NHL Entry Draft 2017 Draft Talk

[edguy]

Are there any guys projected in the late first/early second round who are known to be a bit chippy? They don't score as many points as the Patrick's of this draft, but they are difficult to play against and aren't a black hole offensively?

We could use a player like that.

As much as I hate him, think Brendan Gallagher. But bigger, like at least six feet tall.

The one guy I always come back to when this is brought up is Kole Lind. He needs to fill out his frame a bit at 6'1 176, but he has the drive, back checks hard, great in front of the net. Once he fills out a bit I think he could be a real threat.

Another guy I'm learning a bit about is Isaac Ratcliffe, he has great size at 6'5 196 (obviously will need to add muscle but for his age, he's on the right track), He uses his size more to his advantage then to just be "chippy" though.

 

[Countdown0]

The one guy I always come back to when this is brought up is Kole Lind. He needs to fill out his frame a bit at 6'1 176, but he has the drive, back checks hard, great in front of the net. Once he fills out a bit I think he could be a real threat.

Another guy I'm learning a bit about is Isaac Ratcliffe, he has great size at 6'5 196 (obviously will need to add muscle but for his age, he's on the right track), He uses his size more to his advantage then to just be "chippy" though.

I mean, I definitely wouldn't complain about a 6'5 guy who actually uses his size, as long as he wasn't a liability due to speed. How is his skating? Does using his size to his advantage mean he actually hits guys and pushes people around, or does he just kind of not move when other people shove him?

Lind sounds like a promising option. Front of net presence always translates to success if you keep doing it.

I do think that with our luck neither guy will be available.

 

[edguy]

I mean, I definitely wouldn't complain about a 6'5 guy who actually uses his size, as long as he wasn't a liability due to speed. How is his skating? Does using his size to his advantage mean he actually hits guys and pushes people around, or does he just kind of not move when other people shove him?

Lind sounds like a promising option. Front of net presence always translates to success if you keep doing it.

I do think that with our luck neither guy will be available.

Ratcliffe's skating is ok for his size. At his size skating is never going to be excellent.. but i wouldn't say it hinders his abilities.
As for what i meant by using his size; i meant he uses it to win battles both along the boards and front of the net.

As for Lind, he's a guy I first identified as wanting around Xmas. But I've kind of cooled off on him.. the issue with Lind is alot of other prospects kept getting better and better as the season went on and he just kind of stagnated. Which isnt a horrible thing, because he was/is still a good prospect.. The issue is his upside is limited to about a 3rd liner.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I really don't get the fascination with Lind. He's a '98 that had 41P in 70GP in his proper draft year, and just put up 87P in 70GP in his 18YR old season on a really good team. That's not 1st round production.

Have to assume people are not taking his late birthday into consideration and/or are putting too much stock into his great performance at the top prospects game.

Ratcliffe is a different story entirely. 6'6 kid with a great skating and shot combination. Needs to bulk up badly, but once he does he'll be incredibly hard to stop flying down the wing. He would be an amazing pick at 28, but I expect him to go top 20, if not top 15.

 

[JungleBeat]

I really don't get the fascination with Lind. He's a '98 that had 41P in 70GP in his proper draft year, and just put up 87P in 70GP in his 18YR old season on a really good team. That's not 1st round production.

He's a first year draft eligible. This is his proper draft year even though he's older. But I do agree that he's nothing special. Don't want him.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Are there any guys projected in the late first/early second round who are known to be a bit chippy? They don't score as many points as the Patrick's of this draft, but they are difficult to play against and aren't a black hole offensively?

We could use a player like that.

As much as I hate him, think Brendan Gallagher. But bigger, like at least six feet tall.

Comtois may have potential to be that guy.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Ratcliffe's skating is ok for his size. At his size skating is never going to be excellent.. but i wouldn't say it hinders his abilities.
As for what i meant by using his size; i meant he uses it to win battles both along the boards and front of the net.

As for Lind, he's a guy I first identified as wanting around Xmas. But I've kind of cooled off on him.. the issue with Lind is alot of other prospects kept getting better and better as the season went on and he just kind of stagnated. Which isnt a horrible thing, because he was/is still a good prospect.. The issue is his upside is limited to about a 3rd liner.

Even though Lind has a later birthday I like his style more that Ratcliffe .. Lind is more finished. Ratcliffe is very gangly, does not play big from a body contact point of view. I find him harder to project , I guess he needs to fill out and seems like more of a project to me.

