2015 NHL Draft Thread Part VI

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FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
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It implies that you think people are "hating" Crouse for no reason other than his production.
But I do believe that. And the more reasoning I see by certain people the more it reaffirms my belief.

I'm also curious what you mean by this:



...as if I hate Crouse and think he has no future.
You have a Crouse sensor. Any time someone defends him or has anything positive to say you're right there to shoot it down. Its like Groundhog day.
 

Random Forest

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May 12, 2010
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I'm talking about Crouse's wrist shot, not when he "loads it up." I think Crouse's wrist shot is lethal and quick. I don't think Zacha's is any better.

I agree with you on Meier, though. He'd be my biggest disappointment at 7. I never considered even having to worry about that until recently, with some whispers he could crack the top 10 and that the Flyers like him.

I'm also talking about Crouse's wrist shot. When he has time, he loads it up and leans into it with his full body weight. Zacha's shot is released quicker, and he's able to get it off on the rush.
 

Random Forest

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But I do believe that. And the more reasoning I see by certain people the more it reaffirms my belief.
So then you're saying it's not possible to actually observe Crouse and not be overly high on him? Pick one, man.


You have a Crouse sensor. Any time someone defends him or has anything positive to say you're right there to shoot it down. Its like Groundhog day.
That's not true at all. I speak up when I see Crouse supporters getting arrogant about their evaluation of him (ie, "If you're not high on him then you don't watch him play"). Kind of like what you're doing above.

When I'm simply giving my opinion on Crouse and not responding to the condescending snark of obnoxious fans, I often have very positive things to say about him.

I wouldn't have him in the top 12 if I didn't think there was anything positive about him. I get FAR more frustrated with his condescending fan boys than I get with the player. I like the player; I won't be mad if we draft him. I don't know how many times I can say it. The only thing I have a problem with is when his fans go out of their way to suggest that anyone who remotely disagrees is a stat watcher.

EDIT: Lol, that's a good observation, Striiker. My Crouse conversations are almost exclusively with FLYguy. If I have a Crouse sensor, then so does he. :laugh:
 
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Striiker

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You have a Crouse sensor. Any time someone defends him or has anything positive to say you're right there to shoot it down. Its like Groundhog day.

And you appear to be doing the exact opposite.

I swear the two of you seem to be exactly the same except his view is slightly on the anti-Crouse side and you seem to be more on the pro-Crouse side... It's like an exact balancing act. (To be clear I'm not saying ones pro and ones anti, I'm just saying slightly more on that side than exact neutral)


Also, I think you're assuming too much when you say people who are not too high on Crouse are just being fools by looking at his production. I don't think that's true at all, not for everyone.

Personally, I don't hate him or love him. I think there's better options but I wouldn't be mad about taking him at all. But that's not about his points, its about how I keep hearing people in the media say how his offense might not traate much, and that's not based off his points it's based off his skills. It's a question about whether or not he's producing that much because of his size relative to his peers or not. Will he be able to play the game the same way against bigger and faster guys? I think everyone knows he could've put up more points this year if it wasn't for his team, I dont think his production is that important at all. Same as Zachas or Barzals production doesn't bother me much, I just look at skill sets.
 

Jray42

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I don't hate on Crouse solely because of his stat line this year, I just would rather them take a guy who has more potential to be a top line, dynamic offensive talent. Not to say any of the other available forwards are likely to become that, but I feel it's possible with the likes of Marner, Barzal, etc. I just don't think Crouse will be that dynamic, top line offensive threat, while the others COULD be. Crouse will probably be the more well rounded, physical, two way guy, at least from what I've determined/read. (Correct me if I'm completely off base here)


Maybe I'm wrong and Crouse does become the best of all other forwards that will be available around 7. For what it's worth, I'm not insanely high on Zacha either, but I prefer him to Crouse.

And you appear to be doing the exact opposite.

