Speculation: 2017 Off Season Discussion V - rt calls his shot.

[RABBIT]

I see Stepan and Hjalmarsson as a hell of an improvement. Chalmers is one of the most coveted defensemen in the league. Murphy and DeAngelo were hard to lose sure, but i think we witnessed Murphy's peak (or at least the beginning of it) and unfortunately DeAngelo is a wild card due to reputation/attitude issues.

We've got two proven winners with heart and soul, and most importantly respect. Some people on these boards would find negatives if we drafted McDavid or acquired Crosby. Let's let the season before we start sharpening our knives.

 

[TheLegend]

2017 Off Season Discussion V - The Pre-Season Panic

Since we blew right though the thread limit I moved the last 26 posts to this one....

So.....

 

[SniperHF]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2384089

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPWkFvJ7Rdw
Hat Trick goal against the Devils is one of the best I have seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXqp2gQofLI
Great hits but his slap shot actually hits the net

Another way of looking at things.

Going into 16/17 Our best players were:
OEL
Domi
Hanzal

After that it's a little more unclear.
It wasn't clear at the time Vrby was going to rebound.
Doan's regression was likely.
Goligoski is a good player but a middle pairing guy.
Rieder


More or less in that order.



Going into 17/18 our best players are:
OEL
Stepan
Domi
Hjalmarsson

Then some combination of Dvorak, Perlini, Goligoski, Rieder


The 2nd group is just flat out better.


The Coyotes have added 2 legitimate front line pieces in one offseason. Yeah the depth is bad. The depth was always bad. Now it's a little worse on D instead of being horrible @ C. I'm not seeing the big deal here.


What we have going into 2017 is a group with more top end potential by a long shot and a little more risk of falling on its face. Stepan and Hammer may not be dazzlers but they are legitimate front line players and we haven't had as many of those at one time as we do now since 2013.

 

[Sinurgy]

Honestly they could easily finish dead last or make the playoffs, there's just so much that could go right or wrong with this team which makes the season very intriguing. It's entirely plausible that OEL has his best season ever playing along side Chalmers, Domi becomes a first line player, Duclair repeats his freshman season, Perlini pots 25g, Dvorak cracks 50pts, Strome and Keller are Calder candidates, Raanta matches Smith's numbers, Goligoski plays a full season the same way he played the final 2 months of last year, Crouse blossoms thanks to a more offensive role, etc. etc. Now I'm not saying all of that is likely but it's certainly not out of the question. As usual it's probably somewhere in the middle but even then it's hard to guess where that puts them.

So. Much. Unknown.

 

[hbk]

I wonder if we misinterpreted those trades. When we acquired Hammer and Stepan I assumed they were win now moves. Maybe it was more that we got Stepan to shelter Dvorak and Strome, and Hammer to make OEL happy?

Someone thought those were "just" win now moves and not about protecting youth and forcing them to eat a 50 loss season? That kind of floors me if that was the mindset.

We addressed our three biggest needs at expense of a top 10 pick in a mediocre draft (2nd line upside talent), a promising RD with baggage that was someone else's sell low the year prior, a prospect who had run out of waiver ineligibility, and a 4/5 D that most here didn't like since he was drafted years ago. We are a much more competitive team than we were a year ago. Yes we have an imbalance at RD. That too will run its course. Chayka has shown he's not afraid to pay the price to get his guy. Previously we refused and we ended up with a lot of status quo seasons.

These moves right or wrong will push us out of a never ending spell of mediocrity.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Someone thought those were "just" win now moves and not about protecting youth and forcing them to eat a 50 loss season? That kind of floors me if that was the mindset.

I phrased that poorly, I didn't think they were exclusively win now moves, but that improving the team this year was a factor. Since no more moves were made maybe a dramatic improvement this year isn't a priority and they were made mostly for developmental reasons. Really I'm fine with the roster now, but I did suspect there would be another small move or two, especially after Chychrun went down.

