2017-18 EFL Carabao Cup

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Do I care about blowing a 2-0 lead against West Ham at Wembley? Yes. They were too overconfident after the trip to Madrid, the win against Liverpool and the first half yesterday. It was embarassing.

Do I care about being eliminated from the Thai Energy Drink Cup? Not really, no. So I see yesterday as the perfect game to bring the players back down to earth.

 

[Baxterman]

BTW, City started Gundogan, Toure, Sterling, Bernardo Silva, Jesus, Aguero and subbed in KDB, Sane, Stones and Walker.
Clearly the academy players

And Spurs started Alderweireld, Rose, Davies, Alli, Sissoko, Dier, Trippier, Son and subbed on Eriksen and Dembele.

Clearly the academy players.

 

[Evilo]

I think he wanted to as badly as Poch did.

If he wanted to win that game badly then he would have put in his best line-up like he does in EPL/Champions League.

Ok so your argument is that Spurs have done worse than bigger clubs in Europe and in one CL than Leicester who had an easier draw. Sure I agree with that big deal.

Of course not because he needs to start players that don't start often to keep his group happy.
Spurs with a EL trophy + CL qualification is more attractive than Spurs with a 2nd place. No question.

You're actually telling me Spurs had a tough draw in the CL? Really? Bayer Leverkusen?
And not only that but how about that EL draw? Too hard as well?

 

[Evilo]

And Spurs started Alderweireld, Rose, Davies, Alli, Sissoko, Dier, Trippier, Son and subbed on Eriksen and Dembele.
Clearly the academy players.

Contrary to you, I never said Spurs didn't start a good team.
Moving the goalposts again.
Heck, you even said Aguero was on the bench even though he played the whole game. That's more than moving the goalposts really.

 

[Baxterman]

Contrary to you, I never said Spurs didn't start a good team.
Moving the goalposts again.
Heck, you even said Aguero was on the bench even though he played the whole game. That's more than moving the goalposts really.

Is it moving the goalposts or making a mistake? Sorry i didn't have have a laser like focus on the City game and missed that Aguero was a starter instead of a sub.

You claimed that pep took the game more seriously than Poch and then posted the line-up as proof of that I was just pointing out that the line-ups were fairly similar.

 

[Evilo]

Do I care about blowing a 2-0 lead against West Ham at Wembley? Yes. They were too overconfident after the trip to Madrid, the win against Liverpool and the first half yesterday. It was embarassing.

Do I care about being eliminated from the Thai Energy Drink Cup? Not really, no. So I see yesterday as the perfect game to bring the players back down to earth.

While I understand your point about bringing the players down to Earth (and I agree with it), you should care about being eliminated by an inferior team in a Cup you could win.
Losing to a top team? No big deal. Losing to WH at home? That's losing a decent chance at a trophy.

 

[Baxterman]

Of course not because he needs to start players that don't start often to keep his group happy.
Spurs with a EL trophy + CL qualification is more attractive than Spurs with a 2nd place. No question.

You're actually telling me Spurs had a tough draw in the CL? Really? Bayer Leverkusen?
And not only that but how about that EL draw? Too hard as well?

I didn't say tough draw I said tougher than Leicester. Monaco (last year), Leverkusen and CSKA Moscow are better teams than Porto, Copenhagen and Brugge.

And yes they shit the bed in EL, who is denying that?

What is the argument here? You seem to be making up this argument in which nobody is arguing you.

 

[Evilo]

Is it moving the goalposts or making a mistake? Sorry i didn't have have a laser like focus on the City game and missed that Aguero was a starter instead of a sub.

You claimed that pep took the game more seriously than Poch and then posted the line-up as proof of that I was just pointing out that the line-ups were fairly similar.

Yeah I said Pep took it more seriously, as can be seen from his quotes.
I didn't post the lineups, YOU said he didn't start X or Y. Which made me look at them. Which revealed an A quality team, just as I remembered.

 

[Baxterman]

While I understand your point about bringing the players down to Earth (and I agree with it), you should care about being eliminated by an inferior team in a Cup you could win.
Losing to a top team? No big deal. Losing to WH at home? That's losing a decent chance at a trophy.

Except it is a meaningless trophy that likely costs them a shot at bigger and better things. Qualifying out of the group stage in CL is a bigger deal than the Carabao Cup, finishing top 4 is a bigger deal than Carabao Cup.

And they put a more than good enough team out there to win. They got caught by a team playing a really good team and as much as I like to rag on West Ham lets not act like they lost to a League 2 level team here. West Ham is still a respectable team and probably every team in the "big 6" have a loss that is as bad as that on their record this year.

 

[Evilo]

I didn't say tough draw I said tougher than Leicester. Monaco (last year), Leverkusen and CSKA Moscow are better teams than Porto, Copenhagen and Brugge.

And yes they **** the bed in EL, who is denying that?

What is the argument here? You seem to be making up this argument in which nobody is arguing you.

The argument has been that given their awful european record, 1/ trying to win there is extremely important and 2/ being happy with a qualification and then doing nothing with it is awful.