 

[Hale The Villain]

He's a first year draft eligible. This is his proper draft year even though he's older. But I do agree that he's nothing special. Don't want him.

I'm not saying the NHL made an error and he should have been drafted last year, but he's a '98 and this is the '99 draft year.

He was born in the same year as Brown. The only reason he's being drafted in 2017 instead of 2016 is because he was born a little later in the year, which means very little, if anything at all, in differentiating him in performance from other 2016 draftees. All it means is instead of drafting him last year, teams get an extra year to look at him before using a draft pick on him.

Therefore, any comparisons of him to '99 born kids who are to be drafted this year must take into consideration this was his 18YR season, while the '99 born kids just played their 17YR season.

There seems to be a HF-wide phenomenon where people overrate late-birthdays because they don't understand that they are 1 draft-year older than their competition.

 

[JungleBeat]

I'm not saying the NHL made an error and he should have been drafted last year, but he's a '98 and this is the '99 draft year.

He was born in the same year as Brown. The only reason he's being drafted in 2017 instead of 2016 is because he was born a little later in the year, which means very little, if anything at all, in differentiating him in performance from other 2016 draftees. All it means is instead of drafting him last year, teams get an extra year to look at him before using a draft pick on him.

I don't have a problem with taking into account that he's older than most of the prospects in this draft and that's an advantage but saying that this isn't is proper draft year is just plain wrong.

He was a rookie in the WHL last year so he has the same amount as major junior experience as most in this class. You can't exactly look at his numbers from last year like you can do with another older player like Yamamoto since this is his third year in the WHL. Would you say that Dahlen should have been drafted in 2015?

 

[BondraTime]

NHL scouts take development years into account, the difference between a 98' and 99' is quite significant. A guy like Patrick, who would have been a high pick last year if he was born 4 days earlier, is much different then a guy like Lind, who if born 30 days earlier likely doesn't crack the first 3/4 rounds in the 16' draft after his mediocre 2nd year junior eligible regular season, and absolutely horrific 0 p in 16 games playoffs.

In saying that, picking in the bottom end of the first round, those are usually the types of guys that go. Obviously he led his team in scoring in the regular season, so he wasn't leaching his points, and he saw quite a jump in production. He seems to have become a leading contributor as an 18 year old, to me that is enough for me to be happy with him in the late 20's (There are many other guys available I'd rather, but that's myself personally). He doesn't ring to many alarms for me that many do with his late birthdate, the only one being the big jump in production. In his case, I attribute it to player development and see it as a positive.

I want to point at Paul Bittner, someone that many on this board wanted in 2015, as an example of a very obvious case. That's the type of late birthday you don't take. Very obvious, leeched points off 3 of the best players in the CHL, and has since gone on to make the Blue Jackets look like fools. I thought that was very obvious in 2015, and can't believe an NHL scouting staff fell for that.

On the other end, let's look at Cliff Pu. A guy who if born 2 months later, would be in this draft. He was a steal for Buffalo in the 3rd. Where would he be slotted this year? I would think he would be a surefire guy in the 20's. Things do change over the 17-18 year old season, the task is determining the factors that brought the change.

I'm leaning more towards Lind in a Nick Foligno (extremely similar prospects, and 17/18 year old seasons) late birthday scenario than a Paul Bittner.

 

[BondraTime]

I don't have a problem with taking into account that he's older than most of the prospects in this draft and that's an advantage but saying that this isn't is proper draft year is just plain wrong.

He was a rookie in the WHL last year so he has the same amount as major junior experience as most in this class. You can't exactly look at his numbers from last year like you can do with another older player like Yamamoto since this is his third year in the WHL. Would you say that Dahlen should have been drafted in 2015?

I always look at both their birth year's and draft years, both play highly into account.

The type of jump, in comparison to teammates and roles, in both years plays a large part.

In Dahlen's case, if he were eligible in 2015, would you have been happy with him over Chlapik? At the time, I wouldn't have due to the fact I had Chlapik as a mid first round guy. But, Dahlen's season and skillset would have been a fine pick in the 2nd round. Fast forward to his draft year, and he has an unbelievable season that was worthy of a 1st round selection, and it was due to his progression (leading his team over the last 6 months). It's easier to draft guys with older birthdays from Europe, as they are usually playing with men.

