Captain Dave Poulin
Imaginary Cat
It's absolutely horrible, bud. If you spend enough time in there, you start thinking "I'd rather identify as a gorilla than claim that lot as the same species." Truly terrible and truly stupid.
Prospect Info: 2017-18 Flyers Prospects - Top 30 SKATERS, #8
- Thread starter Curufinwe
- Start date
It's absolutely horrible, bud. If you spend enough time in there, you start thinking "I'd rather identify as a gorilla than claim that lot as the same species." Truly terrible and truly stupid.
- Sep 28, 2014
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Captain Dave Poulin
Imaginary Cat
As long as they bathe, Reb, but as you know they generally don't - they just stomp around with their awful jungle body odor swatting planes out of the air. I'll tell you what that reminds me of - God bless Peter Jackson forever for his brilliant handling of "The Lord of the Rings," but if you ever want to wind me up and watch me spin right out of control, start defending the way Naomi Watts literally (not allegorically) fell in love with that ****ing monkey in the remake of "King Kong," or the almost exactly similar thing when the masked **** in that ****ing **** heap "V for Vendetta" passionately kissed Natalie Portman ... while he still had his ****ing mask on!!!
I need a lie-down, brb.
- Sep 28, 2014
- 76,681
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As long as they bathe, Reb, but as you know they generally don't - they just stomp around with their awful jungle body odor swatting planes out of the air. I'll tell you what that reminds me of - God bless Peter Jackson forever for his brilliant handling of "The Lord of the Rings," but if you ever want to wind me up and watch me spin right out of control, start defending the way Naomi Watts literally (not allegorically) fell in love with that ****ing monkey in the remake of "King Kong," or the almost exactly similar thing when the masked **** in that ****ing **** heap "V for Vendetta" passionately kissed Natalie Portman ... while he still had his ****ing mask on!!!
Never change Cap
deadhead
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2014
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The problem with differentiating players at this point is no one is elite, and other than Hagg, no one is playing at a high level, NCHC may be the best conference in college hockey, but it's not much above junior hockey.
Hagg is tough b/c we watched his growing pains, had he played junior hockey, then come to the AHL, followed by this solid season, he'd be ranked higher, his so-so second AHL season has framed him as a disappointment, but gee, he's going to turn 23 in his debut NHL season. Not exactly an AHL scrub like we've seen in the past.
The difference between Allison, Ratcliffe and Laczynski is where they were drafted, i.e., scouts' perception of their skill level. Right now there isn't enough evidence to overturn that inintial judgement, Ratcliffe is in juniors, and Allison and Laczynski had similar freshman seasons, both were solid, neither was elite (which was my point comparing Laczynski to top freshman scorers). In a year or two, they'll sort themselves out.
Vorobyov is tough, while he had a great WJC campaign, let's face it 11 points in 44 KHL games isn't exactly the mark of a future top 6 player. But he's only 20, a good AHL season could improve his stock.
Vecchione actually has the best on ice credentials, a great college career, while he's undersized, he's more like AK, short but stout. This year in the AHL will tell us if his skill package translates to the pro game. As an older player, he can't spend a couple years marinating like the 20 year olds out of junior, he has to make a Read like transition to have a chance.
Bunnyman is the poor man's Allison, a little smaller. Great post draft goal scoring campaign, but only 52 points in 64 games with 16 PP goals - will he be good enough to do more than tip in goals in front of the net?
I don't see a star in this group, but a lot of guys who could flame out and be marginal, or step up into 2 pairing D/middle 6 roles. That's why it's so hard to separate them.
Hagg is tough b/c we watched his growing pains, had he played junior hockey, then come to the AHL, followed by this solid season, he'd be ranked higher, his so-so second AHL season has framed him as a disappointment, but gee, he's going to turn 23 in his debut NHL season. Not exactly an AHL scrub like we've seen in the past.
The difference between Allison, Ratcliffe and Laczynski is where they were drafted, i.e., scouts' perception of their skill level. Right now there isn't enough evidence to overturn that inintial judgement, Ratcliffe is in juniors, and Allison and Laczynski had similar freshman seasons, both were solid, neither was elite (which was my point comparing Laczynski to top freshman scorers). In a year or two, they'll sort themselves out.
