Proposal: 2016-17 Trade Rumours and Proposals Thread Part VIII

[danielpalfredsson]

I can't believe we dealt Zib for an absolutely older and similar player in Brassard

Zibanejad was arbitration eligible next year. He's had considerable issues with showing up out of shape and having his commitment questioned dating back to the Paul MacLean days on the Senators. They've explored trading him previous (for Kadri) even before trading him for Brassard. All this evidence possibly points to them not going long term on Zibanejad next year. It isn't a certainty, and there is no way of knowing for sure, but if they weren't going to give Zibanejad the 5-6 year 5M-6M dollar type deal that young top 6 centers command, the age difference vs Brassard was irrelevant since both players will be controlled for the exact same amount of years going forward if Ottawa would have opted against a big money long term deal with zbad.

 

[Sensinitis]

If a player is playing good, I will say they are playing good.

If a player is playing bad, I will say they are playing bad.

Are there times a bad player makes a good play (Boro doing something right), yes. It's unfortunate that these few good plays seem to be pointed out to make a player seem like they are good.

Are there times a bad player makes a good play (Karlsson giveaways), yes. These don't get called out as much because it's not the norm.

If I asked you asked you how Ceci was playing, would you say he was playing good or bad? It's that simple. Of course he's made some good plays, but he is still not playing well. At all.

The bolded is essentially where we disagree.

I can't support the notion that he has "not played well at all".

I prefer to say he's been average for a #4 D. Has gotten lots of offensive opportunities that he didn't cash in on, has made some nice offensive possession plays and rushes, has made some excellent defensive plays. On the other hand, like most young dmen, his consistency defensively has been an issue, and sadly his offensive game, despite the chances, hasn't panned out (note that last season he got most his goals and points from January onward).

Just in the Pens game where everyone seemed to knock on him, I noticed multiple excellent plays he made defensively. "Small" plays, if you will. Not necessarily on a rush, but small battles for possession. He's good, he's starting to assert himself a bit more, and he's certainly shown he has the potential to be a two way 30+ pt RH dman. Which is very rare in this league.

Just like you (I'm guessing), the only issue I'm starting to be afraid of is his hockey IQ and quickness in decision making. Still, he's shown high IQ plays, and if he plays more instinctively that 2nd factor should be fixed on its own.

Ceci is probably THE player on this team we should most be patient with. Too bad 90% of this board isn't. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him for a top forward though, lol.

It's been widely agreed that while Larsson is a quality d-man Edmonton overpaid big time.

Hall/Larsson is not a good trade to base the market around.

"Widely agreed"? By whom? HfBoards?

That doesn't matter... Regardless, there seems to be a high demand for young RHDs with potential. Ceci certainly fits the bill. He had 10 goals and 26 points just last season. That's one point less than Seth Jones' career high 27 (got traded for 1C Johansen), and 2 points more than Larsson's (got traded for 1W Hall). Lots of teams would bite. He's shown nice offensive potential, and he's shown the ability to be good defensively. Like most young dmen, there's consistency issues in both areas.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

If ceci wasn't a first round pick I think some posters here would have a lot easier time saying "yeah. Ceci has been crap"

 

[50 in 07]

"Widely agreed"? By whom? HfBoards?

Still, in a vacuum, no matter how much Larsson might suit Edmonton's team needs, we're smearing lipstick on a pig if we call this a fair deal. The Oilers gave up too much for too little.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/a...nse-of-the-taylor-hall-for-adam-larsson-trade

The Devils traded a ‘B’ or a ‘B+’ for an ‘A’ player.

http://www.allaboutthejersey.com/20...lor-hall-adam-larsson-trade-new-jersey-devils

The Oilers have given up a prime asset — their best behind superstar-in-the-making Connor McDavid — for a player who probably won’t be better than a second-pairing defenseman. Those are the kinds of moves that get you fired and sink a franchise./

http://nesn.com/2016/06/oilers-return-in-taylor-hall-trade-with-devils-a-colossal-failure/

Right now, though, it looks like Edmonton paid a hefty price offensively for a comparatively small upgrade on its blue line.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/edmontons-risky-hall-larsson-trade-isnt-paying-off/

This is a landslide win for New Jersey. Even if the Edmonton Oilers are, as rumoured, poised to sign left winger Milan Lucic as a free agent, there is no justification for the Oilers to only get Larsson in return for Hall. Strictly in terms of asset management, it’s unacceptable.

http://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-oilers-don-t-get-nearly-enough-for-hall-1.517957

Larsson can definitely play, and I think he’s going to provide real tangible benefits to an Oilers team sorely in need of blueline help. But, the other side of the coin is that he seems to be a somewhat one-dimensional defender. That one dimension is great, but is it worth the premium of an elite scorer like Hall?

http://www.tsn.ca/why-one-dimensional-larsson-wasn-t-enough-for-hall-1.521260

This took about 5 minutes of cutting and pasting from the first page of Google

 

[50 in 07]

Basically, my point is although young RHD are probably the most valuable commodity in the league right now I wouldn't say Hall-Larsson is a good comparable if we're talking about trading Ceci because it's pretty clear Edmonton overpaid.