In the CHL, guys may be gifted an easier season due to the small shelf life of players, and being promoted to playing with stars and playing against 16 year old guys.

I, personally, think the draft system should be birth years. The difference between both years is pretty large, even in a junior A league. The CHL is much larger.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

While development time does play a role, a lot of good players have a late birthday:

October
Mario Lemieux
Denis Potvin
Paul Kariya
Shane Doan
Chris Pronger
Phil Kessel

November
Saku Koivu
Alexei Yashin
Patrick Kane
Max Pacioretty
Taylor Hall

December
Ray Bourque
Sergei Fedorov
Daniel Alfredsson
Doug Harvey
Bob Gainey

...you get the picture.

Don't discount a guy just because he is a '98.

 

[BondraTime]

While development time does play a role, a lot of good players have a late birthday:

October
Mario Lemieux
Denis Potvin
Paul Kariya
Shane Doan
Chris Pronger
Phil Kessel

November
Saku Koivu
Alexei Yashin
Patrick Kane
Max Pacioretty
Taylor Hall

December
Ray Bourque
Sergei Fedorov
Daniel Alfredsson
Doug Harvey
Bob Gainey

...you get the picture.

Don't discount a guy just because he is a '98.

Well, yeah. That wasn't really what is being discussed. Of course there are amazing guys with late birthdays drafted every year. They need to be looked at in a different light, as with all prospects.

 

[Hale The Villain]

While development time does play a role, a lot of good players have a late birthday...............

Don't discount a guy just because he is a '98.

That's kind of missing the point though. It's not that late-birthdays can't end up being good players - anyone suggesting that is a fool. It's that their 18 year old production should not be compared to other players' 17 year old production.

Using some of the recently drafted late-birthdays you listed as examples:

Hall vs Seguin is a perfect example of what I am talking about. I remember throughout the 2010 draft year Hall's 18YR old production (as a '91) of 106P in 57GP was compared to Seguin's 17YR old production (as a '92) of 106P in 63GP, when Hall's 17YR old production of 90P in 63GP should have been the correct year used as comparison. Doing so might have made Seguin the clear favourite for #1 that year, and eliminated the surprise of him ending up as the better hockey player, as in reality at the same age he had way better production on a far worse team.

Kessel vs Toews is another example. If you compare their stats in the 2005/06 season without taking into consideration that Kessel, as a '87 born kid, was a year ahead of Toews, an '88 born kid, you'd have to think the Hawks were crazy to take Toews ahead of Kessel, since he had 39P in 42GP in the NCAA, while Kessel had 51P in 39GP. In reality, that kind of a difference in production was the result of one more year of development on the part of Kessel. In his draft+1 year (18YR old season) Toews would go on to have a better PPG than Kessel did in his 18YR old season, and so far he's produced more than Kessel at the NHL level as well.

Not taking into consideration the year a draft eligible kid was born in when making comparisons will lead to bad forecasting. I'm seeing it all over HF currently, with late-birthdays like Pettersson, Valimaki, Yamamoto, Timmins, Lind and Oettinger all getting tons of praise because of their great production compared to non-late birthdays. It's a rookie mistake.

 

[OgieO]

Months ago I was hoping for Suzuki, Glass or Pettersson but obviously I was waaaaay out to lunch thinking they'd slip to 20ish. Now we've dropped even further with the playoff run so there just isn't any chance of those three.

I do raise my eyebrow thinking about Yamamoto - such a good player but that size... just not sure.

After thinking it over, I think my favorite for our pick is Jason Robertson. Great goalscorer and I think a better playmaker than he gets credit for as his team was offensively challenged aside from him. He just didn't have as much to work with compared to other top prospects imo.

His skating needs work, but that is proven to be correctable. A gifted goal scorer imo, and those are hard to find.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Any skilled guys we can realistically nab at our position in the draft?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Drafting a forward @28 this year. There are a number of forwards that have a shot at being available to us there.

A possible (not necessarily exhaustive) unordered list is here

Comtois
Lind
Reedy
Ratcliffe
Norris
Bowers
Chytil
Robertson
Boqvist
Anderson-Dolan

Its hard to say any of these guys scream top 6 over a 3rd liner. Although some may think we need a type or a position over another , it may be interesting to rank these guys in terms of highest ceiling potential.. I guess estimating risk would also be appropriate... Add as you see fit.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Given that the possible available forwards you listed are looking like future 3rd liners with the potential to be 2nd liners (besides Robertson and Ratcliffe), I'd rather we go for a defenseman.

