2017/2018 Management Discussion | NEW MOD WARNING IN OP AS OF 5/20/18

[Pavel96]

Don't know why we couldn't have beat the SJ offer for Hoffman. I'm sure Baertschi is worth more than Boedker considering that contract. Could have then flipped Hoffman to the Panthers afterwards and got those picks. But this is far beyond Benning's mental capacity and he likely sees Baertschi as foundational.

Sounds like you are talking about silly little trades etc for silly little draft picks. You don't win with young players - they need to be aged 26-32. Draft picks at this point in the rebuild are useless. Benning is an old school guy that makes hockey trades - the silly little trades you talk of aren;t even worth this draft guru's time. He's doing an amazing job as GM, just go somewhere else if you don't agree.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Depending on your view of Benning please share some reasonable things/outcomes that would soften your stance.
Eg I think Benning is incompetent and has no business being a GM of a NHL team. However i would rexamine and question my stance if some of the following happened.
1) Gudbranson is paired with edler or the top pairing for the seaso , and then traded at the TDL.(this would show good planning and execution, inflate Guddy with the intent to trade him).
2)Trade Baertchi before this season begins for picks. (Canucks have a glut of wingers, good opprtunity to sell high on Baertchi).
3) keep the seventh over all pick. (This would show good commitment, benning has incentive to pick a player who can step into the NHL right away or trade for an already established player. But if he puts the team ahead of his own incentive i would appreciate that).

Benning is way too far gone for anything to be re-examined.

It's been said before and still holds true today: the Canucks could lose every single one of his pro scouted acquisitions on waivers and I wouldn't even care. Losing Baertschi to waivers would be a bit annoying but it wouldn't be like we would be losing anyone irreplaceable. Pretty much everyone else and in most cases I would be thrilled to shed some of those salaries (Eriksson, Gudbranson, Sutter, Gagner, and Nilsson specifically). He's built such a bad hockey team, there is zero reason to think that anything will change.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Since 2014,..how many of Toronto's accumulated picks are on their current roster?

Did their farm team just win the Calder Cup? Yup. They're fine with their depth.

 

[sting101]

Did their farm team just win the Calder Cup? Yup. They're fine with their depth.

didn't we almost win in 2015?

What did that amount to?

 

[y2kcanucks]

didn't we almost win in 2015?

What did that amount to?

That was a very veteran team up front, with Jacob Markstrom (who's now the Canucks starting goalie) in net.

 

[FroshaugFan2]

Since 2014,..how many of Toronto's accumulated picks are on their current roster?

Here's a look at the picks and prospects the Canucks and Maple Leafs have acquired for veterans since Shanahan and Benning were hired.

The Leafs have Carrick, Kapanen, and Dermott on their roster. The Canucks have Motte, Goldobin, and Leipsic.

The Maple Leafs have gotten 275 games played out of picks and prospects. In the same time the Canucks have had 148 games from acquired picks and prospects. I didn't count veterans acquired for acquired picks (such as Andersen).

The Leafs have 6 acquired picks for upcoming drafts. The Canucks have 0.

For prospects acquired the Leafs have Vlad Kara, Carl Gundstrom, Eemeli Rasanen, JD Greenway, Martins Dzierkals, and Jeremy Bracco. The Canucks have Will Lockwood, Guillaume Brisebois, and Jonathan Dahlen.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Depending on your view of Benning please share some reasonable things/outcomes that would soften your stance.
Eg I think Benning is incompetent and has no business being a GM of a NHL team. However i would rexamine and question my stance if some of the following happened.
1) Gudbranson is paired with edler or the top pairing for the seaso , and then traded at the TDL.(this would show good planning and execution, inflate Guddy with the intent to trade him).
2)Trade Baertchi before this season begins for picks. (Canucks have a glut of wingers, good opprtunity to sell high on Baertchi).
3) keep the seventh over all pick. (This would show good commitment, benning has incentive to pick a player who can step into the NHL right away or trade for an already established player. But if he puts the team ahead of his own incentive i would appreciate that).

1) Improve in pro-scouting, asset management and contracts
2) No more trading picks for older, "nhl-ready" prospects that haven't made the nhl yet or "culture carriers"
3) actually rebuild instead of it just being a scapegoat when the plan of completing fails.

Benning has to show that he somewhat competent in all areas of being a GM for me to change my opinion of him again( I was a Benning Supporter).

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Here's a look at the picks and prospects the Canucks and Maple Leafs have acquired for veterans since Shanahan and Benning were hired.

The Leafs have Carrick, Kapanen, and Dermott on their roster. The Canucks have Motte, Goldobin, and Leipsic.

The Maple Leafs have gotten 275 games played out of picks and prospects. In the same time the Canucks have had 148 games from acquired picks and prospects. I didn't count veterans acquired for acquired picks (such as Andersen).

