WJC: 2017 Finland Roster Talk

[RageQuit77]

How even hazy dream about retired Kale making come back doesn't feel too far fetched now... like Cincinnatus interrupted amidst his agricultural workings.

Kale's [MOD] had notoriously some effect to the lineups.

References: Google and study about "Management by [MOD]".

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Also, Liitto's financials are exemplary. Even that ticket price farce ended up being beneficial in the long run. They made a poo-ton of money out of that. While again, people spoke derisively about saunas worth of million euros and such, Lion's share of those monies actually went straight into junior development. So while they spoiled those games' atmosphere, they, ironically enough, made many a junior's day far brighter with it in the end.

While Kummola earns all the credit for his his role in Finnish ice hockey's domestic rise you have to keep in mind that ice hockey already at that time (and had been for a relatively long time) was absolutely the biggest sport in Finland media and attendances hence the arrogance which could be afforded.

It is like with the golden age talk. If the only comparison is the horrible age classes sure it looks great now but if you add the previous timeline when Finnish super star prospects rose, aka the context, has the situation even improved or is the Finnish junior machine even as competitive as it could be? Given that closest comparison point, culturally and in resources, is not Latvia but Sweden and Denmark.

Especially now that meidän peli could be forsaken these are the questions. Who is to say whether Finnish coaching staff either will reach the heights of Summanen, Westerlund and J. Jalonen if we abandon meidän peli which brought gold medals at good rate.

 

[QnebO]

Kummola actually was an excellent cabinet player. Many thought him self-serving, but he made a ton of backroom deals that chiefly benefited Finnish hockey first and foremost, not himself. Also, Liitto's financials are exemplary. Even that ticket price farce ended up being beneficial in the long run. They made a poo-ton of money out of that. While again, people spoke derisively about saunas worth of million euros and such, Lion's share of those monies actually went straight into junior development. So while they spoiled those games' atmosphere, they, ironically enough, made many a junior's day far brighter with it in the end.

Yet it has to be said that Der Kanzler also meddled with the actual hockey operations too much at times, leaving a ton of what ifs in his wake. Though I must say, when you look at the medal table posted above, it's hard to say if seemingly more competent people could have done much better. But regardless, if Kale had stuck to doing stuff he was proven to be good at, many people would remember him much more fondly.

This is all agreeable. Cabinet plays specially was what he did. Got few biases refs banned, helped with game schedules many times. When he started at Liitto, hockey wasnt even 1st sport in Finland and our team wasnt anywhere near top level. He has been in for whole raise and knew what to do.

Kale hasnt been given the respect he deserves. He was a dictator but dictatorship is common in private sector, nothing wrong with it. You cant let every clueless member vote, if you want succes.

Main reason he got so much hate was casual beer drinking fans, old ladies, mothers and metsuris, who were provocated to hate him by iltalehti ans such. While those people never even played the sport, they "knew" who shouldnt lead it.

 

[Lempo]

While again, people spoke derisively about saunas worth of million euros and such, Lion's share of those monies actually went straight into junior development.

It was me specifically referring to it in this thread, so to elaborate, I find it good and proper that the Federation has a fancy sauna because as a sauna institution I feel it's really second only to Kekkonen's sauna. As the vaunted sauna diplomacy more or less projects to be of gone world's, what with the women's emergence to the political and economical elites putting some strain on the purest form of it, the Hockey Federation feels really like the last bastion of it.

"We'll build a heck of a sauna with it" of course it what any Finnish man should say when getting his hands on resources, and the excess-sounding amount of money only says that they're serious about it.

It's just that with the public and societal nature of the whole she-bang that is Hockey in Finland, financing included, this sort of gaffe in nominating a coach to a Lions team is unacceptable, and Kale as the responsible one for that nomination being loudly asking among the first about what the hell Urama is doing behind the bench with his nominee coach... it's an all arms flailing response that brings to mind the "but the B sample is clean" nonsense when those couple of guys had failed an unofficial, intra-team drug test on cannabis in KHL.

 

[RageQuit77]

Your analysis about Saunas and Finnish Guys is very fitting, Lempo. I only note that essentially same "she-banging" gang inaugurally (in the world) and unanimously granted a certificate to enter to the men's sport league for the great pioneer HHOF Hayley Wickenheiser.

Probably that decision was made in a Sauna too, regardless of opinions of, and without presence of woman politicians.

Wickenheiser bulldozed the roadblock and cleared path for her sisters for years to come.