 

[Benjamin]

Ceci has looked anywhere between bad and great. Since early November he's been between good to great with the occasional bad. He's showing he can be a good player while not being sheltered, in a defensive top 4 role actually.

While players like Wiercioch and (post-rookie)Cowen were anywhere between complete garbage to barely passable, while getting easy minutes.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I'd rather move Ceci elsewhere and see if we can package some prospects and picks for Stone. Ceci could land us a good, young top 6 forward.

This is my wish as well.

We can also do:

Stone+Duclair

for

Ceci+Lazar

depending on what management think of Duclair

 

[Hale The Villain]

Zibanejad was arbitration eligible next year.

So? Arbitration typically doesn't give players massive salaries. Seems a bit of a stretch to suggest because he's arbitration eligible we would have had to have given him a big contract.

He's had considerable issues with showing up out of shape and having his commitment questioned dating back to the Paul MacLean days on the Senators.

This argument would make sense if it was still true. Dorion himself said that Zibanejad was spending the summer in Ottawa to work hard and put himself in a position to succeed, then he goes out and trades him.

Would have been nice to see what an in-shape and motivated Zibanejad could have done in a Sens uniform.

They've explored trading him previous (for Kadri) even before trading him for Brassard.

Which speaks to utter incompetence of the Sens' pro scouting staff.

All this evidence possibly points to them not going long term on Zibanejad next year. It isn't a certainty, and there is no way of knowing for sure, but if they weren't going to give Zibanejad the 5-6 year 5M-6M dollar type deal that young top 6 centers command

Zibanejad can command all he wants, but he's an RFA. Arbitration eligible or not, guy doesn't get to draw up his own contract. He could ask for 5-6 million, but unless he broke out in a big way with around 60 points (which is hardly a worst-case scenario for us), he probably doesn't get the same type of contract as guys like Barkov, Scheifele, Monahan, MacKinnon and Duchene. More likely he gets re-signed to a 4-5M a year contract, just like guys like Couturier, Trocheck, Rask, Bjugstad, Kadri and Killorn.

the age difference vs Brassard was irrelevant since both players will be controlled for the exact same amount of years going forward if Ottawa would have opted against a big money long term deal with zbad.

In order for your comparison to make sense, the Sens would have had to sign Zibanejad to a 3 year deal, which I believe is just enough years to make him a UFA in 2019/20 like Brassard. Why would they do something like that?

Why not sign Zibanejad to a long-term deal and trade him after 3 or so years? That way we still get a top 2 line center during that period, and when we no longer have a need for him, presumably because Brown and White have entered the fold and need spots to play, we can trade him for assets that can help the team in other areas.

That's what a smart GM would have done. Not make a lateral move by trading a (still developing) 23 year old top 6 center for a 29 year old top 6 center, giving away a 2nd round pick in the process.

In 3 years we'll be making the choice whether to re-sign a 32 year old Derick Brassard to a career-finishing contract, or let him walk for nothing, while the Rangers will have a 26 year old Mika Zibanejad just entering his prime. That's the definition of a long-term loser trade, and if Brassard doesn't pick it up soon, the trade will be a short-term loser as well.

 

[DanyHeatley]

Johnny Oduya and Dan Hamhuis are apparently the odd men out in defence for Dallas. Are they of any use for boucher and OTTs defence?

 

[edguy]

Johnny Oduya and Dan Hamhuis are apparently the odd men out in defence for Dallas. Are they of any use for boucher and OTTs defence?

Not at those caphits.

 

[topshelf15]

Meh ,Zibby is gone and i couldnt care less .He was never going to be the answer for what we need down the middle to be a contender.Brassard isnt either,but at least we arent married to him long term ,and should provide some a decent filler until hopefully White /Brown are ready

 

[Tuna99]

Ceci has looked anywhere between bad and great. Since early November he's been between good to great with the occasional bad. He's showing he can be a good player while not being sheltered, in a defensive top 4 role actually.

While players like Wiercioch and (post-rookie)Cowen were anywhere between complete garbage to barely passable, while getting easy minutes.

Ceci is not a natural defender, his instincts aren't Chris Phillips like. But he tries super hard, he has a head for the game and he never stops battling. So I'm happy with where Ceci is at. He's young, I think people forget when Chiara go here he could barely skate and his first pass was Boro like.

