Speculation: 2017 Off Season Discussion V - rt calls his shot.

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SniperHF

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This is a valid point in an argument against noone. I think we all (or most) agree that the team is better.

I think you missed the thread, the or most part was the issue. Hinterland seems to think that no one at all was concerned about the direction of this team post firing but pre trades. That's just flat out untrue.

The media was actually paying attention to the Coyotes. That says it all right there.


I'm very confident that in 2.5 years the group of Murphy, Deangelo and Necas will be close to on par with the group of Stepan and Hjalmarsson. In 4years the younger group will be flat out better and Hjalmarsson will be set to retire. I think we gave up too much in talented youth at the wrong time.

All developed with the cast here before those trades? I'm not. Even with UFAs.

You could argue that the new vets will shelter our remaining youth, I just think UFA vets (aka free assets) could have done that as well.

Who though? That's the problem. The UFA crop was grade z garbage.

We've tried going into 5+ seasons with Hanzal as the best center on the roster. That hasn't worked and there were not better centers available who were coming here.

What's the alternate universe roster look like without Hammer and Stepan in 2017?
 

Hinterland

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Again, OEL has not played his game because he was covering for whomever he was playing with. Murphy can't cover s---. He would retrieve the puck, if he even got to the puck, turn around and bang it off the boards. The opposition would always throw the puck on the opposite side of OEL because they knew they had a much better chance of getting the puck back. Murphy and Stone had their chance to step up their game and both failed miserably.

They are both fine and could improve if better coached. Potential is there. Of course Stone didn't exactly win the lottery in Calgary. Gulutzan is pretty dumb from what I've seen and read. Comes right after Bednar...on my list at least.
 

Hinterland

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I think you missed the thread, the or most part was the issue. Hinterland seems to think that no one at all was concerned about the direction of this team post firing but pre trades. That's just flat out untrue.

Who was worried about what?:laugh:
About finishing last? That's likely gonna happen anyway, despite the deals since this team is clearly worse than last years :laugh:
It's a rebuild. No reason to be worried. Would have been worried if there was something to lose. There wasn't.

You probably just have an overdose of Tippett if you think that finishing last is bad. See what it got the Coyotes. Lots of decent picks but no superstars while Edmonton and Toronto get the 1st overall like every other year:shakehead
 

Hinterland

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I've been accused of being a Tippett fan so clearly there's no further use for this anymore.

Well. I'm just wondering what you could be afraid of during a rebuild. Not much I can think of...what could go wrong other than bad drafts, playing prospects in the NHL too early and what just happened...the GM wasting valuable assets.
Also, you can easily be affected by Tippett and the whole media around him without being a fan.
 
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The Feckless Puck

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It's funny. The direction this discussion is taking almost - ALMOST - makes it seem like this team is not still on the precipice of a relocation, that Barroway has enough money to build a proper roster, that Chayka has the budget wherewithal to go above and beyond the traditionalism and dumpster-diving that Maloney did during his tenure.

None of that is true. The team is still being run on the dirt cheap. Barroway is leveraged past his eyeballs and is, at best, in a holding action until he can either flip the team or find an Arizona town stupid enough to subsidize the team with taxpayer money. The team has zero prospects for an East Valley arena right now, no matter what anyone tells you about "the process" and whatever else. And because of this, Arizona is probably one of the last places that anyone in the league wants to play unless they already play here or they're forced to come here in a trade.

In THAT context, what Chayka has done in his tenure is nothing short of miraculous, from an asset management point of view. Compared to the reactionary, heavily-traditionalist, old-buddies network Maloney relied on, Chayka has been a revelation. He's done the best with what he has, and what he has is the most threadbare of cupboards.

I suppose it would be a sort of typical Coyotes justice if Chayka did get fired - it'd be the perfect denouement to his story, because he'd probably take another team with proper resources to the playoffs. As it stands, though, Chayka may end up taking a team in another market down the path of success - THIS team, actually, unless a set of miracles happens in rather quick succession.
 

Bonsai Tree

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I fail to see the downside of the Hammer and Stepan trades. Young talent needs a veteran presence for any number of reasons. Maturity in times of stress, tamping down excessive emotion and just teaching how to be a professional in the NHL come to mind. An all-youth team will not progress nearly as fast or as successfully as one with some steady veterans who are good in the clubhouse as well as on the ice.
 