 

[Lempo]

I must emphasise my analysis is very much ON-topic before anyone gets all mod on it: otherwise inexplicable nominations, dealings and such are in Finland understood to happen on account of the nominator and nominee (or comparables) being each other's sauna buddies, and the Federation with their notorious million dollar sauna is very much void of any plausible deniability on that.

 

[FiLe]

It's just that with the public and societal nature of the whole she-bang that is Hockey in Finland, financing included, this sort of gaffe in nominating a coach to a Lions team is unacceptable, and Kale as the responsible one for that nomination being loudly asking among the first about what the hell Urama is doing behind the bench with his nominee coach... it's an all arms flailing response that brings to mind the "but the B sample is clean" nonsense when those couple of guys had failed an unofficial, intra-team drug test on cannabis in KHL.

I agree. It's exactly like I said, if Kale had stuck to politicking and left the actual hockey operations and personnel selection to more capable hands, we wouldn't have much to complain about. Now we do, and most of those complaints are very much justified. When Kummola got some dung flung his way for stupid decisions Liitto made, he (most of the time) absolutely deserved it. To stay on topic: He deserves some flak for hiring Rautakorpi too. However, when you study him and his dealings more closely, you'll have to say that, in the end, the good outweighed the bad.

Yet, while Kummola was able to utilize the sauna buddy culture to a great effect, that's not to say those old power bastions shouldn't be felled. The fact that we chanced upon a leader who was able to do some good within the system doesn't mean everyone can. In most cases, the only result is glaring corruption and incompetence. So-called "enlightened dictators" are extremely rare, and we definitely need more checks and balances going forward.

 

[RageQuit77]

An impact Kale made to the Liitto is that enormous and long time it is very well possible his absense makes it dysfunctional now. Kale himself was that 'check' and 'balance', and "enlightened dictator" isn't bad definition in this context.

What ever people may think about him, nobody can truly deny that he loves the sport.

On the other hand, all dealings of Liitto over years combined gives an impression of an organised crime cartel what comes to day-to-day running of the Co. It's easy to see mental images of a police's organisation charts of Gambino Crime Family, circulating domains of Capo-regimes, internal rivalries between cohorts of soldiers and so on... Historically.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kale just made another statement for a tabloid, when what really happened was that old God-Father himself made a call to his acting Sub-Boss and his consiglieres after watching a WJC game from his home sofa...

...for eradicating failing Capo-regime asap.

Of course this only assumption, and proofs are going to be hard to pick up for it... but still.

 

[Fables]

I quess everyone agrees that this year has been a huge disappointment... regardless of the lower expectations compared to last year. And a lot of talk has been on the coaching.

But talking about actual roster again a few things have caught my eye when I have suffered though the games.
Some players may have rather similar points totals but their performance grade should not be similar at all.

First thing is that Janne Kuokkanen and Julius Nättinen should have close to 10 goals between them by now. They have missed so many open nets or great scoring changes. Just very poor execution in those situations.

The other thing is that especially lately Borgstrom has been very good and very unlucky not to have 5-10 points. He has hit the iron a few times and created many great scoring changes his line mates have not been able to finish (see Kuokkanen)

 

[Asiantuntija]

I hate to say this but group looks like some ******* on the ice. I don't know is there really some problems with our players attitude or why too many of them looks like they don't give 100% on ice. Puljujärvi would make a big difference in confidence and attitude.

 

[Loffer]

My immediate impression of this years roster: Midgets with short legs again except some Koivula, Naettinen, Kuokkanen (?). I don't care to check the exact measures but they do look again small guys with no reach at all. Watching Latvia Finland the Baltians lookes much bigger meaning taller and equipped with longer legs and arms which made them look also better skater and what not.

So much about the new bigger body Finnish generation of hockeyists, what??

Maybe it is not only that Finnish soccer gets sucked out of some athletic talent by ice hockey but also hockey does lose some bigger athletic kids with long reach to the emerging booming sports of basket ball and volley ball in Finland and what we've got left are once again these midget dwarf type players with unproportionally short legs (the Saarela type?) which are known by Finnish vernacular by the not so flattering notion "persjalkainen". These guys might have a low centre of gravity and related motoric advantages like a good balance but in the big picture they are just small dwarf type of players who would serve better on a wrestling carpet than in a hockey rink.

And an aesthetical person as I am there is also the question of style and grace. There is typically no or little style & grace in the movements, skating and manoeuvres, of Finnish ice hockey players doing their diligent "our inferior game" thing on ice.