I swear the two of you seem to be exactly the same except his view is slightly on the anti-Crouse side and you seem to be more on the pro-Crouse side... It's like an exact balancing act. (To be clear I'm not saying ones pro and ones anti, I'm just saying slightly more on that side than exact neutral)


Also, I think you're assuming too much when you say people who are not too high on Crouse are just being fools by looking at his production. I don't think that's true at all, not for everyone.

Personally, I don't hate him or love him. I think there's better options but I wouldn't be mad about taking him at all. But that's not about his points, its about how I keep hearing people in the media say how his offense might not traate much, and that's not based off his points it's based off his skills. It's a question about whether or not he's producing that much because of his size relative to his peers or not. Will he be able to play the game the same way against bigger and faster guys? I think everyone knows he could've put up more points this year if it wasn't for his team, I dont think his production is that important at all. Same as Zachas or Barzals production doesn't bother me much, I just look at skill sets.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.
 

Appleyard

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I like that we have interviewed Tomek... he could well be there in the 3rd and while not as well known as the other 'big 4' (Samsonov, Blackwood, Vladar) in this draft.

PS: That is my 'big 4' goalies... not consensus or anything! I just think from what I have read and the little I have seen about Tomek he could well be in the class those three are, and those three are very likely all taken by the end of the 2nd.
 

FLYguy3911

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Oct 19, 2006
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So then you're saying it's not possible to actually observe Crouse and not be overly high on him? Pick one, man.
You can, but it all comes back to the points for most people who don't like him. It's never a breakdown of what he does or doesn't do well. Everyone says he's a complimentary player. I don't see him as being any more of a complementary player than say a guy like Barzal.
EDIT: Lol, that's a good observation, Striiker. My Crouse conversations are almost exclusively with FLYguy. If I have a Crouse sensor, then so does he. :laugh:
You do it on the main boards too. I don't post in that thread. It just turns into a pissing match if you defend the kid.

Also, I think you're assuming too much when you say people who are not too high on Crouse are just being fools by looking at his production. I don't think that's true at all, not for everyone.
I may be, but that's probably because people rarely put together a well thought out post pertaining to him.

Personally, I don't hate him or love him. I think there's better options but I wouldn't be mad about taking him at all. But that's not about his points, its about how I keep hearing people in the media say how his offense might not traate much, and that's not based off his points it's based off his skills. It's a question about whether or not he's producing that much because of his size relative to his peers or not. Will he be able to play the game the same way against bigger and faster guys? I think everyone knows he could've put up more points this year if it wasn't for his team, I dont think his production is that important at all. Same as Zachas or Barzals production doesn't bother me much, I just look at skill sets.
This is a perfectly fine and reasonable opinion. This is few and far between though.

Contrary to popular belief, I don't love Crouse. I've said time and time again he's not in my top 5. Not close really. I just don't dislike the kid as much as other people do. I defend him a lot and that may come off as "loving" the kid, but that's mostly due to the arguments on the other side. I was the same way during Morin's draft year. It was many of the same arguments.

I think he's going to be a good NHL player. He does too many things well. He's not a playmaker. He's not going to put up a lot of assists and to a person that believes all points are equal, you probably won't value this kid too highly. He's a goal scorer. He probably won't have too many more assists than goals, but he will more than make up for that in other areas. I value guys who can play special teams as well and I think he has the potential to be a go-to guy on both the PK and PP and you can't say that about a lot of guys in this draft. Everyone says he's a high floor low ceiling player and I don't exactly buy that. He still has projection and he's one of the youngest players in the draft which I love.
 
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Random Forest

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May 12, 2010
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You can, but it all comes back to the points for most people who don't like him. It's never a breakdown of what he does or doesn't do well. Everyone says he's a complimentary player. I don't see him as being any more of a complementary player than say a guy like Barzal.
Of course there are people who are going to brush him off for lacking the totals, but it's quite arrogant to suggest that anyone who is not high on him is simply a stat watcher. If you look past these people, you'll see many others who are able to actually articulate the reasons they don't value Crouse that highly. Crouse is not without his flaws, and there are many legitimate reasons to not love him.


