Prospect Info: 2016-17 Flyers Prospects - Top 20 SKATERS, #1

[FLYguy3911]

Again, my concern is with the fact that Sanheim's offensive success is largely derived from his ability to exploit poor gaps and slow decision making of junior opponents-- ie, things that are distinctly available at the junior level but not the pros. When a speedy 6'4 defender with hands like Sanheim's comes barreling down on a 17 year old WHL defender, Sanheim's going to make him look silly more often than not. Junior players don't know how to defend against a player with that skill set, and you can see it in those clips or any time you watch a Hitmen game.

Provorov's offensive success doesn't come from any particular exploitation of junior level weaknesses in his opponents. Yeah, he reads the game at an exceptional level, but so does Sanheim. Instead, Provorov's success comes from a relatively simple and efficient place. His assists come from savvy breakout passes and simple looks in the offensive zone. His goals come from quick shovel shots from the point. In other words, these are plays that are available frequently in the NHL.

I would say that is a unique way of looking at it but I don't really agree with it. That would be like people questioning how Leonard Fournette's game translates to the NFL because he is bigger and faster than his competition in college. He's still going to be big and fast at the next level. Will he have the same success rate as a pro? Of course not, but most would predict he'll still be quite good. You'll also notice in most of those clips posted the end result isn't a goal, so he's still getting points in traditional ways. I mean he is the highest scoring defenseman on a per game basis in two decades in the WHL, he must have been doing something right. Even if I play along and say he put up a lot of points that aren't transferable to the NHL, how many is that? He still put up a lot of points on a team that struggled to score for stretches.

I guess Sanheim was the only one that benefited from those poor gaps and slow decision makers in the WHL. Not like Provorov played in the same conference or anything. Look at the goals Provorov scored this year. About 2/3 of the goals he scored were prime chances at the hash marks and below. Do we discredit them as well? There's been this weird belief since last year that Sanheim gets points because he jumps in the rush and Provorov doesn't. Provorov joins the rush just as much and Sanheim. And I don't think that is a bad thing. It is such a weapon to have defensemen that can not only join the rush but make plays on the rush.

Regarding Gostisbehere, I mean, the things he did in the NHL really aren't all that similar to those clips of Sanheim. The spin-o-rama isn't exactly a new invention... like I said, Sanheim's got a truly unique skill set. Gostisbehere is fantastic, but he isn't a player that the NHL hasn't seen before. Sanheim is a different beast entirely. I mean, to be honest, this is just as much an argument for Sanheim as it is against him. My point isn't that Sanheim is anything less than awesome... just that his skill set is truly unique, and no one can be sure how it will adapt. Whereas with players like Provorov and Gostisbehere, I think it was a lot easier to project.

I always struggled to find a comparison for Gostisbehere when he was a prospect because he did play a unique game so I don't really agree with your assessment there. I remember posting clips of his one man breakouts and people saying he wouldn't be able to do that in the NHL or that he wouldn't be able to take 5 one-timers on a single powerplay. Sometimes when you have an elite skillset the league has to make adjustments to you not the other way around.

As far as comparables for Sanheim, Dougie Hamilton is a recent example that comes to mind. Elite production in junior and has two 40+ point seasons in the NHL before his 23rd birthday.

Ultimately, our difference is that you have little doubt that Sanheim's skill set will translate. I'm just less certain. Totally respect where you're coming from-- you've obviously seen more of Sanheim than anyone.

I'll just say If you're going to make the case Provorov >> Sanheim I wouldn't be arguing it on the offensive side of the puck. Sanheim to me just has tremendous offensive instincts in all situations I have little doubt about that part translating to the NHL barring extreme usage.

But Provorov doesn't try to beat defenders or lug the puck from end to end or play keep away in the offensive zone. Like I said above, he makes simple, efficient plays and reads. I've said before, where Sanheim is an offensive "generator"... Provorov is more of an offensive "facilitator", so I definitely agree that Provorov's offense will be much more dependent on his teammates. Remember, I'm not arguing that Provorov will be better offensively-- only that his skills are easier to project. His ability to make those simple and efficient plays isn't going to go anywhere when he jumps from juniors to pros. Sanheim's ability to lug the puck, beat defenders, and play keep away is a little more questionable.