 

[Hinterland]

Your 50% percent right

It's the new Coyotes without Tippett and co. that's exciting. Correct

The trades with Chicago and NYR are, at least for a rebuilding team, terrible. Umm I personally don't ever like to say someone is wrong but let's just say a team needs leaders and some with winning experience. As for entertainment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPWkFvJ7Rdw
Hat Trick goal against the Devils is one of the best I have seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXqp2gQofLI
Great hits but his slap shot actually hits the net

Murphy is a better leader than both Hjalmarsson and Stepan together. From what I got from distance, he was leading by example both on and off the ice. He was probably my favourite to get the "C" from Doan. He was also Captain of this years US national team and assistant of last years squad.
You're making random stuff up to justify the trades but that doesn't make them any better. The two are good players but they're clearly not what the Coyotes needed in the current situation.

 

[SniperHF]

I phrased that poorly, I didn't think they were exclusively win now moves, but that improving the team this year was a factor. Since no more moves were made maybe a dramatic improvement this year isn't a priority and they were made mostly for developmental reasons. Really I'm fine with the roster now, but I did suspect there would be another small move or two, especially after Chychrun went down.

Chayka said there was another move in the works after the draft but before the Chychrun injury even. It seems that didn't materialize so here we are.

Based on how the Stepan and Hjalmarsson (Another Chalmers sighting in this thread, seriously what's the deal? I want to know) I've been assuming that any move we make can't seriously impact our current prospect pool.

So that means we're left with trading picks, which are at bottom dollar value right now. Or the Rieder types who might not be particularly in demand right now since most teams have their own tweener LWs. There was also Vegas and they appeared to shut us out. Possibly an old school Mcphee vs new school Chayka issue.

There's just not much you can do with that stuff^.

 

[rt]

The team needed a coaching and leadership transplant. They moved out old coaches and leadership and needed new ones brought in.They invested in Stepan and Hjalmarsson as part of the that new leadership. This was as much to provide guidance and insulation and shelter for the the young kids as it was about making us more competitive today. I understand and agree with all of that. That was the hard part. Getting new leaders for the top line and the top pair was the expensive hard part. I'm glad they managed to do it and I'm okay with the prices that were paid. I understand it and I'm grateful for it.

It's the less hard part that went undone that is baffling to me. You already went through the trouble to bring in the big pieces. How hard is it by comparison to bring in a middling piece or two to round things out a little? Or at the very least bring in some halfway competent insurance pieces. They didn't even do that.

It's like building a brand-new, state-of-art arena complex for the team to play in but you never bothered to install any of the light bulbs your ordered. You already did the hard part. Just finish the ****ing job.

 

[Hinterland]

The local reaction was definitely not positive in the immediate aftermath of the changes. The Stepan and Hjlamarsson deals did go a long way to calming things down.

The only places that were mostly happy in the time between Tip being fired and the draft day deals were here and a few scatterings on Reddit/FFH. Local media, social media, and national media were all freaking out to one degree or another.

NHL fans I regularly talk to, like friends or people from my fantasy league were all positive about Barroway taking over and finally cleaning the house. In fact, everybody around the league was wondering how Tippett and his clowns were able to hold themselves for that long. It's really just the Tippett fanatics of the local media who don't get it. They obviously weren't allowed to say or write anything bad about Tippett and co for so long that they now even believe what they said/wrote. Listening to Nash/McConnell or reading Morgan/McLellan regularly is as good as a brainwash and those idiots now even believe themselves

They'll get over it eventually. But I can see a similar development with Chayka. Not a single critical word yet...all praise for a guy who didn't solve any problems so far but created a bunch of new ones. I could write probably write a book about what went wrong under him and McGinn would be just the introduction.

 

[Hinterland]

The team needed a coaching and leadership transplant. They moved out old coaches and leadership and needed new ones brought in.They invested in Stepan and Hjalmarsson as part of the that new leadership. This was as much to provide guidance and insulation and shelter for the the young kids as it was about making us more competitive today. I understand and agree with all of that. That was the hard part. Getting new leaders for the top line and the top pair was the expensive hard part. I'm glad they managed to do it and I'm okay with the prices that were paid. I understand it and I'm grateful for it.

It's the less hard part that went undone that is baffling to me. You already went through the trouble to bring in the big pieces. How hard is it by comparison to bring in a middling piece or two to round things out a little? Or at the very least bring in some halfway competent insurance pieces. They didn't even do that.

