Salary Cap: 2016-17 Roster Building XXIV | You ain't landin' Landy

[Ogrezilla]

I think Duchene's the better player, but between the contract situations and with Horny needing an extension I would probably target Lando.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It just makes a lot more sense to me to go after Landeskog. Yeah, Duchene can play any position, but I'd much rather trade for a natural LWer than trade for a center who can also play RW or LW. The Penguins have Kessel (PPG winger), Hornqvist (50-55 point winger), Rust (30-40 point winger) and Kuhnhackl (25 point winger) on RW, I just really don't see the need for another RWer there. On LW, they have Sheary (40 point winger who's a 50 point winger with Crosby), Kunitz (trash), Hagelin (35-40 point winger) and Wilson (25-30 point winger), they desperately need an upgrade on Kunitz there. They need a Kessel on LW.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Honestly curious, but what pieces do the Pens have to get Landeskog or Duchene?

Colorado wants young, in their prime or entering their prime defense in return. Letang ain't going anywhere, so that leaves Maatta or Schultz. I think Schultz is still too much of a wildcard for a team to trade a key asset like Landeskog or Duchene for. So it's basically Maatta.

Two problems with that:
1-From Colorado's perspective, is Maatta's ceiling high enough? They seem to be looking for a top pairing guy, not another guy in the #3-5 range.
2-From Pittsburgh's perspective, is the Pens' defense becoming too weak if they trade Maatta? They're already looking kind of weak on defense even with Maatta, so how much worse will they be without him?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Bringing this comment in here.

Thinking about it like this and considering that the Avalanche could value Landeskog more than Duchene, man, I can kinda see it. Ship Fehr out, put Duchene with Crosby and Sheary and slide Rust to the 4th line and you're set. Well, "set" as in that's what they'd do. If you don't like those lines, try Duchene at LW. If Sid or Geno gets hurt, slide Duchene to center.

Honestly curious, but what pieces do the Pens have to get Landeskog or Duchene?

Colorado wants young, in their prime or entering their prime defense in return. Letang ain't going anywhere, so that leaves Maatta or Schultz. I think Schultz is still too much of a wildcard for a team to trade a key asset like Landeskog or Duchene for. So it's basically Maatta.

Two problems with that:
1-From Colorado's perspective, is Maatta's ceiling high enough? They seem to be looking for a top pairing guy, not another guy in the #3-5 range.
2-From Pittsburgh's perspective, is the Pens' defense becoming too weak if they trade Maatta? They're already looking kind of weak on defense even with Maatta, so how much worse will they be without him?

Maatta's ceiling is definitely high enough, I think they'd be more concerned with how good he is right now more than anything else. If he's not better right now than Zadorov in their eyes, why trade for him? I think him only having a #3 upside to them wouldn't be an issue, they're atrocious at LD and just having a #3 would be a huge help.

Like I said before, I think any deal would be Maatta, a top prospect or pick (my bet would be Sprong actually) and a cap dump for Duchene/Landeskog and Tyutin. JR won't trade Maatta to Colorado without getting back a defenseman for him and Tyutin is the logical guy there.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Landeskog is a great player, and in a vacuum is better than Maatta, but given our depth at F and lack thereof on D, I think that swap makes us weaker as a team. Olli is coming back into form, and is probably at this point our best penalty killer. That is an area we can't afford to get worse in.

Disagree. Landeskog for Maatta makes us a better team today, and likely for he foreseeable future.

 

[Epic Neal Time]

Does anyone think St. Louis could emerge as a Fleury suitor? Their goaltending lately.... Oh my.

 

[pensown]

why does Landeskog suck so much this year? Can he not create on his own?

 

[pistolpete11]

Does anyone think St. Louis could emerge as a Fleury suitor? Their goaltending lately.... Oh my.

I think so, but a few months ago, most people on this board told me that they are high on Jake Allen. So they wouldn't trade for Fleury to put themselves in the same position as the Pens are in now.

I'm not a believer in Jake Allen at all, though.

 

[PensandCaps]

guess if the blues really think its worth adding 5.75 in cap for a slight upgrade in net. i think not. allen is makng 4.35, so adding fleury would make it near 10 mil in average goaltending. not sure many teams would want allens contract, if they were to get fleury then unload allen.

 

[mpp9]

why does Landeskog suck so much this year? Can he not create on his own?

That team is terrible. And I doubt he's declining at 24 years old.

But yeah, he's not really a player who's gonna go up and down the ice and create chances left and right. He's more of a physical two way forward. He'd create space for 87/71 more so than help them carry the puck.