Provorov lugs the puck quite often actually. His patented move is the wheel behind the net on his backhand and he weaves across center ice. He doesn't have the hand skill/flexibility to beat defenders one-on-one and smartly doesn't force a move. Instead he often dishes to a streaking teammate around the blueline. I've watched Provorov quite a bit and I can't recall many instances where he carried the puck below the dots. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is valuable to have defensemen that can get involved in the cycle and maintain possession.

You're more than welcome to question if Sanheim's offense will translate to the next level. He's a prospect after all and that is the purpose of this forum, but if you are going to question that, you have to almost question anything translating to the NHL. Like how is Provorov going to transition to a team that doesn't dominate possession ~60% of the time? Or why did Provorov's scoring rate in the playoffs get cut almost in half the last 2 years?

 

[Random Forest]

I would say that is a unique way of looking at it but I don't really agree with it. That would be like people questioning how Leonard Fournette's game translates to the NFL because he is bigger and faster than his competition in college. He's still going to be big and fast at the next level. Will he have the same success rate as a pro? Of course not, but most would predict he'll still be quite good. You'll also notice in most of those clips posted the end result isn't a goal, so he's still getting points in traditional ways. I mean he is the highest scoring defenseman on a per game basis in two decades in the WHL, he must have been doing something right. Even if I play along and say he put up a lot of points that aren't transferable to the NHL, how many is that? He still put up a lot of points on a team that struggled to score for stretches.

I guess Sanheim was the only one that benefited from those poor gaps and slow decision makers in the WHL. Not like Provorov played in the same conference or anything. Look at the goals Provorov scored this year. About 2/3 of the goals he scored were prime chances at the hash marks and below. Do we discredit them as well? There's been this weird belief since last year that Sanheim gets points because he jumps in the rush and Provorov doesn't. Provorov joins the rush just as much and Sanheim. And I don't think that is a bad thing. It is such a weapon to have defensemen that can not only join the rush but make plays on the rush.

Yes, Sanheim benefited far more from those poor gaps and slow decision makers than Provorov because Sanheim's a much more active and up-tempo style player. You can suggest that they both jump into the rush, but Sanheim was regularly leading the rush and actively carrying the puck into the zone and on the attack. I mean, I know you're aware of how often Sanheim would go on his patented "keep away" shifts. It's not an attack on Sanheim to suggest that a trait like that is less transferrable to the NHL than Provorov's tendency to get the puck behind his net or on his blueline in transition and methodically wait for a play to develop.

I'm not arguing that Provorov will outscore Sanheim or be a better offensive player at the NHL. Not even close-- perhaps I didn't make this clear. I'm suggesting that the factors that make each of them elite prospects are not equally likely to adapt to the NHL game. I have little doubt that Sanheim will be very good offensively (better than Provorov), but in terms of what makes each player dominate juniors, it's hard for me to see how Provorov's skill set isn't the safer overall bet. In other words, if Sanheim isn't elite offensively, what is he?

I always struggled to find a comparison for Gostisbehere when he was a prospect because he did play a unique game so I don't really agree with your assessment there. I remember posting clips of his one man breakouts and people saying he wouldn't be able to do that in the NHL or that he wouldn't be able to take 5 one-timers on a single powerplay. Sometimes when you have an elite skillset the league has to make adjustments to you not the other way around.

I don't find it all that hard to compare certain attributes of Gostisbehere to current NHLers. There's different shades of Karlsson, Shattenkirk, Vatanen, and even Streit to his game, for example. I love Ghost, but his skill set really isn't as unique as you suggest. In comparison, I struggle to find a single defender who dominates the offensive game in the same style or manner as Sanheim.

As far as comparables for Sanheim, Dougie Hamilton is a recent example that comes to mind. Elite production in junior and has two 40+ point seasons in the NHL before his 23rd birthday.

Yeah, in terms of numbers, sure... but I don't see them as stylistically similar at all. Sometimes I see some similarities with Hedman, but that's really only in terms of skating style with the puck... there really isn't anyone who attacks in the offensive zone like Sanheim does. Again, that's probably more good than bad... I just say it makes him harder to project.

I'll just say If you're going to make the case Provorov >> Sanheim I wouldn't be arguing it on the offensive side of the puck. Sanheim to me just has tremendous offensive instincts in all situations I have little doubt about that part translating to the NHL barring extreme usage.

Yeah, that's not what I'm arguing at all.