It's like building a brand-new, state-of-art arena complex for the team to play in but you never bothered to install any of the light bulbs your ordered. You already did the hard part. Just finish the ****ing job.

It's not just little things. In order to even be a bubble team, they need to bring in at least one right shooting RW and D. Preferably guys who can pull the trigger on the PP. With the current team, expect the PP to be even worse than last season. If you don't have a serious righty to go to, you're like an open book. Takes so many options away.

 

[SniperHF]

It's the less hard part that went undone that is baffling to me. You already went through the trouble to bring in the big pieces. How hard is it by comparison to bring in a middling piece or two to round things out a little? Or at the very least bring in some halfway competent insurance pieces. They didn't even do that.

Two things:

It's probably harder than you'd think right now. There's only been one trade in the whole league since July 15th. Teams are standing pat for whatever reason.


Budget is a real possibility. I hope it's not the only reason nothing has been done, but it could be. Whether it's simply AB saying we're at our internal cap right now, or Chayka holding back a little in reserve for the right deal later.


Basically my point is I wouldn't assume it's dereliction when there are legitimate reasons the FO may not have done more. This FO hasn't earned that kind of skepticism.

 

[Jakey53]

Haven't touched a puck in anger yet and we're already on the "fire Chayka" bandwagon??

I am at a complete loss.

Given the context of this franchise, Chayka has been a frigging miracle worker. And this is from one of the people who thought putting him in charge was a titanic mistake.

How about we ACTUALLY crash and burn before you folks demand another total rebuild?

Exactly, but what did you expect from HF boards?

Maybe I was living in a bubble, but I kinda thought this was the prevailing wisdom. Now lots of people are going all over all the problems on the roster as if they were ever going to be fixed in one offseason.

It's absurd.

Correct. Like I have said a million times, we have to be patient with this rebuild. I did not like all the moves that Chayka did, but it is a long way until the season starts. Make no mistake, this year is crucial for the rebuild and we have to see more progression from the blue chippers, which I think we will. Not all are going to have a great year but I think we may be in for a pleasant surprise or two. The D scares the hell out of me but our top 4 are not to shabby but the remainder of the D is what I'm worried about.

 

[Jakey53]

We traded a bunch of appreciating assets for a couple declining assets. If we were planning on being in the playoffs this year then the trades would make sense because the value isn't bad. It just looks like we're not planning on being in the playoffs (imo because of poor D depth).

You call Murphy a appreciating asset?

 

[Jakey53]

I see Stepan and Hjalmarsson as a hell of an improvement. Chalmers is one of the most coveted defensemen in the league. Murphy and DeAngelo were hard to lose sure, but i think we witnessed Murphy's peak (or at least the beginning of it) and unfortunately DeAngelo is a wild card due to reputation/attitude issues.

We've got two proven winners with heart and soul, and most importantly respect. Some people on these boards would find negatives if we drafted McDavid or acquired Crosby. Let's let the season before we start sharpening our knives.

Bingo! I'm so so on the Stepan deal but loved loved loved the Chalmers deal. Getting rid of Murphy was a big positive. Schenn of all people out played him last year. Murphy should have played third pairing where he will be just fine, but we can find some one else much cheaper.

 

[Hinterland]

You call Murphy a appreciating asset?

Of course. Poor guy only got to play for Tippett so far. Watch him flourish under Quenneville. Best man in the business and a much better team. Expect big things from Murphy.

 

[Hinterland]

Bingo! I'm so so on the Stepan deal but loved loved loved the Chalmers deal. Getting rid of Murphy was a big positive. Schenn of all people out played him last year. Murphy should have played third pairing where he will be just fine, but we can find some one else much cheaper.

They did find Clendening. He's cheaper and makes just 10x more mistakes. Great, eh?

 

[Jakey53]

Murphy is a better leader than both Hjalmarsson and Stepan together. From what I got from distance, he was leading by example both on and off the ice. He was probably my favourite to get the "C" from Doan. He was also Captain of this years US national team and assistant of last years squad.
You're making random stuff up to justify the trades but that doesn't make them any better. The two are good players but they're clearly not what the Coyotes needed in the current situation.

