WJC: 2017 Finland Roster Talk

[Erikfromfin]

Add Ivan Hlinka tournament. At least we can enjoy watching are young guys playing in the NHL.

+ U17 hockey challenge was failure aswell

 

[Loffer]

As some guys have chimed in already, it was only too good to last, namely the last year's general and wide-ranging success for the Finns. Now the flip side of the wicked coin has landed on the ice cold steely ice and we are staring at the other extreme of the continuum in Finnish hockey. The real level of our hockey lies of course somewhere in between these extremities still. But sure, usually you have to pay for your extravagant success in the stream of life if you don't beware, if you are careless and don't pay attention to the details needed for the success and/or turn too overconfident, complacent and whatnot.

This was to be expected given the specs. And the life of a Finnish hockey follower is just another roller coaster. - And you ride it. Like it or not.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

I hear coach wants them to play agency hockey (virkamieskiekko). If true, fire the coach staff, let em play.

If that was the case how come right before the trial in fire against Sweden the players rebelled, taking reigns? The government is build to protect the system, not the players. This continuum was the reason behind China's almost eternal success.

Neither Jortikka or Rautakorpi are meidän peli orientated coaches. It was not meidän peli that lost this morning but Finnish ice hockey. In Finnish ice hockey meidän peli, after all the success in five years, is almost a separatist movement, surrounded by foreign influences and ideas. I don't know if meidän peli can survive in the long run but it is not for the lack of results.

For players more important than result in youth games I think would be showcasig the ability to adapt. Carrying the team with your strength in any case. Now we have ridiculous circus when kids and their ever increasing hangaround posses are still showing the American irresisteble individualism despite Jortikka's forewarning. You got rid of the big bad Jortikka but in the big picture I believe this phenomenon of crazy indi drive is far more alarming when it constantly overrides veteran leadership in coaching positions.

They could have relied on Rautakorpi or Jortikka, building a formidable defence similar to what the Blue Jackets have based 14 of their latest victories on. They had it their way. United they could have had all the support in the world to go far in this tournament.

 

[Esko6]

Same coach has led Finland to relegation games before.

 

[FiLe]

Technically, it's nothing unsual to lose a couple of ice hockey games in a row. Or to have some technically competent coaches behind the bench. Or to score only four goals in three games

But technically we are witnessing also the reality of facing the relegation round after the title last year. Technically it is also possible that Finland gets relegated. And technically it might turn into a real reality also, if things go really bad, I mean: technically.

Hardy har har.

I merely pointed out that having a specialist 5-on-3 unit is not an unusual idea, so the coach certainly wasn't tripping when they put one out there.

But now that I've said that again, may I draw your attention to the fact that I also indicated that the implementation of said idea was highly inept... as have been most other things with this management group. I certainly wasn't excusing them for anything. Right idea, lousy execution.

 

[Loffer]

If that was the case how come right before the trial in fire against Sweden the players rebelled, taking reigns? The government is build to protect the system, not the players. This continuum was the reason behind China's almost eternal success.

Neither Jortikka or Rautakorpi are meidän peli orientated coaches. It was not meidän peli that lost this morning but Finnish ice hockey. In Finnish ice hockey meidän peli, after all the success in five years, is almost a separatist movement, surrounded by foreign influences and ideas. I don't know if meidän peli can survive in the long run but it is not for the lack of results.

For players more important than result in youth games I think would be showcasig the ability to adapt. Carrying the team with your strength in any case. Now we have ridiculous circus when kids and their ever increasing hangaround posses are still showing the American irresisteble individualism despite Jortikka's forewarning. You got rid of the big bad Jortikka but in the big picture I believe this phenomenon of crazy indi drive is far more alarming when it constantly overrides veteran leadership in coaching positions.

They could have relied on Rautakorpi or Jortikka, building a formidable defence similar to what the Blue Jackets have based 14 of their latest victories on. They had it their way. United they could have had all the support in the world to go far in this tournament.

Maybe, maybe not - in a perfect world. Yet the truth holds that this downfall goes to coaches, and to coaches only. Rautakorpi should have exercised and shown authority, leadership, competence, confidence. But he did not. There is always a reason for rebellions and revolutions. If the government or leadership sucks and yields or delivers and distributes no fruits of a good administration then we have a civil war or revolution. Simple.