Hinterland

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It's funny. The direction this discussion is taking almost - ALMOST - makes it seem like this team is not still on the precipice of a relocation, that Barroway has enough money to build a proper roster, that Chayka has the budget wherewithal to go above and beyond the traditionalism and dumpster-diving that Maloney did during his tenure.

None of that is true. The team is still being run on the dirt cheap. Barroway is leveraged past his eyeballs and is, at best, in a holding action until he can either flip the team or find an Arizona town stupid enough to subsidize the team with taxpayer money. The team has zero prospects for an East Valley arena right now, no matter what anyone tells you about "the process" and whatever else. And because of this, Arizona is probably one of the last places that anyone in the league wants to play unless they already play here or they're forced to come here in a trade.

In THAT context, what Chayka has done in his tenure is nothing short of miraculous, from an asset management point of view. Compared to the reactionary, heavily-traditionalist, old-buddies network Maloney relied on, Chayka has been a revelation. He's done the best with what he has, and what he has is the most threadbare of cupboards.

I suppose it would be a sort of typical Coyotes justice if Chayka did get fired - it'd be the perfect denouement to his story, because he'd probably take another team with proper resources to the playoffs. As it stands, though, Chayka may end up taking a team in another market down the path of success - THIS team, actually, unless a set of miracles happens in rather quick succession.

You're just speculating regarding Barroway. Who knows for sure?

If Chayka really needs to save money, he could have paid Vegas to take McGinn or he could have, what a smart GM would have done anyway during a rebuild...saved even more money by not acquiring players in or past their prime for valuable assets.
 

Hinterland

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I fail to see the downside of the Hammer and Stepan trades. Young talent needs a veteran presence for any number of reasons. Maturity in times of stress, tamping down excessive emotion and just teaching how to be a professional in the NHL come to mind. An all-youth team will not progress nearly as fast or as successfully as one with some steady veterans who are good in the clubhouse as well as on the ice.

Nobody wants a youth team. What Chayka should have done is either keep some of last years team or sign FA's. Other teams like Toronto did this for decades. Sign crap UFA's to be sure to finish last. Those who did better than expected and could have put the last place at risk they traded for picks at the deadline.
 

SniperHF

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Hanzal, Postma. I thought Brian Campbell was the cream of the UFA crop. He retired, will never know if he could have been enticed to play another season.

Hanzal is a fair answer but this whole conversation started in large part over depth and he's a depth nightmare.


Postma though, somehow only averaged 10 minutes a game as a defenseman? Honestly I don't know much about Postma but Clendenning looks way more appealing to me even with his limited experience.
 

SniperHF

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Domi-Hanzal-Vrbata
Keller-Dvorak-Duclair
Perlini-Strome-Rieder
Martinook-Richardson-Fischer
McGinn
Cousins

OEL-Gogo
Campbell-Murphy
Chychrun-Deangelo
Postma
Schenn

You've already acknowledged the roster is better now, if lacking depth and weak in spots. So this is the all-in on futures roster.

I don't think Strome and Keller can develop on that roster. I'm not even sure we'll make it work now but I think there's a better chance. We saw exactly what happens with that kind of line up last season. Hanzal goes down a few games, a player or two ends up in the minors, Murphy regresses, and all the sudden we're sitting with a team that's 2nd worst in the league again. Or 3rd in the '17 context since I think Vegas will be worse as well. We have those same problems now but with the above roster the upper limit on improvement is nil outside of prospects hitting.

Clayton Keller and Dylan Strome are the two most important assets this organization has and if they do not hit this rebuild will fail. One DeAngelo and one Necas would not prevent that. I believe everything should be done within reason and capability to ensure that Strome and Keller have the best development environment possible and that isn't it. This seem to be the divide.

The roster also ignores some of the purgey aspects of what went down this offseason and I don't think that works. Hanzal wasn't even offered a deal by the FO. Vrbata was low-balled for similar reasons. Still need a goalie as well as Raanta never comes over. You can disagree with the purge and that plan but it was pretty clearly baked in the cake. What happened after was the question. Stepan and Hjalmarsson solidified front line needs without compromising the existing prospect pool.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned being against the trades because they look like something a team gunning for the playoffs would do but other moves indicate that isn't what they are doing. This ignores budget and availability issues which are likely.

We'll never know if I'm wrong and Keller/Strome could successfully develop with a lesser roster. But I think it's pretty clear the FO did what they did for that reason, not to shoot for the playoffs.
 

Mosby

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Feb 16, 2012
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I'm so glad we actually changed the look and brought in real talent instead of plugging Hanzal and Burmi into our top center roles.