More flair and style to the Finnish on ice execution, per favore!

 

[Loffer]

My immediate impression of this years roster: Midgets with short legs again except some Koivula, Naettinen, Kuokkanen (?). I don't care to check the exact measures but they do look again small guys with no reach at all. Watching Latvia Finland the Baltians lookes much bigger meaning taller and equipped with longer legs and arms which made them look also better skater and what not.

So much about the new bigger body Finnish generation of hockeyists, what??

Maybe it is not only that Finnish soccer gets sucked out of some athletic talent by ice hockey but also hockey does lose some bigger athletic kids with long reach to the emerging booming sports of basket ball and volley ball in Finland and what we've got left are once again these midget dwarf type players with unproportionally short legs (the Saarela type?) which are known by Finnish vernacular by the not so flattering notion "persjalkainen". These guys might have a low centre of gravity and related motoric advantages like a good balance but in the big picture they are just small dwarf type of players who would serve better on a wrestling carpet than in a hockey rink.

And an aesthetical person as I am there is also the question of style and grace. There is typically no or little style & grace in the movements, skating and manoeuvres, of Finnish ice hockey players doing their diligent "our inferior game" thing on ice.

More flair and style to the Finnish on ice execution, per favore!

And the lack of style and grace, or the "poetry of movement", characterizing typical Finnish U20 team etc. is just and mainly due to the syndrome of "persjalkaisuus" , that is the short legged, stocky dwarf type of body of a Finnish hockey player. Add on top of that the notorious "our inferior game" and what you do have is the non-flair Finnish ice hockey I envisioned being gradually history by these bigger skilled relatively well skating guys like Laine, Pulju et al.

But little did I know. - And after saying this I am off to an outdoor rink near me. Join if you dare!

 

[TheFinnishTrap]

Finland is notably less physical IMO. I believe both our U20 and U18 teams had crazy average heights last year, and the guys were strong as well. This group is very raw physically, which plays a part in board battles and probably affects the mental side as well. A Ristolainen on defense could make a big difference, as we just aren't really intimidating at the moment.

 

[FiLe]

Finland is notably less physical IMO.

Which is a big reason why most of our U20 coaches favor elder players. This group oozes raw skill, but that skill isn't doing them much if they lose the physical battles.

Well, I have seen certain posters pining after certain underagers because they're *big* underagers. To them I'd like to say that size does not equal physicality. A big body doesn't help a kid if he doesn't know how to use that body. If one does, you usually can expect to see them pretty high in mock drafts.

"Well, what about the intimidation factor?" have some asked. "When you see a big guy, you're far less likely to mess with them." To them I always say that said factor - while useful in avoiding those 2AM sausage stand fights - is actually more or less non-existent in hockey, at least in top-level hockey. It's a fast game where decisions are made in fractions of a second. Even if you're a smaller kid, but with the right attitude, you simply don't have the time to size up the opposing guy. If you do stop and take the time, you're not a very good player then. U20 elite division is pretty high-level and players that bad are not very common.

 

[Loffer]

Which is a big reason why most of our U20 coaches favor elder players. This group oozes raw skill, but that skill isn't doing them much if they lose the physical battles.

Well, I have seen certain posters pining after certain underagers because they're *big* underagers. To them I'd like to say that size does not equal physicality. A big body doesn't help a kid if he doesn't know how to use that body. If one does, you usually can expect to see them pretty high in mock drafts.

"Well, what about the intimidation factor?" have some asked. "When you see a big guy, you're far less likely to mess with them." To them I always say that said factor - while useful in avoiding those 2AM sausage stand fights - is actually more or less non-existent in hockey, at least in top-level hockey. It's a fast game where decisions are made in fractions of a second. Even if you're a smaller kid, but with the right attitude, you simply don't have the time to size up the opposing guy. If you do stop and take the time, you're not a very good player then. U20 elite division is pretty high-level and players that bad are not very common.

Might indeed be the case. Even in outdoor hockey. Lol. But that's maybe cuz the contact is nonexistent in there.

Yet, and by the same token referring to my previous posts, it is not only the "physicality" one can benefit from a big body/size but things like reach and protecting the puck which factors once again gave me also a certain advantage against enthusiastic buzzing junior and what not players in an outdoor rink tonight. Too bad, my fitness level needs a few "rechecks" before I can enter the beast mode in those games. Lol

That's what one should be able to derive from the size advantage since an advantage it is. Some Otto Koivula or what was his name (and co.) could be a big factor in there if he used his body more consistently to protect the puck and make plays from there.