 

[Artie Party]

I think Landeskog could play with anyone. Duchene has the three position versatility and with Bonino sucking as much as he does, he could play 3C for a stretch and allow Kessel to move up.

Tough call especially with Landeskog signed longer. But then again, I'd sooner extend Duchene than Landeskog at 28.

Duchene makes alot more sense in my opinion. That allows you to let Bonino walk and gives you insurance as a 3C if Sundqvist isn't ready to take on the role til possibly 2018.

Would I do Maatta+Rust+Fehr for Duchene? Probably.

Is that enough? Maybe not.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

why does Landeskog suck so much this year? Can he not create on his own?

He's closer to a prime Kunitz than a Phil Kessel type of player.

 

[Penske]

That team is terrible. And I doubt he's declining at 24 years old.

But yeah, he's not really a player who's gonna go up and down the ice and create chances left and right. He's more of a physical two way forward. He'd create space for 87/71 more so than help them carry the puck.

He maybe the wrong target then. I think Sid with Sheary, Hornqvist is very good. HMK is crazy good. In a 3 scoring line model it'd be best to bring someone in to play with Bonino, Rust and that player would need to create there own offence. Like what Kessel did for HBK. Now we won't get anyone as good as Kessel but a player like that would make matching up against our top 9 scary.

 

[mpp9]

He maybe the wrong target then. I think Sid with Sheary, Hornqvist is very good. HMK is crazy good. In a 3 scoring line model it'd be best to bring someone in to play with Bonino, Rust and that player would need to create there own offence. Like what Kessel did for HBK. Now we won't get anyone as good as Kessel but a player like that would make matching up against our top 9 scary.

I'd take either player. Landeskog allows you to slot Kunitz in properly. (4th line or scratch). And replace what he used to be. Duchene gives you crazy speed and another threat every time he steps onto the ice. Not a team in the league could boast our speed and skill up front if you add him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't see how trading for Duchene to play center makes that much sense. You trade for him so he can play with Crosby and slide to center if Sid or Geno gets hurt. You don't pay out the ass for another forward you're not going to play with Crosby or Malkin. Keep Duchene with Crosby and Kessel with Malkin.

 

[PensandCaps]

Duchene makes alot more sense in my opinion. That allows you to let Bonino walk and gives you insurance as a 3C if Sundqvist isn't ready to take on the role til possibly 2018.

Would I do Maatta+Rust+Fehr for Duchene? Probably.

Is that enough? Maybe not.

think youd have to put something of value instead of fehr. id rather trade sprong than rust too. so maatta+sprong+1st+young roster player(wilson or DP or even simon) id do it for duchene.
sheary-crosby-hornqvist
guentzel-malkin-rust
hags-duchene-kessel

 

[Empoleon8771]

think youd have to put something of value instead of fehr. id rather trade sprong than rust too. so maatta+sprong+1st+young roster player(wilson or DP or even simon) id do it for duchene.
sheary-crosby-hornqvist
guentzel-malkin-rust
hags-duchene-kessel

That's an obscene overpayment for Duchene and why in God's name are we keeping both Duchene and Kessel off of Sid's and Geno's lines?

 

[Penske]

I don't see how trading for Duchene to play center makes that much sense. You trade for him so he can play with Crosby and slide to center if Sid or Geno gets hurt. You don't pay out the ass for another forward you're not going to play with Crosby or Malkin. Keep Duchene with Crosby and Kessel with Malkin.

If we did that our 3 line scoring model doesn't work that well.

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
X/Rust-Bonino-X/Rust
is the way to go.

Landeskog is not a guy that'll carry that line so you don't want to pay a big price for someone who doesn't fit. Duchene seems like he would but he prefers and feels like he is better at centre and his price would be big. If the cost is too high they'd have to look elsewhere.

 

[PensandCaps]

That's an obscene overpayment for Duchene and why in God's name are we keeping both Duchene and Kessel off of Sid's and Geno's lines?

because youd get a crazy 3 line attack. no one could stop it.
hags-duchene-kessel would be pretty fast too.

 

[Empoleon8771]

because youd get a crazy 3 line attack. no one could stop it.
hags-duchene-kessel would be pretty fast too.

A "3 line attack" is worthless when your top-6 can't produce enough. People need to let go of the 3 line attack idea. It worked last year, but the primary plan every season should be making as strong of a top-6 as you can while making a good 3rd line. We don't need to have a borderline 1st line as the 3rd line to be effective.