And if you'll take the time to read most of what I say about Crouse, you'll notice my posts aren't all that critical of Crouse's game. My posts are critical of the arguments employed by his most ardent fans. The three most infuriating, which I probably tend to respond to most often, are the "your opinion is invalid, you stat watcher", "he made the WJC gold medal team", and "his skill set is so rare, of course he's so valuable!" arguments. I just have to roll my eyes at those. IMO, those are just as stupid as arguing he's not a top prospect because he didn't hit PPG.


To put this to bed--

Reasons to love Crouse: He does everything well; he wins battles and creates space better than anyone in the draft; gets to the net; he's a three zone player and will probably be important pieces on the PP and PK; he's huge, skates very well, finishes his checks, and actually has some really nice skill to go along with all of it.

Reasons not to love Crouse: He's not very creative, and it limits his offensive opportunity; it's easy to plan against a player with limited creativity; his vision is lacking and you rarely see him make plays that require much precision; his first steps aren't very explosive.

There's a lot more to like than dislike. It's just that his lack of creativity is a pretty stifling limitation that really can't be improved upon. I won't use the word complementary player in reference to Crouse, but he will not be overly successful if he is the best player on his line, imo-- even if he reaches near his upper limit, I still think this will be the case. With Barzal (or whoever else you'd like to compare him to), if he reaches his ceiling, he can be the driver on his line. I don't see that with Crouse even if he's a better bet to be a contributing NHL player.

You do it on the main boards too. I don't post in that thread. It just turns into a pissing match if you defend the kid.
Again, next time you see me respond to something about Crouse, observe whether I'm attacking Crouse/Crouse's skill set or if I'm attacking an argument being used to justify his ranking. Far more often I'm attacking the latter. As much as you hate the ignorance of people who bash him for not being PPG, I hate people who assume he's a guaranteed impact player because he's 6'4" and well rounded. Projections are not that simple.
 

SanBlom

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I like that we have interviewed Tomek... he could well be there in the 3rd and while not as well known as the other 'big 4' (Samsonov, Blackwood, Vladar) in this draft.

PS: That is my 'big 4' goalies... not consensus or anything! I just think from what I have read and the little I have seen about Tomek he could well be in the class those three are, and those three are very likely all taken by the end of the 2nd.

No Sandstrom?

I like Tomek too and would love to snatch him up in the later rounds.
 

daynus

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This draft year is totally crazy. The discussions we have had on here are way more in terms of volume and in intensity. Some people love player a and hate player b or vice versa. I am very very mellow in real life and feel pretty much neutral. But I will say this, having 7 picks in the top 100, will give hextall a chance to propel us back into an eastern powerhouse. We can just have hope and trust in him, that we will win the cup.
At work today I met a guy from Saskatoon, same age as me, and he was 5 and a flyers fan for first cup, and I was 4 and flyers fan for first cup.
So I asked him whom are we gonna draft. He said provorov or werenski and I was like, oh god, could be one of 6 people, I don't have a clue. Gonna find out in three weeks.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
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To avoid the back and forth I'll just respond to this part...
With Barzal (or whoever else you'd like to compare him to), if he reaches his ceiling, he can be the driver on his line. I don't see that with Crouse even if he's a better bet to be a contributing NHL player.
I don't disagree with that assessment, but is that a more valuable player? Is a one way playmaker more valuable than a two-way wing, that can score, and play in multiple situations?
 

flyershockey

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Oct 10, 2006
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The latter is much more of a need though.

The more I think about Crouse, the more I like him. Big, strong wingers that can contest the edges of a defense with speed are becoming immensely valuable.
 

sa cyred

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^^
Not necessarily, but for this team I'd rather have the former.

Agreed.

In Barzal's case he actually has played on the pk and almost every report says he is good defensively. Actually just read 3 reads on him that call him a two-way forward. Just because he is great offensively doesnt mean he is bad defensively.
 

Random Forest

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To avoid the back and forth I'll just respond to this part...I don't disagree with that assessment, but is that a more valuable player? Is a one way playmaker more valuable than a two-way wing, that can score, and play in multiple situations?