Also, the common "persjalkaisuus" among Finnish players is eo ipso & per se an unfortunate genetic fact and ethnic tendency/trait which in itself cuts off some of the flair from the traditional Finnish game compared to - I dunno - almost any other nation! It is really mind-boggling when you think about it. I think the Finns are simply the most "persjalkainen" people of any western demographic group or nationality. And since sports like basketball and volleyball harvest the majority of athletically oriented exceptions to the rule in Finland nowadays - the phenomenon keeps annoying me watching Finnish NTs buzzing on the ice even against inferior opponents like Latvia which exemplifies Baltic long strides with limbs of dimension in abundance among their squad rendering their movement more delightful to an aesthetic eye like mine.

You can be whatever opinion about this or - even and most likely - refrain from commenting which (an "awkward silence") only testifies about the validity of my point. And if you disagree or think it is irrelevant you are simply wrong on two counts: 1) the advantage gained via extra reach and better protection; 2) the grace and style of movement which point has also its relevance in the point 1: Better dangles and dekes are the one which have the "Lemieux esque flair" due to reach and style.

The next point of priority and emphasis in Finnish hockey junior program should be here. No kidding: Favour those players who have long limbs and light stride. And direct fast forward the "persjalkaiset" to a wrestling hall.

 

[Loffer]

^ To add and elaborate: It is reasonable to infer there is also a hidden or not tendency or a 'shadow agenda' in Finnish junior system still which favours quite contrary those players who have this traditional 'stocky short limb' aka "persjalkainen" body type. And this tendency further "distorts" the Team Finland "samples" in this regards.

Thus I present the following hypotheses and claim: In Finnish - outdated and obsolete - ice hockey "culture" there are still prevalent some odd physiognomic views according to which a stocky build "pyknic" is more athletic (and "tough") an as such more suitable to hockey than a more long limbed and less stocky "leptosome" types by some global assessment of the given type.

And the results are only unfortunate. Since accordingly Finnish hockey misses many of these "projects" who could and should in average turn better players in long term than the the more mature and quicker developing "pyknic athletic" types.

A corollary: There are too many 'rube elements' in Finnish hockey still. Which is only understandable by the history of the game but it is time for an academic revolution also in hockey culture and general coaching circles. A thing that took place in European soccer already earlier and is still evolving within the sport.

 

[Loffer]

^ To further add and elaborate (sorry, my edit option is 'defunct' for the time being lol): Finnish hockey needs more cerebral players of exquisite vision and play making skills. It is no accident the few top tier centers or play makers of the younger age groups are sons of former players in the respective clubs: Barkov jr. and Sebastian Aho. They have had a special environment for them to grow and develop their special skill sets and acumen for the game.

Thus, it is obvious the general mindset and atmosphere prevailing in Finnish hockey still neglects or is, at least, not favorable for the development of such players or player types who could be characterized as "intellectuals of the game" (or "professors") or even intellectuals by their general outlook. Okay, some Aapeli Raesaenen might to have some such qualities in him but he ain't a top tier prospect anyway and hardly will be Aho level center or playmaker ever.

This must change also going forward: More cerebral players (centers) to Finnish hockey, per favore!

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

Finally this nightmare is over.
These U20 WJC's will remembered how defending U20 world-champion failed as a team and saved for relegation.
Also firing head coach and three his assistants during the tournament is something which has never happened in the past.

Hopefully next year in Buffalo we'll see Finland back in medal podium.
And only result which satisfies me next years tournament is only U20 WJC GOLD MEDAL.

 

[FinPanda]

This tournament has been a rollercoaster for us. 2013 relegation round, 2014 gold, 2015 QF exit, 2016 gold, 2017 this nightmare..

It can't be worse next year. So gold maybe?

 

[chauron]

This tournament has been a rollercoaster for us. 2013 relegation round, 2014 gold, 2015 QF exit, 2016 gold, 2017 this nightmare..

It can't be worse next year. So gold maybe?

All-in every other year. The games are in Buffalo so small rink curse is also there...

 

[Canucks LB]

Craig Button was on tsn1040 and was perplexed at how the coaching staff handled finland, especially Juolevi. Mentioned he is a 3 zone player, should have played way more.

 

[Opak]

Craig Button was on tsn1040 and was perplexed at how the coaching staff handled finland, especially Juolevi. Mentioned he is a 3 zone player, should have played way more.

Before or after the coach firing?