Provorov lugs the puck quite often actually. His patented move is the wheel behind the net on his backhand and he weaves across center ice. He doesn't have the hand skill/flexibility to beat defenders one-on-one and smartly doesn't force a move. Instead he often dishes to a streaking teammate around the blueline. I've watched Provorov quite a bit and I can't recall many instances where he carried the puck below the dots. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is valuable to have defensemen that can get involved in the cycle and maintain possession.

Okay, this conversation is obviously relative to Provorov and Sanheim alone. Yes, Provorov lugs the puck, but clearly this is in the context of a Sanheim comparison where it's no contest. And even when Provorov does carry the puck, he's not looking to make overly creative plays. He's generally only carrying it until a simple pass opens up.

You're more than welcome to question if Sanheim's offense will translate to the next level. He's a prospect after all and that is the purpose of this forum, but if you are going to question that, you have to almost question anything translating to the NHL. Like how is Provorov going to transition to a team that doesn't dominate possession ~60% of the time? Or why did Provorov's scoring rate in the playoffs get cut almost in half the last 2 years?

Wait, so we can't question something about a particular player's projection without questioning all things about every other player? Of course other players have question marks surrounding them. I know you like your Sanheim, but you're coming off a bit overly defensive here.

 

[Gsus]

I was surprised to see the margin for Provorov. I thought Konecny is right up there, he's as fast as Provy I'd say and he's very dynamic.

 

[Hockeypete49]

Provorov didn't even get an 'A' in Brandon, and they have a 'C', and 3 'A's. So I'm not sure why he's our future captain. He actually seems like a very reserved, soft spoken guy.

Of our top prospects, Morin easily seems the most outgoing and personable. Allison might not be far behind.

Not a prospect, but Ghost seems like the most likely candidate as a future captain.

I do not know him as well as you. But when he had the mic on last year I liked what I heard. When his teammate scored that goal and they got back to the bench he leaned over and told his pal to act like he had been there before. You do not have to be a rah rah guy to be a leader. Bobby Clarke did some of his best work in meetings and the locker room. Ivan will be a better pro than a Wheat King. Ghost very well could be a future "C". We all know what a big fan of Sam's I am but as far as Allison goes you have me there again as I really do not know him as well as you. Thanks for the heads up. Our future sure as hell is bright.

 

[CodyTheHuman]

Voted for Sanheim just like last year. I'll keep voting for him until he's not a prospect. He has something that Provorov doesn't have.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Yes, Sanheim benefited far more from those poor gaps and slow decision makers than Provorov because Sanheim's a much more active and up-tempo style player. You can suggest that they both jump into the rush, but Sanheim was regularly leading the rush and actively carrying the puck into the zone and on the attack. I mean, I know you're aware of how often Sanheim would go on his patented "keep away" shifts. It's not an attack on Sanheim to suggest that a trait like that is less transferrable to the NHL than Provorov's tendency to get the puck behind his net or on his blueline in transition and methodically wait for a play to develop.

How do you prove that exactly?

And even if that's true and that part of his game gets completely shut out at the next level, is he not capable of getting "the puck behind his net or on his blueline in transition and methodically wait for a play to develop"? You've even admitted he thinks the game at an exceptional level. What would be the issue? I've been saying the last two years the thing I love about Sanheim's game is I think he can thrive when the pace picks up or when it slows down. Whereas Gostisbehere loves to push the pace and Provorov prefers to slow the pace down.

In other words, if Sanheim isn't elite offensively, what is he?

A 6'4 defenseman that can skate, handle the puck, move it up the ice, PK, play on a 2nd PP unit, and play RD and LD?

What is Provorov if he is just an average offensive player?

I don't find it all that hard to compare certain attributes of Gostisbehere to current NHLers. There's different shades of Karlsson, Shattenkirk, Vatanen, and even Streit to his game, for example. I love Ghost, but his skill set really isn't as unique as you suggest. In comparison, I struggle to find a single defender who dominates the offensive game in the same style or manner as Sanheim.

Yeah, in terms of numbers, sure... but I don't see them as stylistically similar at all. Sometimes I see some similarities with Hedman, but that's really only in terms of skating style with the puck... there really isn't anyone who attacks in the offensive zone like Sanheim does. Again, that's probably more good than bad... I just say it makes him harder to project.

Certain attributes sure, but not the total package. The one guy that kept coming up was Karlsson but everyone was afraid to say it. Agree to disagree on the unique skillset of Gostisbehere. The only one that has a better combination of hands, skating, shot, and instincts is Karlsson imo(albeit a level or two higher).