The Leafs have 6 acquired picks for upcoming drafts. The Canucks have 0.

For prospects acquired the Leafs have Vlad Kara, Carl Gundstrom, Eemeli Rasanen, JD Greenway, Martins Dzierkals, and Jeremy Bracco. The Canucks have Will Lockwood and Guillaume Brisebois.

Benning gave up a higher pick in the trade that got Lockwood so does that count as acquiring a prospect?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Here's a look at the picks and prospects the Canucks and Maple Leafs have acquired for veterans since Shanahan and Benning were hired.

The Leafs have Carrick, Kapanen, and Dermott on their roster. The Canucks have Motte, Goldobin, and Leipsic.

The Maple Leafs have gotten 275 games played out of picks and prospects. In the same time the Canucks have had 148 games from acquired picks and prospects. I didn't count veterans acquired for acquired picks (such as Andersen).

The Leafs have 6 acquired picks for upcoming drafts. The Canucks have 0.

For prospects acquired the Leafs have Vlad Kara, Carl Gundstrom, Eemeli Rasanen, JD Greenway, Martins Dzierkals, and Jeremy Bracco. The Canucks have Will Lockwood and Guillaume Brisebois.

My post was in response to post #9271...talking about 'acquired picks'..Carrick was drafted in 2010,and Kapanen and Dermott were not drafted using 'acquired ' picks..they were regular picks.

 

[FroshaugFan2]

Benning gave up a higher pick in the trade that got Lockwood so does that count as acquiring a prospect?

I counted it since the higher pick they traded away they acquired by trading Bieksa. I might have been a little generous there since the trade was a lot more than the picks involved.

 

[FroshaugFan2]

My post was in response to post #9271...talking about 'acquired picks'..Carrick was drafted in 2010,and Kapanen and Dermott were not drafted using 'acquired ' picks..they were regular picks.

They had the Dermott pick from selling Franson + Santorelli for 1st and then trading down. That's how they also got Bracco and Dzierkals.

Carrick and Kapanen were acquired by selling veterans for prospects. I counted these as intelligent trades for a rebuilding team. If you want to remove them, then it's Dermott acquired for Toronto and no one for the Canucks.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

They had the Dermott pick from selling Franson + Santorelli for 1st and then trading down. That's how they also got Bracco and Dzierkals.

Carrick and Kapanen were acquired by selling veterans for prospects. I counted these as intelligent trades for a rebuilding team. If you want to remove them, then it's Dermott acquired for Toronto and no one for the Canucks.

Dermott was picked #34 in 2015 (Marner picked 4th)...To me,that does not look like an acquired pick..the other two are not NHL players

 

[FroshaugFan2]

Dermott was picked #34 in 2015 (Marner picked 4th)...To me,that does not look like an acquired pick..the other two are not NHL players

Toronto traded that pick away in 2013 for Bernier and then acquired it in 2015 for the pick they got from the Franson/ Santorelli deal.

 

[racerjoe]

You didn't think Crawford was bad either? On what grounds?

Well their drafting improved in 2012, 2013 was a solid draft even if just Bo comes out if it, most picks seemed to be well thought out and solid at the time. then his last draft was 2014 the one everyone here likes to rave about... seems pretty decent from the outside.

 

[MarkMM]

Depending on your view of Benning please share some reasonable things/outcomes that would soften your stance.
Eg I think Benning is incompetent and has no business being a GM of a NHL team. However i would rexamine and question my stance if some of the following happened.
1) Gudbranson is paired with edler or the top pairing for the seaso , and then traded at the TDL.(this would show good planning and execution, inflate Guddy with the intent to trade him).
2)Trade Baertchi before this season begins for picks. (Canucks have a glut of wingers, good opprtunity to sell high on Baertchi).
3) keep the seventh over all pick. (This would show good commitment, benning has incentive to pick a player who can step into the NHL right away or trade for an already established player. But if he puts the team ahead of his own incentive i would appreciate that).

1.) Use the cap space to sign one-year/short-term rentals, allowing some of our prospects to start in the minors/be sheltered, but then as the prospects mature, he sells the rentals at the deadline effectively buying draft picks.

2.) At the deadline, buy further draft picks by accepting cap dumps attached with picks/prospects.

3.) Auction off players whose time is coming to an end at the deadline, Gagner, del Zotto, Nilsson, etc.

4.) Convince Tryamkin to come back, hopefully replacing Gudbranson's spot, who is then traded.

5.) Make up for his sin by finding someone to take Eriksson off our hands.

6.) Properly handle the development of key prospects, e.g., Petersson, Dahlen, Juolevi, whomever we pick up at the draft this year (as in that fine balance of don't rush them but don't bury them)

7.) Speaking of which, have a good draft this year, regardless of my personal preferences, any one of Dobson, Bouchard, Boqvist, Hughes, Tkachuk, Wahlstrom, Kotkaniemi would be acceptable at that spot.

