2015/16 Miscellaneous NHL Talk

[CanadianFlyer88]

Off-season Thread III

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[PALE PWNR]

That is odd because hes a Devils fan so its odd he just began rooting for a team later on in his career.

When your profession is anything related to sports you take any job opportunity you can get, there are no more allegiances to teams any longer, your favorite team is the one signing your pay check.

 

[mantis toboggan]

I think Hawks fans might be the least educated fans in the entire league. Some of the stuff being said in the g/ vora vs toews/Kane thread is mind numbing

 

[Mkoll]

When your profession is anything related to sports you take any job opportunity you can get, there are no more allegiances to teams any longer, your favorite team is the one signing your pay check.

I dont think that is true at all. A professional should be able to put their bias aside and do their job for a non-favorite team.

I do not like banks, but I work for one. And, I can do my job very well. Same concept.

 

[PK16]

I think Hawks fans might be the least educated fans in the entire league. Some of the stuff being said in the g/ vora vs toews/Kane thread is mind numbing

When a team like the Hawks has recent success like a championship, you get an increase in bandwagon fans that tend on average to be less knowledgeable. I am guessing that is part of what you are seeing.

 

[Tripod]

When a team like the Hawks has recent success like a championship, you get an increase in bandwagon fans that tend on average to be less knowledgeable. I am guessing that is part of what you are seeing.

Not really...because it has gone right down to the media.

In reality, Toews became a media darling at the WJC. Then when you add in team success, they keep feeding off of it.

It reminds me of the debate of Gretzky vs Messier. It was 100% media driven and then became an accepted debate even though Gretzky was so much better. But the media ALL started on with Messier's leadership, grit, desire to win, etc..to try and create an argument that MM was better. Sound familiar?

BUT...in trying to be non biased, I do understand why Hawks fans would keep who they have.

I also wonder about this. We ALL know Couts is better than Schenn despite Schenn out scoring Couts by 10 points. So maybe that is how CBH fans feel about Toews vs other top players.

Just my 2cents.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Cups make people say stupid things. If you've ever noticed, intangibles talk usually gets attributed to key top six two-way centers on Cup winners (Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, etc.) and players that have no argument to even be in the NHL otherwise (meaning, goons and fighters). Cups elevate the worth of individual players (especially said team's most important players) despite being a team and franchise accomplishment and it's extremely stupid, but that's what it boils down to.

 

[Larry44]

Cups make people say stupid things. If you've ever noticed, intangibles talk usually gets attributed to key top six two-way centers on Cup winners (Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, etc.) and players that have no argument to even be in the NHL otherwise (meaning, goons and fighters). Cups elevate the worth of individual players (especially said team's most important players) despite being a team and franchise accomplishment and it's extremely stupid, but that's what it boils down to.

What's stupid about it? The point is to win. That's why guys like Kopitar and Toews are so valuable. They lead their teams to victory while guys like Thornton or Crosby come up small more often than not. I'm surprised Flyer fans, whose only Cups came because of Bobby Clarke's sheer will to win and leadership, don't appreciate the importance of intangibles. Clarke defined "intangible" since he was far from the flashiest or most skilled player; he won because he refused to lose.

 

[Tripod]

What's stupid about it? The point is to win. That's why guys like Kopitar and Toews are so valuable. They lead their teams to victory while guys like Thornton or Crosby who come up small more often than not. I'm surprised Flyer fans, whose only Cups came because of Bobby Clarke's sheer will to win and leadership. Clarke defined "intangible" since he far from the flashiest or most skilled player; he won because he refused to lose.

But as I said in that thread...this is not true.

Toews had 3 points in 6 games and was -5 in the SCF against Philly.
Toews was also 9th on Chicago in points.
And yet the Blackhawks won.

If Giroux had those numbers in ANY series, do the Flyers win? Nope.

And again, if today, Toews got traded to the Leafs, does he win a cup? Nope. Did he become a less hockey player because of it? Nope.

 

[flyershockey]

What's stupid about it? The point is to win. That's why guys like Kopitar and Toews are so valuable. They lead their teams to victory while guys like Thornton or Crosby come up small more often than not. I'm surprised Flyer fans, whose only Cups came because of Bobby Clarke's sheer will to win and leadership, don't appreciate the importance of intangibles. Clarke defined "intangible" since he was far from the flashiest or most skilled player; he won because he refused to lose.

So everyone else just didn't want it enough? I'm sure you understand how silly that sounds.

All those Toews/Kane threads do is prove how underrated/underappreciated Duncan Keith really is. The guy has been the driving force behind three championship teams, but he constantly plays second fiddle to the higher profile forwards. It reminds me of the 90's-2000's Detroit teams. It was Fedorov and Yzerman getting all the press at the time, but it wasn't until Lidstrom took the next step towards elite that they won a championship. It's also why they continued to stay at that level for a decade+, despite some up and down years from Yzerman and Fedorov.

 

[Striiker]

Not really...because it has gone right down to the media.

In reality, Toews became a media darling at the WJC. Then when you add in team success, they keep feeding off of it.