 

[Baxterman]

Yeah I said Pep took it more seriously, as can be seen from his quotes.
I didn't post the lineups, YOU said he didn't start X or Y. Which made me look at them. Which revealed an A quality team, just as I remembered.

3 guys that haven't played in EPL or Champions League is an A level team?

BS

 

[Evilo]

Except it is a meaningless trophy that likely costs them a shot at bigger and better things. Qualifying out of the group stage in CL is a bigger deal than the Carabao Cup, finishing top 4 is a bigger deal than Carabao Cup.

And they put a more than good enough team out there to win. They got caught by a team playing a really good team and as much as I like to rag on West Ham lets not act like they lost to a League 2 level team here. West Ham is still a respectable team and probably every team in the "big 6" have a loss that is as bad as that on their record this year.

I'd like you to use at least an argument that holds some truth.
Saying winning a Cup costs them is purely speculation.
IIRC, teams winning Cups lately haven't been exactly awful and managed to go further than Spurs in european competitions in fact.

 

[Baxterman]

The argument has been that given their awful european record, 1/ trying to win there is extremely important and 2/ being happy with a qualification and then doing nothing with it is awful.

Except the sample size is pretty small.

We haven't really seen a Tottenham team at this level ever (or at least in any of our memories) so to compare the Tottenham record in one season is pretty pointless.

This year Tottenham has shown that it can do something with Champions League. They were drawn into the group of death and early on have been competitive in it.

Also if Champions League qualification gets them a big payout and attracts quality players versus Carabao Cup which does neither why shouldn't they be happy with the one that improves the club?

 

[Evilo]

3 guys that haven't played in EPL or Champions League is an A level team?

BS

That's hardly BS. They had two youngsters and 9 experienced vets/starters.
When you start Aguero, Gundogan, Toure, Silva, Jesus, Sterling you want to win.
When you fail to score and bring on 3 usual starters, you are even more serious about winning.

Yes, that team likely kicks Spurs ass every day.

 

[Evilo]

Except the sample size is pretty small.

We haven't really seen a Tottenham team at this level ever (or at least in any of our memories) so to compare the Tottenham record in one season is pretty pointless.

This year Tottenham has shown that it can do something with Champions League. They were drawn into the group of death and early on have been competitive in it.

Also if Champions League qualification gets them a big payout and attracts quality players versus Carabao Cup which does neither why shouldn't they be happy with the one that improves the club?

What can I say, you're moving the goalposts again.
Now you're saying it's either CL or Cup win.

There's really nothing else to say. Keep your losers mentality, every winning team in the world shows you that's the wrong example to follow. But it's quite obvious you know better.

 

[Baxterman]

I'd like you to use at least an argument that holds some truth.
Saying winning a Cup costs them is purely speculation.
IIRC, teams winning Cups lately haven't been exactly awful and managed to go further than Spurs in european competitions in fact.

If playing full rosters in low level Cups doesn't hurt teams why do every big club do it?

Why was there so much talk last year about Chelsea and Liverpool having an advantage last season with no European matches?

And for about the billionth time teams winning Cups are vastly different than teams winning the Carabao Cup.

 

[Baxterman]

That's hardly BS. They had two youngsters and 9 experienced vets/starters.
When you start Aguero, Gundogan, Toure, Silva, Jesus, Sterling you want to win.
When you fail to score and bring on 3 usual starters, you are even more serious about winning.

Yes, that team likely kicks Spurs ass every day.

And when you start Alderweireld, Rose, Dier, Alli, Son, Sissoko you want to win as well.

Kicks Spurs ass? Ok well i can see you have given up on objectivity as this point.

 

[Baxterman]

What can I say, you're moving the goalposts again.
Now you're saying it's either CL or Cup win.

There's really nothing else to say. Keep your losers mentality, every winning team in the world shows you that's the wrong example to follow. But it's quite obvious you know better.

haven't moved the goalposts once.

And i have already shown you that every team in the EPL has treated the Carabao Cup the same way as Spurs. So keep trying to shoe horn you BS argument about "other Cups" that has zero relevance on the Carabao Cup because you have no argument when it comes to that tournament.

 

[phisherman]

I think the point is that Spurs fans shouldn't be acting smug about certain cups when they haven't won anything recently.

 

[Evilo]

LOL, that City team is better than Spurs's starting team. Yes, and since I have no horse in this race, I'd say you're the one with objectivity problems here.

As for using their whole groups, I already told you why. Of course, you chose to ignore. Big teams use many backups in those cups because they are of less importance. But they try their best to win. Without question. Which is why the best teams win the Cups in Germany, France, Italy or Spain.

 

[Evilo]

haven't moved the goalposts once.

And i have already shown you that every team in the EPL has treated the Carabao Cup the same way as Spurs. So keep trying to shoe horn you BS argument about "other Cups" that has zero relevance on the Carabao Cup because you have no argument when it comes to that tournament.