Ceci has a ton of room to grow, and he's becoming a completely different Dman then what we drafted. He was basically a skater with the puck and didn't play D for the 67s. Now he's defending all game it seems. Can't be easy for him to have to learn a new way of playing hockey.

I don't think he's the next Ed Jovonoski, I think he turns more into a Matias Ohlind. But reliable Dman with a huge shot that is a stabilizer. Just plays his 22 minutes a night against top competition.

 

[Icelevel]

Meh ,Zibby is gone and i couldnt care less .He was never going to be the answer for what we need down the middle to be a contender.Brassard isnt either,but at least we arent married to him long term ,and should provide some a decent filler until hopefully White /Brown are ready

you couldn't care less? confusing, coming from a senators fan.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Ceci is not a natural defender, his instincts aren't Chris Phillips like. But he tries super hard, he has a head for the game and he never stops battling. So I'm happy with where Ceci is at. He's young, I think people forget when Chiara go here he could barely skate and his first pass was Boro like.

Ceci has a ton of room to grow, and he's becoming a completely different Dman then what we drafted. He was basically a skater with the puck and didn't play D for the 67s. Now he's defending all game it seems. Can't be easy for him to have to learn a new way of playing hockey.

I don't think he's the next Ed Jovonoski, I think he turns more into a Matias Ohlind. But reliable Dman with a huge shot that is a stabilizer. Just plays his 22 minutes a night against top competition.

He has been in the NHL full time for a total of about 3 full seasons of games now. It looks like he tries super hard because it seems as though he doesn't know where he should be at times. Working hard doesn't necessarily mean working effectively.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Can we stop using chara as an example for any of our d men who are garbage after plenty of time in the NHL

It's the most ridiculous "this will make me feel better about player X" statement ever.

Oh no this player sucks, oh waaaiit adenosine chara also wasn't that great at that age

(Chances are. Chara was pretty good at that age and simply was not either exposed enough or simply wasn't used properly). He did not magically become one of the best defenders of the last 30 years.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Ceci is not a natural defender, his instincts aren't Chris Phillips like. But he tries super hard, he has a head for the game and he never stops battling. So I'm happy with where Ceci is at. He's young, I think people forget when Chiara go here he could barely skate and his first pass was Boro like.

Ceci has a ton of room to grow, and he's becoming a completely different Dman then what we drafted. He was basically a skater with the puck and didn't play D for the 67s. Now he's defending all game it seems. Can't be easy for him to have to learn a new way of playing hockey.

I don't think he's the next Ed Jovonoski, I think he turns more into a Matias Ohlind. But reliable Dman with a huge shot that is a stabilizer. Just plays his 22 minutes a night against top competition.

He has no head for the game.

Yes he's defending all game because he's not good enough toanthing other tanger hopelessly entrenched along the boards.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

The bolded is essentially where we disagree.

I can't support the notion that he has "not played well at all".

I prefer to say he's been average for a #4 D. Has gotten lots of offensive opportunities that he didn't cash in on, has made some nice offensive possession plays and rushes, has made some excellent defensive plays. On the other hand, like most young dmen, his consistency defensively has been an issue, and sadly his offensive game, despite the chances, hasn't panned out (note that last season he got most his goals and points from January onward).

Just in the Pens game where everyone seemed to knock on him, I noticed multiple excellent plays he made defensively. "Small" plays, if you will. Not necessarily on a rush, but small battles for possession. He's good, he's starting to assert himself a bit more, and he's certainly shown he has the potential to be a two way 30+ pt RH dman. Which is very rare in this league.

Just like you (I'm guessing), the only issue I'm starting to be afraid of is his hockey IQ and quickness in decision making. Still, he's shown high IQ plays, and if he plays more instinctively that 2nd factor should be fixed on its own.

Ceci is probably THE player on this team we should most be patient with. Too bad 90% of this board isn't. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him for a top forward though, lol.



"Widely agreed"? By whom? HfBoards?

That doesn't matter... Regardless, there seems to be a high demand for young RHDs with potential. Ceci certainly fits the bill. He had 10 goals and 26 points just last season. That's one point less than Seth Jones' career high 27 (got traded for 1C Johansen), and 2 points more than Larsson's (got traded for 1W Hall). Lots of teams would bite. He's shown nice offensive potential, and he's shown the ability to be good defensively. Like most young dmen, there's consistency issues in both areas.

To you last paragraph. The more this season goes on. The fewer the number of teams that will bite will Be

Wow 26 points last years. He's on pace for what? like 8 this year. Coupled with atrocious defending

Size skating and draft status might be the only thing this kid has left in 80-100 more games.