Well, I'd say so (and I'd disagree that Barzal is 'one way'; he's not a defensive stalwart, but I wouldn't consider it a weakness, either). If both reach their respective ceilings, I'd suggest it's like comparing Gabe Landeskog to Nick Backstrom. And if we're more conservative with both of them, it'd be like comparing Troy Brouwer to Derick Brassard, imo.

If you put Landeskog and Backstrom alone on their respective lines, I'd say Backstrom would drive the play better than Landeskog would, and same with the other comparison. Really, that's all I'm getting at. And, tbh, I wouldn't even say it's equally likely for both players to reach those ceilings. I'd say Crouse has a better chance of being Landeskog than Barzal has of being Backstrom, which is why I have no problem with someone preferring Crouse here (and, in fact, a small part of me does prefer Crouse here for that reason; don't worry, the rest prefers Barzal ;)). Again, the only thing that bugs me are the arguments I mentioned above that people use to defend that opinion.
 
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FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
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I picked Barzal and Crouse because they couldn't be more different as prospects. Barzal has been comp'd to Bryan Little. Crouse to Ladd. Might be able to ask Jets fans what kind of player they prefer.

We could use both kinds of players up front.
 

Roo Mad Bro

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Damnit I honestly have no idea who my #1 guy is right now. I have about 7 players that I'd like the Flyers to draft.

On one hand, I'd kind of like to know "my guy".

But on the other hand, it's a good thing that there are multiple prospects worthy of the 7th overall spot.

Group includes (no order): Barzal, Zacha, Crouse, Rantanen, Connor, Provorov, Werenski).
 
Jun 13, 2010
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If the top five are all gone, I think I'd be happy with one of Barzal, Zacha, Rantanen, or Provorov. I'm only going off highlight videos and scouting reports though.

What players do you guys think will be playing in the NHL next season?
 

SheasRebellion6

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Jan 17, 2012
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That McDavid kid has a chance.

Also, might as well add this in. I would definitely take Barzal over Crouse. I think he has the potential to be G's eventual successor. He has skill, good size, speed, vision, and work ethic. Absolutely has things to work on. He needs to continue to cut down on the number of forced plays he tries to make. However, this did improve later in the year. His 2 way game needs to be more consistent and it most likely will as he matures. Also, I think the Crouse comparison to Landeskog is a little much. Crouse isn't anywhere near as NHL ready as Landers was. Both Crouse and Barzal would benefit from another year of junior.
 
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Curufinwe

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Crouse is a June birthday and Ladeskog was a November birthday so I agree Landeskog was a much more NHL ready prospect.
 

Hockeypete49

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Damnit I honestly have no idea who my #1 guy is right now. I have about 7 players that I'd like the Flyers to draft.

On one hand, I'd kind of like to know "my guy".

But on the other hand, it's a good thing that there are multiple prospects worthy of the 7th overall spot.

Group includes (no order): Barzal, Zacha, Crouse, Rantanen, Connor, Provorov, Werenski).


One of them will be a Flyer, unless one of the top five drop which I doubt. I am leaning towards Crouse, Zacha or Provorov. The key is Jersey who I think takes a large quick forward.
 

FLYguy3911

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Oct 19, 2006
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If the top five are all gone, I think I'd be happy with one of Barzal, Zacha, Rantanen, or Provorov. I'm only going off highlight videos and scouting reports though.

What players do you guys think will be playing in the NHL next season?

I don't think any of those 4 play in the NHL next year. Rantanen could play in the AHL and maybe he gets a handful of games, but I don't think he plays a full year. Provorov has a chance depending on who drafts him, but I don't think that would include the Flyers.
 

sa cyred

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This quote from Pryor really shows that I think they are going to go with a forward.

"I think it's fair to say in that group [of possibilities at No. 7] it probably favors the forwards," Pryor said. "... It's a pretty talented group, and there's a lot of really talented forwards in that group and there are a few defensemen. I would say it probably leans more toward a forward at this point."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_blogs.htm?id=40106

Also Pryor said multiple times that he thinks this is an very deep draft. They have quite a few guys they like at 29/30
 
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