I'd rather pay for Stepan than take Hanzal for free.


Betcha the Westerlund pick gets us Raanta. Especially if we toss in Hill or Langhammer or somebody.

Ehh. NYR would have had no reason to trade just Raanta. Stepan went because the NTC was about to kick in and they needed the cap dollars for their other offseason moves (Zibanejad extension, Shattenkirk, buyout space for Girardi, etc).

They're actually paying more for Pavelec (1.3M) than they would have been paying for Raanta (1M).
 

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
Mar 9, 2007
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I'm so glad we actually changed the look and brought in real talent instead of plugging Hanzal and Burmi into our top center roles.

No kidding. Definition of insanity cliche and all :laugh:


Ehh. NYR would have had no reason to trade just Raanta. Stepan went because the NTC was about to kick in and they needed the cap dollars for their other offseason moves (Zibanejad extension, Shattenkirk, buyout space for Girardi, etc).

They're actually paying more for Pavelec (1.3M) than they would have been paying for Raanta (1M).

I think there's a chance they would have wanted the 2nd straight up. The Rangers did seem interested in acquiring some futures in addition to making room for those other deals.

Ultimately I think DeAngelo and Raanta were more about getting the value to work though.
 

lanky

Feeling Spicy
Jun 23, 2007
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rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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As much as losing DeAngelo kills me, I'm not here to trash that trade. I get that trade. I also understand the Murphy trade. If you're going to **** can the entire staff and tell Doan and Vrbata to go kick rocks, you're going to need Stepan and Hjalmarsson. And oh by the way, I think Smith is snake venom. I like the moves. I'm glad we did what we did right before, during, and right after the draft. I'm not here to complain about that.

My beef is that we did jack **** after. Nada.
 

TheLegend

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Aug 30, 2009
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You're just speculating regarding Barroway. Who knows for sure?

If Chayka really needs to save money, he could have paid Vegas to take McGinn or he could have, what a smart GM would have done anyway during a rebuild...saved even more money by not acquiring players in or past their prime for valuable assets.

No.... he isn't. Barroway took out a huge loan to finance his buyout.... AND retire the existing LOC debt the franchise had with the league.
 

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
Mar 9, 2007
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I'm not even convinced that Stepan is significantly better than Hanzal right now.

Funnily enough I made almost the same point a couple days ago with regular stats :P. Though I was mostly limiting my point to offense.

But I think Stepan is better in enough ways that are harder to quantify plus he's young enough to where he's still an asset for some time and could be moved again. I don't think we'd recover top 10 pick value but it wouldn't be too far off either.

Hammer? Yeah he'll probably be declined too far. That's a negative I'm willing to live with though if it gives us a legit shot suppressing top pairing that gives our forwards some room to breath.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
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As much as losing DeAngelo kills me, I'm not here to trash that trade. I get that trade. I also understand the Murphy trade. If you're going to **** can the entire staff and tell Doan and Vrbata to go kick rocks, you're going to need Stepan and Hjalmarsson. And oh by the way, I think Smith is snake venom. I like the moves. I'm glad we did what we did right before, during, and right after the draft. I'm not here to complain about that.

My beef is that we did jack **** after. Nada.

Have to also agree with this.

I had the impression.... and Chayka himself kept admitting .... that we were not done making moves and at least one other pice was going to drop into place. And now here we are a week from Rookie Camp and nuttin' happinin'.

Also agree with Del's comment earlier about the Vermette buyout last season. I felt they were all in with Strome filling that spot and when he came to camp looking worse than his draft year it left a huge hole in the middle. Coupled with Richardson going down we turned into a PTO camp for C's the entire year.
 

Matias Maccete

Chopping up defenses
Sep 21, 2014
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Have to also agree with this.

I had the impression.... and Chayka himself kept admitting .... that we were not done making moves and at least one other pice was going to drop into place. And now here we are a week from Rookie Camp and nuttin' happinin'.

Also agree with Del's comment earlier about the Vermette buyout last season. I felt they were all in with Strome filling that spot and when he came to camp looking worse than his draft year it left a huge hole in the middle. Coupled with Richardson going down we turned into a PTO camp for C's the entire year.

Could be Chayka wants to wait until after camp to see how the rookies look. Plus some low end depth could be available on the cheap then. Teams run out of spots, and don't want to lose a player to waivers. It wouldn't be top end guys obviously, but it would be cheap. Tbh I'm ok either way. Some more depth, especially on D would be nice, but I think we'd be ok standing pat.
 
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