Our game or not. It was something too complicated, detailded or inert for these vibrant kids and the NA rink game. Assign some relaxed and capable Karri Kivi to coach the U20 team from here until the fall of heavens - if this Ahokas dude cannot get it done next year given they stay in the top division.

You need the right man to coach these kids. Someone who masters the mental and tactical side alike and who shows the acumen needed for the job. Well, heck. Even I could do it, better than those [MOD]. And mr. FiLe should be a success with capital letters. But these jobs are dealed in the fashion of cabinet politics. And so we will have "our game" on our face.

 

[Tuoppi]

That is what you get when they plock the best players from the team. That doesn't explain World cup failure though. Finland hasn't usually been good in small ice tournaments with some exeptions like World cup 2004.

 

[Periwinkle]

The players themselves are fine. The coaching is absolutely dreadful, though.

I have to disagree with this. The players do share some of the blame. I can't for the life of me figure out why our players' shooting skills can be so sub-par in comparison to other teams. It should not be a special skill to actually manage an actual shot on goal, rather than 1 metre off it. This seems to be epidemic no matter what the age class.

Similarly, not scoring on 5 on 3 is on the players and their lack of finishing skills.

That being said, if this is "it", at least we exit from the medal rounds in a respectful manner. There was effort and heart in yesterday's game. To me it seemed the aggressive, relentless forechecking in the first part of the game cost us later in the game as the players couldn't maintain the same level of intensity for 60 minutes. Which is understandable, and a reason why we should have converted on the PP's. I don't know if Sweden couldn't keep up in the beginning or if they played with patience and were rewarded for it, but in any case, it worked this time.

Tolvanen, Vesalainen etc are still young and perhaps last year's heroics raised the expectations too high as to assuming the young guys can carry us again. It still a "19-year-olds' tournament" for the most part. Maybe next year is another story.

If that was the case how come right before the trial in fire against Sweden the players rebelled, taking reigns? The government is build to protect the system, not the players. This continuum was the reason behind China's almost eternal success.

Neither Jortikka or Rautakorpi are meidän peli orientated coaches. It was not meidän peli that lost this morning but Finnish ice hockey. In Finnish ice hockey meidän peli, after all the success in five years, is almost a separatist movement, surrounded by foreign influences and ideas. I don't know if meidän peli can survive in the long run but it is not for the lack of results.

For players more important than result in youth games I think would be showcasig the ability to adapt. Carrying the team with your strength in any case. Now we have ridiculous circus when kids and their ever increasing hangaround posses are still showing the American irresisteble individualism despite Jortikka's forewarning. You got rid of the big bad Jortikka but in the big picture I believe this phenomenon of crazy indi drive is far more alarming when it constantly overrides veteran leadership in coaching positions.

They could have relied on Rautakorpi or Jortikka, building a formidable defence similar to what the Blue Jackets have based 14 of their latest victories on. They had it their way. United they could have had all the support in the world to go far in this tournament.

I find your take really bizarre. If I understand correctly, you think the only way Finland should play is through a defense wall, i.e. trapping the hell out of every meaningful game, and this type of hockey is "eternal Finnish way of playing" and should be defended no matter time and place [insert war jargon here]. In case you are not trolling, I guess I can see your point if you are happy with a title win every ten years and a whole bunch of silvers and other mediocre achievements no one remembers except with bitterness of another loss.

For me at least, I'd rather watch a combination of team play and shining individual skills, now that we seem to be producing enough high-end talent for this to be actually possible. That doesn't mean I look down on any win that has resulted from "the Finnish way", but why not move forward when time and place require and enable it?

I do agree with you on that meidän peli has become a meaningless buzzword that is offered to explain any loss or shortcoming in Finnish hockey.

 

[Love Me Goaltender]

A real Jekyll and Hyde year for Finnish hockey. Two junior gold medals in the spring, two humiliations in the WCH and WJC in the fall.