Vorobyov is tough, while he had a great WJC campaign, let's face it 11 points in 44 KHL games isn't exactly the mark of a future top 6 player. But he's only 20, a good AHL season could improve his stock.
Vecchione actually has the best on ice credentials, a great college career, while he's undersized, he's more like AK, short but stout. This year in the AHL will tell us if his skill package translates to the pro game. As an older player, he can't spend a couple years marinating like the 20 year olds out of junior, he has to make a Read like transition to have a chance.
Bunnyman is the poor man's Allison, a little smaller. Great post draft goal scoring campaign, but only 52 points in 64 games with 16 PP goals - will he be good enough to do more than tip in goals in front of the net?
I don't see a star in this group, but a lot of guys who could flame out and be marginal, or step up into 2 pairing D/middle 6 roles. That's why it's so hard to separate them.
Patrick Division
Registered User
1. Patrick, Nolan ~ C
2. Sanheim, Travis ~ LHD
3. Lindblom, Oskar ~ LW/RW
4. Myers, Phil ~ RHD
5. Rubtsov, German ~ C/W
6. Morin, Sam ~ LHD
7. Frost, Morgan ~ C/LW
8. Allison, Wade ~ RW
Add in Hart and Sandstrom and that's a hell of a top ten!! Wow!! The future of this team is ridiculous!!!
2. Sanheim, Travis ~ LHD
3. Lindblom, Oskar ~ LW/RW
4. Myers, Phil ~ RHD
5. Rubtsov, German ~ C/W
6. Morin, Sam ~ LHD
7. Frost, Morgan ~ C/LW
8. Allison, Wade ~ RW
Add in Hart and Sandstrom and that's a hell of a top ten!! Wow!! The future of this team is ridiculous!!!
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
- Oct 19, 2006
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Vorobyov had all of 5 games in the KHL before his 19th birthday so stretching the truth a bit there saying he was playing as a 17 year old. He went 4 months without recording a point in the KHL. Is that an accomplishment?
What you don't seem to grasp is those kids are groomed to play in their domestic leagues from a very young age. They don't have a minor league system like the NHL has. They have to promote from within their club pipeline. So if you're one of the best junior players for that club's affiliate, you are going to be next in line to be on the Senior team. If Wade Allison is the best player on his Junior team he gets a college scholarship, not a promotion to a men's team. Rubtsov "played" 15 games in the KHL as an 18 year old. Was that an accomplishment for him? Organizing the water bottles on the bench? Don't even compare it to Konecny and Provorov did to get to the NHL.
How many posts has it been now and I'm still waiting to hear about all these Robert Hagg ON ICE accomplishments? Care to list them? Or are you just going off him being a "phenomenal" skater at development camp?
Taylor Cammarata outscored Nathan MacKinnon by a bunch playing Midget hockey. He was also one of the best Junior scorers in the history of the USHL. How's that working out? Undersized wingers with skating concerns are not good bets to be good NHL players.
Making incorrect assumptions again. Scoring in that league translates on par with scoring in Liiga and NLA.
deadhead
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2014
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Really, isn't that an heroic assumption?
College hockey is not equal to Finnish pro hockey or even Swiss hockey
maybe Austrian, possibly Germany or Norway or Czech
While there's a smattering of future NHL players on top college teams, most will be lucky to land an AHL contract after college. Whereas Swedish and Swiss teams pay enough to land top Europeans and 2nd tier American talent.
The top scorers in college are in the 85-100 point range (per 60 games), not far below the top junior scorers. The three top scorers were seniors, 4 of the top 10 were juniors, Sikura was drafted, in the 6th rd, Bjork in the 5th rd, 3 were sophomores, only Gaudette was drafted, in the 5th rd. Smirnov, the top scoring freshman was a 6th rd pick. Clayton Keller (6th in ppg) was drafted #7, the first high pick on the scoring list. Borgstrom, the 22nd highest scorer, was #23.