If we did that our 3 line scoring model doesn't work that well.

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
X/Rust-Bonino-X/Rust
is the way to go.

Landeskog is not a guy that'll carry that line so you don't want to pay a big price for someone who doesn't fit. Duchene seems like he would but he prefers and feels like he is better at centre and his price would be big. If the cost is too high they'd have to look elsewhere.

Sheary-Crosby-Duchene
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Guentzel-Bonino-Hornqvist
Wilson-Cullen-Rust

What exactly is wrong with that forward group? Why is having a 3rd line like that a problem?

 

[Artie Party]

So hypothetically,

Maatta+Rust+Fehr+1st+2nd/3rd for Duchene+Tyutin

I think COL would have to retain a little to make it work for the cap.

Sheary-Crosby-Duchene
Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Cullen-Hornqvist
Kuhnhackl-Bonino-Wilson

Dumo-Letang
Daley-Schultz
Cole-Tyutin

 

[PensandCaps]

A "3 line attack" is worthless when your top-6 can't produce enough. People need to let go of the 3 line attack idea. It worked last year, but the primary plan every season should be making as strong of a top-6 as you can while making a good 3rd line. We don't need to have a borderline 1st line as the 3rd line to be effective.



Sheary-Crosby-Duchene
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Guentzel-Bonino-Hornqvist
Wilson-Cullen-Rust

What exactly is wrong with that forward group? Why is having a 3rd line like that a problem?

uhh. its the same top 6 that won the cup and 2 of the players are top 5 in scoring...

 

[Penske]

A "3 line attack" is worthless when your top-6 can't produce enough. People need to let go of the 3 line attack idea. It worked last year, but the primary plan every season should be making as strong of a top-6 as you can while making a good 3rd line. We don't need to have a borderline 1st line as the 3rd line to be effective.



Sheary-Crosby-Duchene
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Guentzel-Bonino-Hornqvist
Wilson-Cullen-Rust

What exactly is wrong with that forward group? Why is having a 3rd line like that a problem?

It might not be a problem but I think with that line up swapping Hornqvist with Duchene cause more headaches and match up problems with the opposition. What's the problem with that line up? I think that's how Sully would see it too.

Guentzel won't be up unless we have injuries. Also you'd want him to be up now to see what he could do over a bigger sample size. I don't see him in the line up this season even if a longer stint is well deserved.

Sid is having one of his best seasons with Sheary and Hornqvist. HMK is awesome and would be hard to shut down.

 

[hooverdam]

why does Landeskog suck so much this year? Can he not create on his own?

It's usage. They have no one else on the team who can play defense besides him and MacKinnon, so they're taking the tough match-ups. That means they also get deployed with the Avs' versions of "shutdown D", which means no puck movement (no Barrie, no puck movement on that team), no real support down low, no sustained cycle, just whatever they can possibly create off the rush. Landeskog's bread and butter is on the forecheck but there's just nothing in the current configuration of players that lets him do that. When he's out there with Barrie, who can theoretically help sustain a cycle, he looks like a different player.

This is another reason I'd rather target Duchene. We have a handful of wingers with Landeskog's skillset to varying degrees (Hornqvist, Rust, Hagelin, Wilson, Kunitz in theory, and Sheary to a lesser extent) and not enough pure skill outside of Kessel. Even subtracting Hornqvist somehow, it's almost lateral in terms of the mix on the team. This is how you go down the "we're not a skill team, we're a grinding team" slippery slope again and get problems like Malkin being the only one on his line who can do anything with the puck.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It might not be a problem but I think with that line up swapping Hornqvist with Duchene cause more headaches and match up problems with the opposition. What's the problem with that line up? I think that's how Sully would see it too.

Guentzel won't be up unless we have injuries. Also you'd want him to be up now to see what he could do over a bigger sample size. I don't see him in the line up this season even if a longer stint is well deserved.

Sid is having one of his best seasons with Sheary and Hornqvist. HMK is awesome and would be hard to shut down.

With Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist, you're relying on Crosby doing all of the heavy lifting on that line. Duchene has to have a Kessel-like impact on that 3rd line for that forward group to be successful (as in repeat as a cup winner). That top line probably isn't productive enough without an elite 3rd line. Is Duchene on that line "elite"? I don't know, it all depends on fit and how well he can play the wing.

If we're going the 3 line attack again, I'd honestly rather see Duchene at center. I've already made my opinion of trading for Duchene to play center clear, I don't want to do it.