Give it a rest. Murphy is a good kid and probably well liked but I sure do not see him as a better leader than the guys you mentioned. I like Murphy as a person but he is a third pairing Dman. IF he gets sheltered, like OEL did for him, he might end up a second pairing in a pinch.

 

[lanky]

The 2nd group is just flat out better.

This is a valid point in an argument against noone. I think we all (or most) agree that the team is better.

I'm very confident that in 2.5 years the group of Murphy, Deangelo and Necas will be close to on par with the group of Stepan and Hjalmarsson. In 4years the younger group will be flat out better and Hjalmarsson will be set to retire. I think we gave up too much in talented youth at the wrong time.

You could argue that the new vets will shelter our remaining youth, I just think UFA vets (aka free assets) could have done that as well.

 

[Jakey53]

The team needed a coaching and leadership transplant. They moved out old coaches and leadership and needed new ones brought in.They invested in Stepan and Hjalmarsson as part of the that new leadership. This was as much to provide guidance and insulation and shelter for the the young kids as it was about making us more competitive today. I understand and agree with all of that. That was the hard part. Getting new leaders for the top line and the top pair was the expensive hard part. I'm glad they managed to do it and I'm okay with the prices that were paid. I understand it and I'm grateful for it.

It's the less hard part that went undone that is baffling to me. You already went through the trouble to bring in the big pieces. How hard is it by comparison to bring in a middling piece or two to round things out a little? Or at the very least bring in some halfway competent insurance pieces. They didn't even do that.

It's like building a brand-new, state-of-art arena complex for the team to play in but you never bothered to install any of the light bulbs your ordered. You already did the hard part. Just finish the ****ing job.

I don't want any middling piece of crap like we have been doing until the kids started to mature. We are at that point now. Let's keep on bringing in the kids, let them learn from their mistakes. We cut bait with Doan, Vrbata etc. so the kids can play, and now is the time. Let the cream rise to the top during training camp and then go from there.

 

[Jakey53]

Of course. Poor guy only got to play for Tippett so far. Watch him flourish under Quenneville. Best man in the business and a much better team. Expect big things from Murphy.

He should look better being sheltered even more than here.

 

[Jakey53]

This is a valid point in an argument against noone. I think we all (or most) agree that the team is better.

I'm very confident that in 2.5 years the group of Murphy, Deangelo and Necas will be close to on par with the group of Stepan and Hjalmarsson. In 4years the younger group will be flat out better and Hjalmarsson will be set to retire. I think we gave up too much in talented youth at the wrong time.

You could argue that the new vets will shelter our remaining youth, I just think UFA vets (aka free assets) could have done that as well.

Name them. The UFA's were mostly crap this year.

 

[Hinterland]

Give it a rest. Murphy is a good kid and probably well liked but I sure do not see him as a better leader than the guys you mentioned. I like Murphy as a person but he is a third pairing Dman. IF he gets sheltered, like OEL did for him, he might end up a second pairing in a pinch.

If you play with OEL, you have to cover for him...that's what Murphy did...pretty well actually. But even if he was a 3rd pairing defender, he could still be a great captain. Who says only stars can be great captains? I think that's just stupid. Say about Murphy what you want but he's a warrior and a perfect pro both on and off the ice. True leadership material.

 

[Hinterland]

Name them. The UFA's were mostly crap this year.

There were a few pretty good ones out there and there are still a few good depth players available. Del Zotto would have been very interesting for example. Chayka probably just has his pants wet because of McGinn.

 

[Jakey53]

If you play with OEL, you have to cover for him...that's what Murphy did...pretty well actually. But even if he was a 3rd pairing defender, he could still be a great captain. Who says only stars can be great captains? I think that's just stupid. Say about Murphy what you want but he's a warrior and a perfect pro both on and off the ice. True leadership material.

Again, OEL has not played his game because he was covering for whomever he was playing with. Murphy can't cover s---. He would retrieve the puck, if he even got to the puck, turn around and bang it off the boards. The opposition would always throw the puck on the opposite side of OEL because they knew they had a much better chance of getting the puck back. Murphy and Stone had their chance to step up their game and both failed miserably.