Point is college hockey is dominated by players who for the most part have AHL ceilings, but they're 3-5 years younger than their European counterparts. There's a few top NHL prospects, but they rarely stay more than two years - when they reach the point where they'd dominate college, they turn pro. There's actually more raw talent in junior hockey, but the bulk of junior players are 17-19 years old whereas college players tend to be 20-22 years old.
https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/...sweden-shl-finland-liiga-czech-germany-norway
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JojoTheWhale
CORN BOY
- May 22, 2008
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Unless I'm wrong (and I'm pretty damn sure I'm not), FlyGuy is using NHLe, which is a thing. Specifically, he's using Rob Vollman's updated version of Gabriel Desjardins' adaptation to hockey from Bill James' original work.
I would strongly be against any version of scoring equivalency that lumps all of NCAA hockey together give that we have enough information to be more precise than that.
I would strongly be against any version of scoring equivalency that lumps all of NCAA hockey together give that we have enough information to be more precise than that.
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FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
- Oct 19, 2006
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Yup. College Hockey, like any collegiate sport, is not created equal. Different leagues have different scoring environments and some leagues are better predictors of future NHL success than others. The conference Western Michigan plays in has proven to produce quality NHL players more frequently than the other leagues over the years.
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
The Big Ten will be getting stronger. Notre Dame is joining next year which will bring it to 7 teams. Small number but a lot of quality programs there. I don't know if they'll get the funds like Penn State but it sounds like there's interest in Illinois making the jump if they can get the money together. The Chicago & St. Louis areas are just pumping a lot of talent for the US right now so it's a fertile area in terms of recruiting potential players.
Ghosts Beer
I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
- Feb 10, 2014
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"17 and 18" for Vorobyov was a typo based on what I wrote for Hagg; as I said in a prior post re: Vorobyov I was referring to his 18 and 19 year old seasons, which I'm guessing you realized.
And my argument isn't that everything Vorobyov did in his KHL career has been an accomplishment; it's that unlike your adamant stance that playing in a high-level pro men's league is not even the slightest accomplishment for a teenager, I think it is. Now, I'm not saying it means everything, which it seems you are trying to exaggerate my argument into (just like you acted like I was "only" using stats to rate Allison and Vorobyov despite talking about skill levels and hockey sense as other reasons). To me, playing that many games over two teenage seasons in the KHL (or SHL for Hagg), and having WJC success, means you've accomplished more at the same stages in your careers as a guy who had one good USHL season at 18 and a pretty good, but not great rookie season at the NCAA level at 19. And I think if you want to rank Allison ahead of those guys it makes more sense to the "future projection" argument than trying to act like Vorobyov and Hagg haven't accomplished any more than Allison.
If Rubtsov followed up by playing a full season in the KHL in his 19 year old season and had a major role in a medal-winning WJC team, finishing in the top 3 in tournament scoring, as Vorobyov did then, yes, I would say he accomplished more than Allison at the same age. And I'm assuming that you do admit, then, that it was an accomplishment for Konecny and Provorov to reach the NHL as regulars at age 19. Nowhere did I imply that making the KHL at 18 is of the exact same level of accomplishment as making the NHL at 19, so that's more disingenuous misrepresentation of my points; I'm simply saying that it *is* an accomplishment to reach certain levels of play at a young age, not that they are all equal degrees of accomplishment.
Where did I ever allege that Hagg had a ton of on-ice accomplishments other than being the youngest or one of the youngest regular defensemen in the SHL and AHL, and playing in 3 WJCs and earning two silver medals? (Though if you want to go back to when he played closer to his age at 16 and under, he had many awards for "on-ice" play.) All I've contended is that at the same ages he had a more accomplished overall history than Allison. Not sure why you mock my saying that Hagg, like Allison, also has excellent raw physical attributes (did I really use the exact term "phenomenal" skating after a development camp and do you keep notes on this stuff?) considering it seems your own love of Allison is based largely on raw physical attributes.
I agree. Smirnov is not a good bet to be a good NHL player (though I think he was a fine 6th round pick). That was never my point. My point was that at every comparable USHL season (he also graduated to the USHL a year ahead of Allison) plus their freshman NCAA seasons, that below-average NHL prospect outproduced Allison, which again illustrates that *up to this point* Allison has not accomplished a whole lot to be indicative of a future scoring line NHL winger.