Our junior development is not as great as those gold medals made it seem like, but of course we are as bad as it looks like now either. But I think that in a longer run, this was a good wake up call. There is still work to be done to catch up to the Big Four. Luckily for us, there are still like 8 countries overall playing ice hockey in the world, so we will always stay close to the top.

 

[Tuoppi]

Our past strengths goaltending and coaching have failed us. Also the emerging hockey nations are challenging us.

 

[RageQuit77]

Nothing good and long lasting almost ever come from a total rejection of working concept, and substituting it with un-tested concepts in haste. They need now make very deep depth-analysis there, not to go un-thought panic measures that can make only things worse. I don't recommend dramatic changes to the Finnish way generally as it has been very succesful for decades and it is also extensively tested against world's tops, but how essential changes for further development to it are implement correctly, and balanced way, that's where the most work has to be done.

It's BS hyberpole if claiming that sort of plaque blend of NA-style individualism has contaminated "Pure Finnish way", as we would have been Olympic and WC champions already long time ago if we would've suffered even little bit more from the symptoms of that plaque in the past.

A Problem probably resides in the asymmetry of perception and practical application between systemic white-collar guys, and hard-working staffs of junior development programs, not in a rink. It's probably at least partially communication issue. Finland doesn't lose it's relatively good depth in one or two nights either.

Instead, Few tens of thousands extra shots at backyard of the rinks wouldn't do bad for every guys wearing NT-sweaters, tho.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Finland will take it next year. Tolvanen-Räsänen-Vesalainen will be the top line and Ahokas the head coach.

 

[FiLe]

I have to disagree with this. The players do share some of the blame. I can't for the life of me figure out why our players' shooting skills can be so sub-par in comparison to other teams. It should not be a special skill to actually manage an actual shot on goal, rather than 1 metre off it. This seems to be epidemic no matter what the age class.

The thing is, most of these players have no trouble finding the back of net in their club teams. So there's something to this squad specifically that makes them all tense. Which does turn the eyes back on the management.

If this was a team made of men, I'd shovel part of the blame on players themselves, because it's a big weakness for an fully grown player if he locks up so badly that he forgets the tenets of his trade. But these are still kids. Having individuals with the necessary mental strength is a goal to aim for, but these differences between men and juniors are still facts of life one has to deal with. And Liitto's inability to take them into account is nothing but baffling at this point. It's not the first time they've touched this hot stove. Not even the second.

Of course, they have been left in a pinch a few times, because a capable coach is hard to hang on to. Both Kivi and Jalonen had multi-year contracts, but being too good for the job meant they were quickly whisked away for greener pastures. I have been willing to excuse Liitto in the past for some stale picks, because these departures have left them scrambling for options. But by now they should have learnt that simply looking at the leftovers in the sauna roster is not going to cut it.

Tolvanen, Vesalainen etc are still young and perhaps last year's heroics raised the expectations too high as to assuming the young guys can carry us again. It still a "19-year-olds' tournament" for the most part. Maybe next year is another story.

This I can easily agree with. There's still a reason why coaches try to avoid picking too many underagers. I had to shake my head when some stargazers in this very thread would have picked a team with even more of them. At best, one can wonder if they took the right underagers to complement the older players, but even that requires a bit of hindsight.

Yet there's no reason to throw the players eligible to return next year under the bus either. For example, look at Puljujärvi. The year between 2015 and 2016 made a galaxy of difference for him. Well, that and more competent coaching.


As an aside, the biggest question mark and source of worry before the games - namely, Vehviläinen - is hard to blame at all. Well, we probably would have averted a complete disaster if he hadn't let in some stinkers vs. Denmark, but in reality that loss was not his fault at all. You can't call out the goalie when the team in front of him can't score its way out of a wet paper bag.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Yet there's no reason to throw the players eligible to return next year under the bus either. For example, look at Puljujärvi. The year between 2015 and 2016 made a galaxy of difference for him. Well, that and more competent coaching.

Did the MVP selection serve any good for Puljujärvi in the end? Harsh reality hit next season already. Jortikka was let down by the same Puljujärvi the Oilers drafted. Did anything change for the player?