 

[Micklebot]

Can we stop using chara as an example for any of our d men who are garbage after plenty of time in the NHL

It's the most ridiculous "this will make me feel better about player X" statement ever.

Oh no this player sucks, oh waaaiit adenosine chara also wasn't that great at that age

(Chances are. Chara was pretty good at that age and simply was not either exposed enough or simply wasn't used properly). He did not magically become one of the best defenders of the last 30 years.

There are tons of examples of Dmen that didn't find their own until later in their careers. McCabbe is another example, if you prefer. He really didn't break out until he was about 26. Sourray took till about 27. Stralman didn't take off until he landed in NY at 25. Dan Boyle only took off in his 5th season at age 26. Brian Campbell was 26 and had 167 games under his belt before he found his game.

As for Chara, he absolutely did become a better player. That guy worked his ass off to improve every year and it paid off. He might not be the best example (relative to Ceci) but saying he just wasn't used properly or exposed enough is completely wrong and diminishes the crazy amount of work he put in to become the player he did.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

There are tons of examples of Dmen that didn't find their own until later in their careers. McCabbe is another example, if you prefer. He really didn't break out until he was about 26. Sourray took till about 27. Stralman didn't take off until he landed in NY at 25. Dan Boyle only took off in his 5th season at age 26. Brian Campbell was 26 and had 167 games under his belt before he found his game.

As for Chara, he absolutely did become a better player. That guy worked his ass off to improve every year and it paid off. He might not be the best example (relative to Ceci) but saying he just wasn't used properly or exposed enough is completely wrong and diminishes the crazy amount of work he put in to become the player he did.

Not diminishing anything that chara.

Now I honestly don't know. But we're those other guys given the opportunities that Cody has had? Like legit NHL minutes. Where fans got long looks at their younger selves and we're able to say "ok this guy couldn't be good "

We're any of them thought of as truly bad as some think of ceci.

 

[Shanny]

Ryan Garbutt is on waivers, could be a very cheap depth pickup if he makes it to us on the waiver wire.

 

[Micklebot]

Not diminishing anything that chara.

Now I honestly don't know. But we're those other guys given the opportunities that Cody has had? Like legit NHL minutes. Where fans got long looks at their younger selves and we're able to say "ok this guy couldn't be good "

We're any of them thought of as truly bad as some think of ceci.

Well, McCabbe was the Captain of the Islanders, so I'd say he got lots of opportunity. Those were just guys that I thought of off the top of my head, I'm sure if you went through the years, you could find countless more examples, and that doesn't even consider the fact that many defenders don't even start playing in the NHL by his age.

Beyond that, not everyone has the same opinion of Ceci as you have. Just like not everyone thought McCabbe, as an example, was god awful defensively.

 

[BatherSeason]

Fans refuse to appreciate the good plays Ceci makes and decide to focus on the negative.

Larsson is one of my fav dmen in the East other than Karlsson, Subban (before), Ristolainen, Letang, Hedman, Carlo (this year). I've watched him tons.

Ceci's ceiling is probably Larsson with slightly better offense. Adding Lazar and a 1st or other pieces makes up for that difference, and Hall is better than all those Avs forwards too, so that's another factor.

Please elaborate on these "good plays". The bad currently outweighs the good by a large amount.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Well, McCabbe was the Captain of the Islanders, so I'd say he got lots of opportunity. Those were just guys that I thought of off the top of my head, I'm sure if you went through the years, you could find countless more examples, and that doesn't even consider the fact that many defenders don't even start playing in the NHL by his age.

Beyond that, not everyone has the same opinion of Ceci as you have. Just like not everyone thought McCabbe, as an example, was god awful defensively.

Fair. Only time will tell.

But another thing. If you're gonna say or if anyone is going to say that some d men hit prime at 26 27 28 (which personally I don't think is valid in 85% of cases as the league is gettin faster). Do we have 5 years to wait for Cody ceci to become a serviceable/good top 4 d man?

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Please elaborate on these "good plays". The bad currently outweighs the good by a large amount.

Seriously. A few good plays will convince some posters that ceci or boro are good. But a bunch of backchecks will never convince them that Hoffman cares about defence. (Hoffman also offers near elite offense )

 

[Micklebot]

Fair. Only time will tell.

But another thing. If you're gonna say or if anyone is going to say that some d men hit prime at 26 27 28 (which personally I don't think is valid in 85% of cases as the league is gettin faster). Do we have 5 years to wait for Cody ceci to become a serviceable/good top 4 d man?

I think if we really looked at it, most Dmen only break into the league around Ceci's age. Is his lack of progress a bit concerning, sure. But he still has lots of time to figure it out. Just because other D go through these struggles in the AHL out of sight from most fans, doesn't mean they don't also have their struggles.