You have. Numerous times.
You wrote in this thread that winning the EL and qualifying for the CL is less than finishing 2nd without a trophy.
You wrote that you either (post I quoted) "win the CC or finish 2nd", while the argument has always been about Cup+CL qualification. ("if Champions League qualification gets them a big payout and attracts quality players versus Carabao Cup which does neither why shouldn't they be happy with the one that improves the club?").

You have failed to develop ONE single argument. Your only point is attractiveness in finishing 2nd over CL+Cup, even though United and Arsenal have attracted more with lower finishes+trophies. You chose to ignore this while repeating the same thing over and over.
Your ONLY argument is debunked.

Worse, you choose to discredit my arguments focusing on the CC, while I've said "Cups" all along and when you say "but hey, that's the CC, it's different for other trophies", you're being redirected to your own post about Spurs' season being more successful than United's last year.

So which is it? You were wrong in saying Spurs vs United's season or you were wrong to say different cups matter differently?
In any case, your arguments continue to move after every post, simply because there's no defending your point of view here.
A CL qualification+trophy is ALWAYS better than CL qualification and nothing else. ALWAYS.

 

[Baxterman]

You have. Numerous times.
You wrote in this thread that winning the EL and qualifying for the CL is less than finishing 2nd without a trophy.
You wrote that you either (post I quoted) "win the CC or finish 2nd", while the argument has always been about Cup+CL qualification. ("if Champions League qualification gets them a big payout and attracts quality players versus Carabao Cup which does neither why shouldn't they be happy with the one that improves the club?").

You have failed to develop ONE single argument. Your only point is attractiveness in finishing 2nd over CL+Cup, even though United and Arsenal have attracted more with lower finishes+trophies. You chose to ignore this while repeating the same thing over and over.
Your ONLY argument is debunked.

Worse, you choose to discredit my arguments focusing on the CC, while I've said "Cups" all along and when you say "but hey, that's the CC, it's different for other trophies", you're being redirected to your own post about Spurs' season being more successful than United's last year.

So which is it? You were wrong in saying Spurs vs United's season or you were wrong to say different cups matter differently?
In any case, your arguments continue to move after every post, simply because there's no defending your point of view here.
A CL qualification+trophy is ALWAYS better than CL qualification and nothing else. ALWAYS.

Here is the problem is that we were discussing Carabao Cup and then I got sidetracked with another poster about the other issue. Sorry if you took that to mean we were talking about all Cups but that wasn't what i was doing.

I continually asked you to clarify about Caribao (and lesser Cups) but you never did, you just kept rambling on about how 'big clubs go after domestic cups' ignoring the fact that the big English clubs do not go after the Caribao Cup.

I have developed plenty of arguments just because you ignore them because they don't fit your narrative doesn't mean they don't exist.

Most importantly though Cups + CL does not always beat CL. Emirates Cup and 4th isn't better than 2nd with no Emirates Cup.

I was right in saying different Cups matter differently and i was right in saying that Spurs season was better than United's.

I have no idea why you keep trying to invent things that didn't happen. I haven't moved the goalposts once. I have always been adament in that a. the Caribao Cup doesn't matter and b. having a more talented team is more important to me than winning a trophy that I don't really care about.

The Spurs team last year was flat out better than Uniteds. The Spurs season was more fun to watch. The Spurs team in a vacuum was a better team going forward. So why wouldn't I take that over United's season?

 

[Evilo]

Because they won a major trophy.

No idea why you're bringing up friendlies in all of this. Again.

EPL teams don't care about the CC?
Here are last 4 winners :
United, City, Chelsea, City

Qualified for the next round : Arsenal, United, City, Chelsea

Of the current 5 teams leading the EPL, 4 are still in the competition, and it's worth noting that all of those 4 teams also take their european competitions seriously (be it CL or EL, no crashing against the Qarabag off the world).
So they're competing for 2 domestic Cups, a league title AND a european title.

Spurs are the only exception.

 

[Baxterman]

Because they won a major trophy.

No idea why you're bringing up friendlies in all of this. Again.

EPL teams don't care about the CC?
Here are last 4 winners :
United, City, Chelsea, City

Qualified for the next round : Arsenal, United, City, Chelsea

Of the current 5 teams leading the EPL, 4 are still in the competition, and it's worth noting that all of those 4 teams also take their european competitions seriously (be it CL or EL, no crashing against the Qarabag off the world).
So they're competing for 2 domestic Cups, a league title AND a european title.

Spurs are the only exception.

So if Spurs had beat West Ham then they would be considered in the group of teams that won?

Again take a look at the line-ups and tell me they take it more seriously than Spurs. They don't.

And yes the teams with the most depth have won this Cup not sure how that shows that they take it seriously. It shows that they have the depth so when they play their 2nd and 3rd teams they are able to beat the other guys 2nd and 3rd teams.

 

[Evilo]

Hardly. That shows they tried to win the Cup, either with their starters or their backups. And saying other teams start their backup is just wrong. Winning the CC for WH is a huge deal.
If they felt, like you have said in this thread that winning the CC would hinder their chances at qualifying for the CL, they wouldn't have even tried.

Right? That's your own logic.
Again, the top 5 in form teams in the EPL were all up this round. 4 went through, one lost at home.