8.) Lock up Boesser with a decent hometown discount and don't commit to any unnecessary long-term deals, and no NTC/NMC's without discounts (wtf overpaying Sutter AND giving him term AND giving him a NTC).

9.) Further fill out our prospect cupboard/farm depth with signing late-bloomers out of European leagues/colleges.

Long but in many cases common sense things that a good GM would do. If Benning did that, I'd happily admit he's doing a good job, even if he made atrocious errors to get here.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Benning defenders on Vanek putting up 55 points: "His value has been diminishing over recent years, no one wanted to offer picks. Benning got the best return he could."

Wilson goes on to acquire the most hated asset in the league and flip them for a 2nd, 4th, and 5th while shedding salary at the same time.

Dhaliwal was trying to explain this on the morning show and dumb ass Cybulski couldn't comprehend the concept at all. Just kept saying vanek is old! Teams know he's available every year!

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Not only that....since 2013 Toronto post first round picks have played a combined total of about 60 games (for any team). If you take out Dermott's 37 GP that leaves you with about 20 games combined. But how can you rebuild without accumulating a mass of post first round pikzzzzz? And these are the mighty leafs we are talking about.

So just let me make sure Im getting this right.

Because a team didn't nail their 2nd round picks (& beyond), you feel 2nd round picks (& beyond) are not needed for rebuilding?

 

[geebaan]

At least Benning being useless at trading comes in handy in cases like this.

I mean, he can’t be that stupid right...? Right?!

 

[Jimbo57]

So just let me make sure Im getting this right.

Because a team didn't nail their 2nd round picks (& beyond), you feel 2nd round picks (& beyond) are not needed for rebuilding?

Where did I say that post first round picks are not needed? All I was implying was that post first round picks are not the holy grail of rebuilding that some in here think they are.

 

[CanaFan]

Where did I say that post first round picks are not needed? All I was implying was that post first round picks are not the holy grail of rebuilding that some in here think they are.

Well in lieu of winning the 1st overall pick in a year when there is an elite talent available it probably IS the holy grail.

But yes, if you can win a Matthews then it’s probably not as urgent to do your diligence on the other rebuilding moves.

 

[Verviticus]

Where did I say that post first round picks are not needed? All I was implying was that post first round picks are not the holy grail of rebuilding that some in here think they are.

didnt you throw a fit and say you were leaving the thread because of benning criticism

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

didnt you throw a fit and say you were leaving the thread because of benning criticism

A lot of peeps here threw a fit on Feb 14th and said they weren’t coming back...and they are still here...who cares?

 

[I in the Eye]

Where did I say that post first round picks are not needed? All I was implying was that post first round picks are not the holy grail of rebuilding that some in here think they are.

Of course first round picks are the holy grail of rebuilding. Every one you get, is similar to two end of June years of drafting... It can shed years off of a rebuild. But, yes, years are like months to Believers. One 1st rounder doesn't pan out a given year? No problem, there's always next year to try again. 4 years has passed, and the Believers act like Benning has been on the job for months, not years. Benning is screwing up the Believers concept of time... At first, won't take long at all, turn it around in a hurry... Then, never said it would be quick... and now, he's talking about it taking years longer... even the word 5 years, 7 years, 10 years came out of his mouth as long as some rebuilds take... way down the horizon. Holy shit... he's tugging at the Believers concept of time like a choke chain.

1st round picks are incredibly important to a rebuilding team. The stupid thing is, it's actually what would save his job... the more quality picks he has, and more quality picks in the prospect pool. He can't be putting his eggs all in one basket, and wait year, after year, after year... to see how they do. With more quality picks, he affords himself the luxury of his scouting staff to be wrong from time-to-time... while justifying years needed while prospects grow and make there way on the team.

To me, enough time has passed to say Benning has done a terrible job. You want to give him more time, that's up to you... but that's a choice. The fact is, there's no obvious point at which anyone can say with a degree of certainty, "this is the reasonable amount of time to judge Benning by". Everyone has their own biased point in time at which they stop believing, at least enough to stop supporting. Four years, IMO, is enough time to judge Benning by... to say, cut the loses and believe that the Canucks will be better off in the hands of someone more skilled. I'm willing to take that chance and see very little downside to canning Benning ASAP. Benning, himself, has said so, four years ago that this was the time he could reasonably be judged by. Now it's not enough... because Benning controls time for his Believers. If he says there is not enough time, then his Believers say it's not enough time... success will come later.