Again, I don't want to come across as an ass here just because I disagree with the board consensus on where Allison is as a prospect, and the message board medium has a tendency to make differences of opinion sound smug, which is probably what leads everyone to react so strongly to each other. Don't get me wrong -- I hope Allison is the next Simmonds. I like his style of play, even if I think he's being overrated. I'll be very happy if we get Josh Anderson out of him, which is a more realistic hope in my view.
FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
- Oct 19, 2006
- 53,120
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Nothing else you wrote really required another response, so I'll just cut this out.
My love of Allison. I didn't even comment in this thread until you starting whining that Allison was running away with an 8th place vote that he really wasn't. And if I loved him enough I would have voted him way before 8th right?
"Hagg also has a much more accomplished background than Allison and seems pretty much a lock to be an NHL regular."
I figured with a comment like that there must have been at least a couple on-ice accomplishments you could point to, but here we are 4 pages later and I'm still waiting. I guess I'll take the hint. With all these professional games this guy should be a AHL superstar, but he's not. He's merely just a solid player at that level. Danick Martel has 140 professional games now, so I'll keep that in mind as we move along with this thing. It's a heck of an accomplishment.
Hagg's 3 WJCs mean nothing to me. His best performance was his 1st one and then consider what had to happen for him to get on that roster. If you forget I'll give you a clue. Jesper Pettersson (that one) was one of the guys that had to get hurt for it to happen. Hagg's 22 going on 23. What he did as a 16 and 17 year old holds zero weight with me. I just think you get caught up way too much in what a guy did and not enough on what a guy projects to do.
And yes I do keep notes.
My love of Allison.
I didn't even comment in this thread until you starting whining that Allison was running away with an 8th place vote that he really wasn't. And if I loved him enough I would have voted him way before 8th right?"Hagg also has a much more accomplished background than Allison and seems pretty much a lock to be an NHL regular."
I figured with a comment like that there must have been at least a couple on-ice accomplishments you could point to, but here we are 4 pages later and I'm still waiting. I guess I'll take the hint. With all these professional games this guy should be a AHL superstar, but he's not. He's merely just a solid player at that level. Danick Martel has 140 professional games now, so I'll keep that in mind as we move along with this thing. It's a heck of an accomplishment.
Hagg's 3 WJCs mean nothing to me. His best performance was his 1st one and then consider what had to happen for him to get on that roster. If you forget I'll give you a clue. Jesper Pettersson (that one) was one of the guys that had to get hurt for it to happen. Hagg's 22 going on 23. What he did as a 16 and 17 year old holds zero weight with me. I just think you get caught up way too much in what a guy did and not enough on what a guy projects to do.
And yes I do keep notes.
Larry44
#FireTortsNOW
- Mar 1, 2002
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Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
Wouldn't be so many arguments if the homers stopped voting for only Flyers prospects.
Ghosts Beer
I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
- Feb 10, 2014
- 22,619
- 16,426
Eh, what else is there to do at this point in the summer? We needed new material; Hakstol's failure to use Lyubimov properly is played out.
Kind of creepy. I feel like I'm in Sliver.
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Ilkka Sinisalo
Amazing American
This is a terrible argument. Nobody thinks that Hagg has superstar talent or potential, even at the AHL player. The argument is that he is likely to be a solid bottom-pairing defenseman at the NHL level, and people who watched him play this year believe the he progressed as a player and is likely to be a capable NHL defender in the very near future. Furthermore, Sam Morin is only 50 games behind Hagg at the AHL level; are you ready to crap all over Morin if he were to play another half season for LV and not appear to be an an "AHL superstar"?
There are any number of players who put in 3 years at the AHL level and turned into, at the very least, solid contributors in the NHL.
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
Morin has improved every year... very different situation.
Haggs 2016-2017 season is getting more hype than it deserves because his previous year was so bad. So by comparison it looks impressive, but in the big picture it isn't a crazy year where he's had some kind of metamorphosis. Still has the same issues as before and is by no means a lock to be a consistent NHL player.
Haggs 2016-2017 season is getting more hype than it deserves because his previous year was so bad. So by comparison it looks impressive, but in the big picture it isn't a crazy year where he's had some kind of metamorphosis. Still has the same issues as before and is by no means a lock to be a consistent NHL player.