If we're talking certain aspects, Sanheim has some Hedman, some Burns, Hamilton, Brodie, OEL. Again not the full package of those guys, but certain traits that you can envision playing at the next level. Like Gostisbehere and Karlsson you don't want to throw those comparisons out blindly because those guys are elite players in this league and Sanheim still has a bit of ways to go.

Okay, this conversation is obviously relative to Provorov and Sanheim alone. Yes, Provorov lugs the puck, but clearly this is in the context of a Sanheim comparison where it's no contest. And even when Provorov does carry the puck, he's not looking to make overly creative plays. He's generally only carrying it until a simple pass opens up.

If you said this last year I probably would have agreed with you. This year Provorov carried the puck a ton and the numbers support it. As for the second part, I agree, but again I think it's because he knows his game and that he can't beat guys one-on-one so he gets the puck to guys that can create. Could it also be that Provorov trusted his teammates more to make plays? Sanheim gave up the puck quite a bit more last year when the Hitmen actually had playmakers up front. I remember saying multiple times last year I wish he was more aggressive and that he would look to shoot more. This year aside from Stukel they didn't have a single forward that could create off the rush (and he didn't even start the season on the team). If him or Bean weren't creating the offense they were playing catch-up all night.

Wait, so we can't question something about a particular player's projection without questioning all things about every other player? Of course other players have question marks surrounding them. I know you like your Sanheim, but you're coming off a bit overly defensive here.

Oh god. The defensive ******** again. Weren't you telling someone a few weeks ago to let people have an opinion? I knew when I posted the clips you would have something to say.

I'm just saying if you're going to question Sanheim's offense or certain parts of his offense after he had one of the best offensive seasons by a WHL defenseman in recent memory, then you have to open up the book on every prospect and question how their main asset translates to the NHL. I mean you can deny it all you want but it certainly appears to me you're dinging the kid, or questioning his potential, because he has more levels to his game offensively and he can do more with the puck. Like he can dangle around defenders, but he can't make a simple breakout pass on the rush? Makes no sense to me. You can try to justify your argument all you want- I DO NOT AGREE.

If you don't think he'll ever be a dominate defensive player or that he won't be able to separate guys from the puck or that he's not mean or physical enough, those are all much more valid concerns of Sanheim's game.

 

[Random Forest]

How do you prove that exactly?

How do I prove Sanheim is a more active and up-tempo defender? Seriously?

And even if that's true and that part of his game gets completely shut out at the next level, is he not capable of getting "the puck behind his net or on his blueline in transition and methodically wait for a play to develop"? You've even admitted he thinks the game at an exceptional level. What would be the issue? I've been saying the last two years the thing I love about Sanheim's game is I think he can thrive when the pace picks up or when it slows down. Whereas Gostisbehere loves to push the pace and Provorov prefers to slow the pace down.

No, I don't think he's quite as adept as Provorov in transition or on the breakout. Sanheim will translate to the NHL in some capacity, I have very little doubt about that. And he's the second or third best D prospect in all of hockey FFS, so I clearly think he has all the potential in the world to be elite. I've only ever argued that I have less certainty about Sanheim's elite skills translating relative to Provorov who I think has a skill set that relies less on competitive advantages that exist at the junior level and more on advantages that will be evident across all levels of hockey.

A 6'4 defenseman that can skate, handle the puck, move it up the ice, PK, play on a 2nd PP unit, and play RD and LD?

What is Provorov if he is just an average offensive player?

I'd say if Provorov has average offensive skills in the NHL, he could still be in the ballpark of Hampus Lindholm, which is pretty damn good.

If you said this last year I probably would have agreed with you. This year Provorov carried the puck a ton and the numbers support it. As for the second part, I agree, but again I think it's because he knows his game and that he can't beat guys one-on-one so he gets the puck to guys that can create. Could it also be that Provorov trusted his teammates more to make plays? Sanheim gave up the puck quite a bit more last year when the Hitmen actually had playmakers up front. I remember saying multiple times last year I wish he was more aggressive and that he would look to shoot more. This year aside from Stukel they didn't have a single forward that could create off the rush (and he didn't even start the season on the team). If him or Bean weren't creating the offense they were playing catch-up all night.

Yeah, this is all fair, and I have no real contention except I just don't think you can compare the way Sanheim exploits his opponents while lugging the puck and attacking the zone to Provorov who generally only carries the puck in for the purpose of holding it until something materializes.