Obviously, situations change... and one of the situations that changed is that Benning built multiple yearly versions of shitty teams between 2014 and 2018 - with bare minimum quantity of prospects in the pool. He, nor Weisbrod and Linden, want to be fired... so they need to justify more time. Here we are now... Benning is still going, and there's still plenty of effort in the support by yourself and the others who still belittle those who said enough time has passed... and you want another year, or two, or three, or four, or ten, or twenty before judging (depending on who you talk to)...

But many have also moved on to new beliefs. For four years, many have cut their teeth on figuring out ways to reason how Benning has done a good or great job. The one bit of evidence (the prospect pool) is underwhelming in quality and quantity given the picks to work with... given the opportunity for more picks to be acquired. You fail to see this, because you don't see nor consider the importance of 1st rounders and quality picks for a rebuilding team. This regime doesn't know what it is doing, and their plan is not going to work. They don't have a plan. They have sermons, and as much time as they can twist and maneuver around shitty results before the right people say, ok this isn't working. Maybe you'll give Benning 5 or 10 more years? Whatever it is, there is a year when you will even give up on him.

All Benning has to do, though, to prove himself as the right person for the job here, is to do a good job, on the important things, and get good results under his watch. This could start as soon as next season. Four years of being an idiot doesn't mean that being an idiot next year and beyond is set in stone. It just means that it is not likely. As much as he'd like to reset the last 4 years, and start again, time moves on...

 

[Verviticus]

A lot of peeps here threw a fit on Feb 14th and said they weren’t coming back...and they are still here...who cares?

i dont know. is this question rhetorical

 

[Jimbo57]

Of course first round picks are the holy grail of rebuilding. Every one you get, is similar to two end of June years of drafting... It can shed years off of a rebuild. But, yes, years are like months to Believers. One 1st rounder doesn't pan out a given year? No problem, there's always next year to try again. 4 years has passed, and the Believers act like Benning has been on the job for months, not years. Benning is screwing up the Believers concept of time... At first, won't take long at all, turn it around in a hurry... Then, never said it would be quick... and now, he's talking about it taking years longer... even the word 5 years, 7 years, 10 years came out of his mouth as long as some rebuilds take... way down the horizon. Holy ****... he's tugging at the Believers concept of time like a choke chain.

1st round picks are incredibly important to a rebuilding team. The stupid thing is, it's actually what would save his job... the more quality picks he has, and more quality picks in the prospect pool. He can't be putting his eggs all in one basket, and wait year, after year, after year... to see how they do. With more quality picks, he affords himself the luxury of his scouting staff to be wrong from time-to-time... while justifying years needed while prospects grow and make there way on the team.

To me, enough time has passed to say Benning has done a terrible job. You want to give him more time, that's up to you... but that's a choice. The fact is, there's no obvious point at which anyone can say with a degree of certainty, "this is the reasonable amount of time to judge Benning by". Everyone has their own biased point in time at which they stop believing, at least enough to stop supporting. Four years, IMO, is enough time to judge Benning by... to say, cut the loses and believe that the Canucks will be better off in the hands of someone more skilled. I'm willing to take that chance and see very little downside to canning Benning ASAP. Benning, himself, has said so, four years ago that this was the time he could reasonably be judged by. Now it's not enough... because Benning controls time for his Believers. If he says there is not enough time, then his Believers say it's not enough time... success will come later.

Obviously, situations change... and one of the situations that changed is that Benning built multiple yearly versions of ****ty teams between 2014 and 2018 - with bare minimum quantity of prospects in the pool. He, nor Weisbrod and Linden, want to be fired... so they need to justify more time. Here we are now... Benning is still going, and there's still plenty of effort in the support by yourself and the others who still belittle those who said enough time has passed... and you want another year, or two, or three, or four, or ten, or twenty before judging (depending on who you talk to)...

But many have also moved on to new beliefs. For four years, many have cut their teeth on figuring out ways to reason how Benning has done a good or great job. The one bit of evidence (the prospect pool) is underwhelming in quality and quantity given the picks to work with... given the opportunity for more picks to be acquired. You fail to see this, because you don't see nor consider the importance of 1st rounders and quality picks for a rebuilding team. This regime doesn't know what it is doing, and their plan is not going to work. They don't have a plan. They have sermons, and as much time as they can twist and maneuver around ****ty results before the right people say, ok this isn't working. Maybe you'll give Benning 5 or 10 more years? Whatever it is, there is a year when you will even give up on him.

All Benning has to do, though, to prove himself as the right person for the job here, is to do a good job, on the important things, and get good results under his watch. This could start as soon as next season. Four years of being an idiot doesn't mean that being an idiot next year and beyond is set in stone. It just means that it is not likely. As much as he'd like to reset the last 4 years, and start again, time moves on...

Wow wall of text. Maybe this whole diatribe could have been avoided if you realized that I wrote "post first round picks" and not first round picks...but thanks for the book report...it was a good effort ...the part about sermons ...good stuff...