Give me Brook, Timmins, Vaakanainen, Jokiharju, Farrance, Joseph and Hague over Norris, Bowers, JAD, Boqvist, Comtois, Lind and Chytil. With the current prices for defensemen at an all time high, I'll take a potential top 4 D over a potential 2nd/3rd line forward any day of the week, as an established top 4 D has been shown to return a 1st line forward.

And as a budget team, we should follow the lead of Anaheim and Nashville and become top 4 D exporters. Try to draft a top 4 D every year and trade a D for a forward whenever we need one.

Harpur - Karlsson
Chabot - Ceci
Claesson - Brook
England, Jaros, Wideman, Lajoie, Wolanin, Gendron

That's the kind of D depth we should be trying to acquire.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Given that the possible available forwards you listed are looking like future 3rd liners with the potential to be 2nd liners (besides Robertson and Ratcliffe), I'd rather we go for a defenseman.

Give me Brook, Timmins, Vaakanainen, Jokiharju, Farrance, Joseph and Hague over Norris, Bowers, JAD, Boqvist, Comtois, Lind and Chytil. With the current prices for defensemen at an all time high, I'll take a potential top 4 D over a potential 2nd/3rd line forward any day of the week, as an established top 4 D has been shown to return a 1st line forward.

And as a budget team, we should follow the lead of Anaheim and Nashville and become top 4 D exporters. Try to draft a top 4 D every year and trade a D for a forward whenever we need one.

Harpur - Karlsson
Chabot - Ceci
Claesson - Brook
England, Jaros, Wideman, Lajoie, Wolanin, Gendron

That's the kind of D depth we should be trying to acquire.

I still find Comtois an intriguing option more because we ultimately need that type of power forward potential player and we don't currently really have one to compare.
Certainly not opposed to drafting a defenseman or two...
So in Timmins' case you forgive his late birthday (Sep-98) not far off from one full year ? (he did show considerable year over year improvement statistically)

I like Jokiharju, Timmins, Brook (all RHD) or PO Joseph (LD) at 28. Hague (Tall LD) seems to be dropping a bit but I think he'll be gone.

Its possible Brook/Farrance/Martin/Fleury could be there at 47.

 

[BondraTime]

I still find Comtois an intriguing option more because we ultimately need that type of power forward potential player and we don't currently really have one to compare.
Certainly not opposed to drafting a defenseman or two...
So in Timmins' case you forgive his late birthday (Sep-98) not far off from one full year ? (he did show considerable year over year improvement statistically)

I like Jokiharju, Timmins, Brook (all RHD) or PO Joseph (LD) at 28. Hague (Tall LD) seems to be dropping a bit but I think he'll be gone.

Its possible Brook/Farrance/Martin/Fleury could be there at 47.

Joseph will be going top 15, he's going to explode like his brother did. Whoever gets him will be very lucky.

I really, really like Comtois. I see him having a huge year next season.

I'm of the opinion we should go with a D this draft, though I'm not a fan of Timmins..

 

[Six Assets]

Joseph will be going top 15, he's going to explode like his brother did. Whoever gets him will be very lucky.

I really, really like Comtois. I see him having a huge year next season.

I'm of the opinion we should go with a D this draft, though I'm not a fan of Timmins..

are you an amateur scout? I seek out your posts around the draft.

 

[Oil For The Boys]

I would be surprised if the Senators take any players from the WHL this year. I'm assuming they have another amateur scout out West but having Bob Lowes leave mid-season to join the Golden Knights will likely impact their strategy heading into the draft. If the Senators and Las Vegas were to make a deal to protect a certain player, I could see Max Lajoie going the other way.

A name I would keep an eye on is Domenic Commisso, if I recall he was invited to the Senators development camp this past summer and could be available in the 4th round.

 

[edguy]

Joseph will be going top 15, he's going to explode like his brother did. Whoever gets him will be very lucky.

I dont think theres a bigger Joseph fan then me around here, but top 15 is a bit much.. top 25 is more like it.

But I agree he is going to absolute break out offensively next year, with no Brisebois/Meloche ahead of him.

 

[Liver King]

I think we will trade our 1st in a package for a forward honestly

 

[edguy]

I think we will trade our 1st in a package for a forward honestly

I think any team we get an impact forward from will want our 2018 1st not this one..