Oh god. The defensive ******** again. Weren't you telling someone a few weeks ago to let people have an opinion? I knew when I posted the clips you would have something to say.

Huh? I don't think I've called you on being defensive before. That particular line was pretty defensive though.

I'm also curious why you were so sure I would have something to say. Do you consider me some kind of Sanheim hater or something? Genuinely confused. I enjoyed watching those clips every bit as much as you did. I just don't know whether I should expect to see those types of plays at the NHL level simply because I never see other NHL defenders make plays like that. Is it really such an unreasonable claim? It's not even a criticism of the kid...

I mean, look, other people have called you a fanboy for your take on Sanheim. I don't. You called it with this kid before the NHL scouts did. Credit to you. But if you're interpreting my comments as anything less than enthusiastic praise, than frankly, you are being a little defensive. I have him virtually tied with Werenski for the #2 defensive prospect in the world. I think he has the potential to be a 60+ point player some day. I think his skill set is unlike any other defender in the league today. And simply because I express some degree of caution with regard to the full transferability of his skill set that makes me a Sanheim detractor? If you don't want me to call you defensive, just don't be defensive.

I'm just saying if you're going to question Sanheim's offense or certain parts of his offense after he had one of the best offensive seasons by a WHL defenseman in recent memory, then you have to open up the book on every prospect and question how their main asset translates to the NHL.

No, you really don't. What were your thoughts on Anthony Deangelo after he shredded the OHL? Did you have to open the book on every prospect because you (rightfully) were not very high on him and his ability to translate? Moreover, I'm still super freaking high on Sanheim! I'm not "dinging" the kid at all. The sky IS the limit for his offensive game. I'm just not ready to fully accept with total certainty that the more dynamic facets of his junior game will transfer to the NHL.

I mean you can deny it all you want but it certainly appears to me you're dinging the kid, or questioning his potential, because he has more levels to his game offensively and he can do more with the puck. Like he can dangle around defenders, but he can't make a simple breakout pass on the rush? Makes no sense to me. You can try to justify your argument all you want- I DO NOT AGREE.

I did NOT say this or imply it in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Tripod]

Boy...this offseason is going to be fun.

 

[Striiker]

Boy...this offseason is going to be fun.

Fight me, Tripod.

 

[Random Forest]

Boy...this offseason is going to be fun.

I don't know if you're sarcastic or not, but I genuinely enjoy a discussion like this one with a poster who clearly knows what he's talking about with a position that he feels strongly about that I just happen to disagree with. More often than not, debates on here are extremely superficial, so isn't it pretty cool that in our first prospect poll we can legitimately have it out over which of our top 3 all-NHL D prospects is best?

 

[Tripod]

Fight me, Tripod.

I'm a lover not a fighter.

I don't know if you're sarcastic or not, but I genuinely enjoy a discussion like this one with a poster who clearly knows what he's talking about with a position that he feels strongly about that I just happen to disagree with. More often than not, debates on here are extremely superficial, so isn't it pretty cool that in our first prospect poll we can legitimately have it out over which of our top 3 all-NHL D prospects is best?

Sure. Have at it.

 

[FlyTimmo]

No, but Sanheim could be a 60-70 point Dman....and Provy doesn't have the potential to be that IMO.

I am just happy we have them both! Then add in the offense of Ghost. And the size and meanness of Morin. Then Myers. And....

So happy we have hope on the way. And then next years draft we will start adding more D as all it pipelines are filled up. I expect a much more balanced draft next year.

In the last 15 years how many teams have had multiple D with over 60 points? I am curious. As Gostisbehere, Sanheim and Provorov all have that potential in them. But are there enough scoring opportunities/PP time/ice time/etc for multiple of them to reach that?

A defense requires balance. You can't have a set of Gositisbehere's or a set of Morin's. My favorite part about our potential future D-core is the balance. Each player fills a different role.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I have a more simplistic take on Sanheim. If someone has that hand-eye coordination, foot speed and dexterity, if he can play at speed and his hands and brain are keeping up, if he has the vision and creativity to make the plays he makes ... if he has all of this in his locker - and there is no question that he does - all he has to do is apply it at the NHL level. Maybe his dangles and toe drags and tricks and domination won't transfer in their present form to the NHL, but that core set of elite physical and mental characteristics come with him. The application of those core skills - with the help of quality coaching, which I fully expect him to get out of Hak - should see him succeed. There are no guarantees, obviously, but there's also little reason to doubt that he will become something at least a little special. (And I am not suggesting anyone has heavy doubts about him.)

