
3,052
Tier 1: Barca, RM, Bayern
Tier 2: Juventus, Atletico
Tier 3: Chelsea, PSG
Tier 4: City, BVB, ASM
 
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Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
51,305
45,253
I think it's pretty obvious Atletico is in the 5 spot and BVB is somewhere near the bottom of the top 10.
 

KJS14

Registered User
Jun 13, 2013
2,899
878
Funny how delusional some BVB fans are when all they do is crap on Arsenal for it.

Everyone: What will you do if Sanchez leaves? That's a lot of goals you'll lose.
Arsenal fans: Idk let's see what happens first (admittedly one crazy one said we wont miss him).

Everyone: What will you do if Auba leaves? That's a lot of goals you'll lose.
BVB fans: Oh we create far too many chances and any competent striker could put them in the back of the net. We won't miss him.

It's rich knowing that some BVB fans have the same mentality that some Arsenal fans had for years. The german bias on this forum is strong.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
60,348
2,397
Atletico, PSG, Monaco, City are clearly a tier above. Chelsea, Napoli are in the same tier at the very least.

No Dortmund isn't close to top 5 team in Europe as of now. Arguable for the 10th spot.

Uhh, so these tiers are just for this year right? Because Monaco will have to rebuild if they sell 4 or 5 key players, the same way Dortmund did last year. No reason to think long-term that Monaco are ahead of Dortmund. And for this year teams like City and PSG aren't ahead, either.

The top 4 are pretty clear, not much argument from anyone.

For 5th, again I don't think there's much argument. Atletico has earned it with multiple deep runs in the champions league.

Then, based on results you hit teams like Dortmund, PSG and City, with Monaco and Chelsea by far behind.

Based on talent and makeup, I'd say it's completely fair to but City and PSG above Dortmund. I'd place Chelsea there as well based on form, manager, and on paper talent. Monaco is hard to rank for me. Monaco of this year is clearly a step above, but they don't have many results beyond this year and not a lot of history at the top. They're also likely to get raided hard this summer, so it's hard to predict next year. They should have an absolute truckload of money, so it'll depend how they spend it.

So for me Dortmund is floating around the 8-10 spot.

Fair to put PSG ahead of Dortmund on talent and stature, but their CL results still lag behind Dortmund's.

Funny how delusional some BVB fans are when all they do is crap on Arsenal for it.

Everyone: What will you do if Sanchez leaves? That's a lot of goals you'll lose.
Arsenal fans: Idk let's see what happens first (admittedly one crazy one said we wont miss him).

Everyone: What will you do if Auba leaves? That's a lot of goals you'll lose.
BVB fans: Oh we create far too many chances and any competent striker could put them in the back of the net. We won't miss him.

It's rich knowing that some BVB fans have the same mentality that some Arsenal fans had for years. The german bias on this forum is strong.

Only one person said this as well.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
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France
Uhh, so these tiers are just for this year right? Because Monaco will have to rebuild if they sell 4 or 5 key players, the same way Dortmund did last year. No reason to think long-term that Monaco are ahead of Dortmund. And for this year teams like City and PSG aren't ahead, either.



Fair to put PSG ahead of Dortmund on talent and stature, but their CL results still lag behind Dortmund's.

Yes I talked about this year's Monaco and we have no idea what they'll look like next season.
So far they've lost one player (Silva) and signed one (Tielemans).
Their CL results lag behind Dortmund but let's be honest, if they had faced the same draw as Dortmund they wouldn't have lost in the first round of the KO stage.
I think this year, PSG and City would have eliminated BVB.
Because even with their issues, BVB wasn't without issues either, and far less firepower overall.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
60,348
2,397
Yes I talked about this year's Monaco and we have no idea what they'll look like next season.
So far they've lost one player (Silva) and signed one (Tielemans).
Their CL results lag behind Dortmund but let's be honest, if they had faced the same draw as Dortmund they wouldn't have lost in the first round of the KO stage.
I think this year, PSG and City would have eliminated BVB.
Because even with their issues, BVB wasn't without issues either, and far less firepower overall.

Well, it wasn't just the KO round. Dortmund won a group with Real Madrid. PSG couldn't win their group with Arsenal. City couldn't win their group with Barcelona. Dortmund well earned their easier R16 opponent.

BVB certainly had a lot of issues this year. No arguments there.
 

Havre

Registered User
Jul 24, 2011
8,459
1,733
mendy supposedly flying to England, but then hes just posted a video from France. press know nothing it would seem

Thank you. A post about a potential summer transfer. Kind of :laugh:

So many players on so many flights. I´m sure the journalists know, but even if some speculation is wrong no-one really cares. People still click.

Not sure why Silva happened so quickly. I´m expecting Monaco to hold on to their players until late when some crazy offers might come in.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,958
8,526
France
As I said, I fully expect Monaco to sell 3, max 4 players. But they have replacements lined up already.
 

hatterson

Registered User
Apr 12, 2010
34,953
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North Tonawanda, NY
Fair to put PSG ahead of Dortmund on talent and stature, but their CL results still lag behind Dortmund's.

In the last 5 years it's 1 final, 2 quarters, 1 R16 and 1 failure to qualify for Dortmund vs. 4 quarters and 1 R16 finish.

In 2013 PSG beat Valencia before losing to Barca on away goals in the quarters. Dortmund beat Shakhtar, Malaga, and Madrid before losing to Bayern in the finals. Clearly their best run

In 2014 PSG beat Leverkusen before losing on away goals to Chelsea in the quarters.
Dortmund beat Zenit before losing to Madrid in the quarters.

In 2015 PSG beat Chelsea on away goals before losing to Barca in the quarters.
Dortmund lost to Juve in R16.

In 2016 PSG beat Chelsea before losing to City in the quarters.
Dortmund failed to qualify.

In 2017 PSG had Barca on the ropes before a collapse.
Dortmund beat Benfica before losing to Monaco in the quarters.

As for group stage performance over that time, there really hasn't been much difference between the teams. Sure Dortmund's run in 2013 is the best of the bunch, but it's not like they have a long string of good wins. Both teams have generally beat the teams they're supposed to beat and each have 1 win against a top opponent. Dortmund was the 2013 Semi vs Real Madrid and PSG was the 2015 R16 against Chelsea (that was before they exploded)

So yea, Dortmund have better results, but not by much and given the circumstances I personally don't count it for much.
 

S E P H

Cloud IX
Mar 5, 2010
30,722
16,243
Toruń, PL
BVB fans are like those junior hockey players who think they're pros because they played one year in junior "B".

"Yeah, remember that one time where we made the Champion League's Final and lost?". "Oh man that was awesome, we're like soooo much better than Atletico Madrid and Arsenal!". "We won ours in 1997 where there were only four groups with no Real Madrid or Barca, which nobody gives a damn about it anymore, but who cares". "Theyre only haterz!" "We have the most paid player in Germany called Marco Reus!". "He never plays because he's always injured, but man if he did, he would tear the pitch apart!".

That's how I picture you guys. :laugh:
 

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