I believe this tournament builds culture for the proper national team and beyond. Since we are not talking of professionals or people who cannot be easily converted I believe it is unfair for the players themselves, to let them drift further away into the world of agents, North America and money. These young geezers cannot even order proper rye bread to be brought from the land of thousands of lakes so how could they draw winning playbook for Finland or really determine what is truly the best for them.

 

[RageQuit77]

These young geezers cannot even order proper rye bread to be brought from the land of thousands of lakes so how could they draw winning playbook for Finland or really determine what is truly the best for them.

I don't have to fall prone to rhetorics if pointing out that accessibility to proper rye bread have never had any good role in a processes what comes to constituting winning playbook, and even it can do that for coaches in some rare cases, it certainly won't help players to translate any kind playbooks to the ice-performances.

Finnish young guys needs to be sheltered in this matter, to a some degree (by their academic moms), I admit.

 

[Icejoker]

12 people play junior hockey in NA is that a record for a finnish U20 team ??

 

[kelsier]

The WJC was a joke for the Finns. Losing to Denmark? Please. I had bad vibes knowing Vehviläinen was going to be playing in these games but the tournament ended up being something far worse than I feared. Maybe an utter embarrassment would be the right phrase. Playing guys (like Nättinen) who simply can't score to safe their lives in the PP or top six gets you nowhere. The management doesn't learn from the past and this time there was no PuLAho to save them. Oh well, hopefully we are still in the WJC next year but even that isn't guaranteed.

 

[ijuka]

I have to disagree with this. The players do share some of the blame. I can't for the life of me figure out why our players' shooting skills can be so sub-par in comparison to other teams. It should not be a special skill to actually manage an actual shot on goal, rather than 1 metre off it. This seems to be epidemic no matter what the age class.

Similarly, not scoring on 5 on 3 is on the players and their lack of finishing skills.

Well, is it? I have to say that in general, when most / all players collectively are playing poorly, that's a coaching mistake.

The players don't have finish because the system doesn't allow for high quality scoring chances to occur frequently enough. For a high quality scoring chance, the shot doesn't have to be anything special. You just throw it towards the net and often it's either in or you get a high quality rebound.

 

[RageQuit77]

Fellas are alone there on the ice these days... if the system cannot handle with that,

We will.

 

[JJTT]

Lol Rautakorpi admitted that he hasn't watched any of the guys live in North America.

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/urheilu/art-2000005025945.html

Vaakanainen also said that they only practiced once? What the hell?

http://areena.yle.fi/1-3908878

 

[RageQuit77]

Hubris. In this sense Tulipunaruusu is not far from the truth.

Players suddenly know better their own game.

But here... exactly here goes also last room for any excuses... by the System.

Meidän peli was train wreck, only because the guys didn't - de facto - play it, after the demand.

It can't go more close then this... in the Finnish hockey. Young guys must force basic things on-ice against the coaching. Via media. LMAO!

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Watching players on tape, rewinding and all, is absolutely the right call instead of watching players with a recently bough sausage in the hand.

Vaakanainen appears to be a geezer who likes to throw his team under the bus after each loss. Bodes well for a professional career... It ain't like one NHL team (which has won 14 in a row won) would not have the same off-ice policy when preparing for game days.

Both Jortikka and Rautakorpi were stabbed by the brutuses they were hired to coach.

 

[RageQuit77]

Finnish media should also tone down little bit. Journalists can act only as a bad catalyst in this situation. Good journalistic standards do not include or necessitate for being ****hole.

Keep it in the sphere where it should stay, journalist.

 

[Loffer]

What?!?

They are kids; then they are "adults". Make up your mind already. This fiasco is the coaches and only their fault. It is that simple.

 

[Past Considerations]

Oh well, these things happen - you can't win every year... Literally.

Anyway, one modest wish would be that they would take the u20 team with bit more respect in the Federation and among the coaches. I know that it is more important for us to have the few top talents in every age group than succeed as a team but this is still an important tournament and important team. They just don't seem to get it.

But they seem to get it every other year. Which is all the more perplexing. And since the next coach is Ahokas, rule still stands. It seems like they give the job to a good coach when one is really available (Kivi, Jalonen, Ahokas) and when not, they give it as a present to some old loyal buddy (Helminen, Rindell, partly Jortikka).