 

[FlyTimmo]

No, but Sanheim could be a 60-70 point Dman....and Provy doesn't have the potential to be that IMO.

I am just happy we have them both! Then add in the offense of Ghost. And the size and meanness of Morin. Then Myers. And....

So happy we have hope on the way. And then next years draft we will start adding more D as all it pipelines are filled up. I expect a much more balanced draft next year.

In the last 15 years how many teams have had multiple D with over 55-60 points? I am curious. As Gostisbehere, Sanheim and Provorov all have that potential in them. But are there enough scoring opportunities/PP time/ice time/etc for multiple of them to reach that?

Next year will be a very big year for our prospects.

 

[Jray42]

Outside of Appleyard, I find both HF7 & Flyguy to probably be the two of the most well spoken (written) posters on this board, particularly when it comes to our prospects. I definitely respect their opinions more than most. I'm enjoying this argument/ discussion

I tend to personally agree with Flyguy more, but I'm with HF7 on this one.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Outside of Appleyard, I find Azir to probably be the most well spoken (written) poster on this board, particularly when it comes to our prospects. I definitely respect his opinions more than most.

I tend to personally agree with Azir more, and I'm with Azir on this one.

Fixed.

 

[Dicky Dangles]

Provocop.

 

[FLYguy3911]

How do I prove Sanheim is a more active and up-tempo defender? Seriously?

No. How does Sanheim benefit more from the sloppy play of junior defenders and defensive breakdowns (in the same league and conference) than Provorov? If your answer is he's a more active and up-tempo defender, I don't agree with that. You can exploit those things in more ways than just being a more active player. As I pointed out more than 2/3 of Provorov's goals this year came from the hashmarks and below. Why? Because he recognized a defensive breakdown, skated to open ice, and his teammate hit him with a pass. Check out that goal against Red Deer in the playoffs. He got the puck in the slot and was so wide open he got to unleash a ****ing full windup slapshot!

I'd say if Provorov has average offensive skills in the NHL, he could still be in the ballpark of Hampus Lindholm, which is pretty damn good.

I'd say a little less than that, but still a valuable player, which was the point I was trying to make.

I just don't think you can compare the way Sanheim exploits his opponents while lugging the puck and attacking the zone to Provorov who generally only carries the puck in for the purpose of holding it until something materializes.

We're just not going to agree on this.

Huh? I don't think I've called you on being defensive before. That particular line was pretty defensive though.

I'm also curious why you were so sure I would have something to say. Do you consider me some kind of Sanheim hater or something? Genuinely confused. I enjoyed watching those clips every bit as much as you did. I just don't know whether I should expect to see those types of plays at the NHL level simply because I never see other NHL defenders make plays like that. Is it really such an unreasonable claim? It's not even a criticism of the kid...

I mean, look, other people have called you a fanboy for your take on Sanheim. I don't. You called it with this kid before the NHL scouts did. Credit to you. But if you're interpreting my comments as anything less than enthusiastic praise, than frankly, you are being a little defensive. I have him virtually tied with Werenski for the #2 defensive prospect in the world. I think he has the potential to be a 60+ point player some day. I think his skill set is unlike any other defender in the league today. And simply because I express some degree of caution with regard to the full transferability of his skill set that makes me a Sanheim detractor? If you don't want me to call you defensive, just don't be defensive.

Without getting into a back and forth over nothing to do with the thread, I'll just say going back to last year, anyone who even hinted that Sanheim might be a better prospect than Provorov seemed to provoke you whether you realize it or not. You're posts sometimes come off like it's absurd to prefer Sanheim to Provorov. You have questions about Sanheim. I have questions about Provorov. I don't think either of us are right or wrong. These kids are still prospects. Not saying this applies to you, but I think that gets lost around here no matter how many times it is pointed out. Gostisbehere was ranked as what the 4th best prospect in the system last year? He might turn out to be the best one.

Realizing I am higher on Sanheim than probably everyone but Stizzle on this board and as this poll shows I am clearly in the minority in preferring Sanheim to Provorov as a prospect, I should be prepared for the arguments now.

No, you really don't. What were your thoughts on Anthony Deangelo after he shredded the OHL? Did you have to open the book on every prospect because you (rightfully) were not very high on him and his ability to translate? Moreover, I'm still super freaking high on Sanheim! I'm not "dinging" the kid at all. The sky IS the limit for his offensive game. I'm just not ready to fully accept with total certainty that the more dynamic facets of his junior game will transfer to the NHL.

For Deangelo, I'll say there are/were much bigger question marks than his offense at the pro level but you're aware of those issues. Deangelo's numbers got inflated by playing on that SSM team that was the highest scoring team in the OHL in ~20 years. Coincidentally enough, with Sarnia his PPG was 1.31 (same as Sanheim). Difference being Deangelo is 5'10, less projectable, and the raw tools are not quite as good as Sanheim.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I have a more simplistic take on Sanheim. If someone has that hand-eye coordination, foot speed and dexterity, if he can play at speed and his hands and brain are keeping up, if he has the vision and creativity to make the plays he makes ... if he has all of this in his locker - and there is no question that he does - all he has to do is apply it at the NHL level. Maybe his dangles and toe drags and tricks and domination won't transfer in their present form to the NHL, but that core set of elite physical and mental characteristics come with him. The application of those core skills - with the help of quality coaching, which I fully expect him to get out of Hak - should see him succeed. There are no guarantees, obviously, but there's also little reason to doubt that he will become something at least a little special. (And I am not suggesting anyone has heavy doubts about him.)

This precisely.

I know not everyone on this board is a fan of or follows football, but they make personnel decisions every year with pretty much the same questions that people have about Sanheim and whether or not his game will translate to the professional ranks. Teams watch receivers every year go up against inferior corners that won't sniff the NFL yet they still hit on a high number of their picks? Why? They evaluate and project. You evaluate a player's skill set, knowing what he can and cannot do, and knowing what works in the professional game and you project what that player will look like in that setting.

To relate it to another sport, there's a saying in baseball. You need one pitch to compete. Two pitches to win. And three pitches to dominate. The more things you can throw at opponent, the better chance you have at beating them. I was only trying to point out Sanheim has more ways to beat an opponent (offensively) than Provorov.

 

[Random Forest]

No. How does Sanheim benefit more from the sloppy play of junior defenders and defensive breakdowns (in the same league and conference) than Provorov? If your answer is he's a more active and up-tempo defender, I don't agree with that. You can exploit those things in more ways than just being a more active player. As I pointed out more than 2/3 of Provorov's goals this year came from the hashmarks and below. Why? Because he recognized a defensive breakdown, skated to open ice, and his teammate hit him with a pass. Check out that goal against Red Deer in the playoffs. He got the puck in the slot and was so wide open he got to unleash a ****ing full windup slapshot!

Fair point, for sure, but I'm not strictly speaking to how it specifically affects production numbers. It's the overall offensive package that I'm referring to, and a lot of Sanheim's ability to totally control the offensive zone is because he aggressively exploits opposing players who simply can't read the play or defend against a smooth 6'4 player like Sanheim.

To your point, this isn't a criticism of Sanheim for being able to do things that Provorov can't and doesn't do. I would never criticize Sanheim for having "more levels to his game" and the ability to do more things with the puck. Again, my entire argument is not a criticism of the kid. A critique would be if I were suggesting that he were doing something wrong... there's no issue here aside from my wondering just how much of the offensive zone he'll be able to control when he gets to the NHL. To tie it all together, I just don't see NHL defenders control the offensive zone like Sanheim does, so I'm left to wonder to what degree he'll be able to retain this ability. Perhaps Sanheim will maintain this ability fully-- that would certainly be a home run!

Without getting into a back and forth over nothing to do with the thread, I'll just say going back to last year, anyone who even hinted that Sanheim might be a better prospect than Provorov seemed to provoke you whether you realize it or not. You're posts sometimes come off like it's absurd to prefer Sanheim to Provorov. You have questions about Sanheim. I have questions about Provorov. I don't think either of us are right or wrong. These kids are still prospects. Not saying this applies to you, but I think that gets lost in around here no matter how many times it is pointed out. Gostisbehere was ranked as what the 4th best prospect in the system last year? He might turn out to be the best one.

Realizing I am higher on Sanheim than probably everyone but Stizzle on this board and as this poll shows I am clearly in the minority in preferring Sanheim to Provorov as a prospect, I should be prepared for the arguments now.

Hmm, I don't know about this. I think that's an unfair way to characterize my position on the Provorov/Sanheim debate. I'll just quote my post from this very same thread in 2015-- it's actually super interesting to read this given the current context :

The thing with Sanheim is that I've never quite seen an offensive defenseman with his type of offensive instincts. He obviously gets points in the traditional way of making smart plays on the breakout and solid decision making on the offensive blueline, but he also gets quite a lot of points by hauling ass to the net and joining odd man attacks regularly. There aren't many defenders in the league who are as comfortable as Sanheim in joining the attack as the man driving the net. That particular skill reminds me a bit of Scott Niedermayer, though Niedermayer thought the game at an elite level, so it always worked for him.

So I'm curious to see how that mentality will translate to the NHL for Sanheim. I know he's proven to be very adaptable, and he's shown a willingness to play more conservatively depending on his role and the situation, but it is worth noting that a significant part of his offensive skill set is something we don't have much basis for projecting at the next level. It could be a major edge for Sanheim or it could be a nonfactor when he makes the jump to the NHL.

That's why I'd have Provorov ahead of him. I have almost no doubt that his particular skills will translate to the NHL. I'd also like to see Sanheim be a bit more assertive without the puck on his stick. I still love Sanheim, but I don't necessarily consider him a slam dunk prospect just yet. I do consider Provorov a slam dunk, though, which is why I have to pick him #1.

I'll probably pick Sanheim next, but I personally have him closer to Morin and Gostisbehere than Provorov. I recognize this is certainly debatable, although I could not disagree more that anyone of our prospects has "clearly" a higher ceiling than Provorov.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=104836209#post104836209

I mean, perhaps you're right, but I think you're being a little bit unfair. I've never begrudged someone for having Sanheim ahead, and I genuinely do not think I've ever suggested it to be an absurd position even though I've always disagreed.

And FWIW, we both wanted Sanheim to be more assertive last summer. He absolutely became more assertive and my opinion of him absolutely went up because of it. I have much less separating Sanheim and Provorov right now than I did one year ago, so I do think your characterization of my opinion as rigidly in favor of Provorov is a little tilted. EDIT: And that's also interesting because while my opinion of Provorov/Sanheim has narrowed, clearly the forum has trended in the other direction during that same span... so make of that what you will!

 

[flyersfan018]

Isn't it nice to have two prospects who are so damn good we have trouble picking one over the other?

The thing I like best is how unique they all are. Provorov, Sanheim, Morin, Ghost, and Myers are all super unique in their skill sets and will hopefully compliment each other perfectly.

Wellwood and Testwuide are gonna be something special man I'll tell ya.

 

[HammerTime44]

How about Provorov 1a & Sanheim 1b because they are both really good and I'm glad we have both of them.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Hmm, I don't know about this. I think that's an unfair way to characterize my position on the Provorov/Sanheim debate. I'll just quote my post from this very same thread in 2015-- it's actually super interesting to read this given the current context :



http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=104836209#post104836209

I mean, perhaps you're right, but I think you're being a little bit unfair. I've never begrudged someone for having Sanheim ahead, and I genuinely do not think I've ever suggested it to be an absurd position even though I've always disagreed.

And FWIW, we both wanted Sanheim to be more assertive last summer. He absolutely became more assertive and my opinion of him absolutely went up because of it. I have much less separating Sanheim and Provorov right now than I did one year ago, so I do think your characterization of my opinion as rigidly in favor of Provorov is a little tilted. EDIT: And that's also interesting because while my opinion of Provorov/Sanheim has narrowed, clearly the forum has trended in the other direction during that same span... so make of that what you will!

Fair enough.

I think we can all agree if these two turn out as good as we think and hope, this franchise will be in reallllllllly good shape. Provorov-Sanheim could be a top pair on a Cup winning team. That Gostisbehere guy is alright too.

 

[BackWithaVengeance]

No, but Sanheim could be a 60-70 point Dman....and Provy doesn't have the potential to be that IMO.

I am just happy we have them both! Then add in the offense of Ghost. And the size and meanness of Morin. Then Myers. And....

So happy we have hope on the way. And then next years draft we will start adding more D as all it pipelines are filled up. I expect a much more balanced draft next year.

I love how we have so many different great d-prospects. Sometimes we all forget one more ... Mark Friedman.

If he becomes anything close to Ghost it would be awesome.

 

[dats81]

Provorov seems to have established himself as the future cornerstone of the defense within one year.
I don't even question his talent but Konecny and Sanheim are pretty close in terms of upside so the result of this poll kinda surprised me.