It reminds me of the debate of Gretzky vs Messier. It was 100% media driven and then became an accepted debate even though Gretzky was so much better. But the media ALL started on with Messier's leadership, grit, desire to win, etc..to try and create an argument that MM was better. Sound familiar?

BUT...in trying to be non biased, I do understand why Hawks fans would keep who they have.

I also wonder about this. We ALL know Couts is better than Schenn despite Schenn out scoring Couts by 10 points. So maybe that is how CBH fans feel about Toews vs other top players.

Just my 2cents.

I've been arguing in that thread for pages now... mostly repeating the same concept over and over because they just can't seem to get it. But my point isn't even that Giroux/Voracek are obviously better or that choosing Toews/Kane is ridiculous, it's that their reasoning behind it is just pure stupidity. The comments like "I'll take the guys who win" or "The ones with cups" are just people who don't have a clue.

If someone had said "I think Toews and Kane are better players, I choose them" then I never even would have bothered responding. I disagree and would choose Giroux and Voracek, but there's no issue with them liking the other two better. It's when they choose those two with dumbass logic to back it up that made me respond.

 

[Jtown]

ive never seen a player get overblown with hype as much as toews.

 

[Rebels57]

What's stupid about it? The point is to win. That's why guys like Kopitar and Toews are so valuable. They lead their teams to victory while guys like Thornton or Crosby come up small more often than not. I'm surprised Flyer fans, whose only Cups came because of Bobby Clarke's sheer will to win and leadership, don't appreciate the importance of intangibles. Clarke defined "intangible" since he was far from the flashiest or most skilled player; he won because he refused to lose.

Also, Clarke had a great TEAM around him. Just like Toews and Kane. Put Giroux and Voracek on the 2014-2015 Blackhawks in place of Toews and Kane and they win the Cup.

Kopitar had Doughty, Williams, Gaborik, Carter, and Quick playing just as/if not more important roles.

Bergeron had Thomas, Chara, and Krejci playing just as/if not more important roles.

Toews had Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa, Sharp..etc you get the idea

 

[ILoveStephanieBrown]

ive never seen a player get overblown with hype as much as toews.

Tavares... not to the extent of Toews, but it's still pretty ridiculous. Must have something to do with the JT initials.

 

[Garbage Goal]

What's stupid about it? The point is to win. That's why guys like Kopitar and Toews are so valuable. They lead their teams to victory while guys like Thornton or Crosby come up small more often than not. I'm surprised Flyer fans, whose only Cups came because of Bobby Clarke's sheer will to win and leadership, don't appreciate the importance of intangibles. Clarke defined "intangible" since he was far from the flashiest or most skilled player; he won because he refused to lose.

That's why it's stupid. Or I guess only certain select Cup winning players ever actually have an intense desire to win the Cup, everybody else is just kind of there for funsies. I'm sure the teams beyond just Kopitar/Toews/Clarke were absolute trash as well but it's their intangible desire to win that you somehow know so well that won them the Cup. We only need 20 players in a game on each side just for funsies as well.

Crosby has won a Cup actually.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

You could very much argue that Bernie was the most important player of those cup teams back in the day.

 

[Random Forest]

Even if we're SUPER generous and say that Toews and Kane are 30% of the Hawks, there's still 40% of their success that they aren't responsible for. 40% can obviously make or break a perennial Cup winner.

Then consider that they're not even close to 60% of the Hawks when you have Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Hossa, etc. to account for.

It just defies all sense to attribute the Cups to two players. There's so much more to a team than two player. If two players could be that important, then the Pens would have three Cups and not the Hawks. It's just so stupid, and it's so frustrating that it's not a fringe opinion but one shared by a sizable portion of fans.

 

[Tripod]

Tavares... not to the extent of Toews, but it's still pretty ridiculous. Must have something to do with the JT initials.

Maybe that is a thread to start.

Who is the better JT and why.

 

[FLYERSG]

Maybe that is a thread to start.

Who is the better JT and why.

Both are very very overrated.

 

[Tripod]

Both are very very overrated.

Hence why it would be a great thread to read.

 

[Ryker]

Well, I guess Toews is overrated by some other hockey greats, too, and not just non-educated non-Flyers fans. Gretzky has him as one of the top 2 players in the league. But he also a dum dum

 

[PALE PWNR]

Well, I guess Toews is overrated by some other hockey greats, too, and not just non-educated non-Flyers fans. Gretzky has him as one of the top 2 players in the league. But he also a dum dum

Gretzky rankings for best player in the league

1. Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Doughty, Karlsson, John Scott, BJ Crombeen, Zac Rinaldo, etc...

 

[Ryker]

Gretzky rankings for best player in the league

1. Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Doughty, Karlsson, John Scott, BJ Crombeen, Zac Rinaldo, etc...

No, those are Don Cherry's.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Well, I guess Toews is overrated by some other hockey greats, too, and not just non-educated non-Flyers fans. Gretzky has him as one of the top 2 players in the league. But he also a dum dum

If we're going by his coaching career then yeah he might be.

Aside from that, that's the exact same silly and fallacy-filled logic of "well we can't criticize management, they're the ones who are in player and have played the game, we're just laymen on a keyboard".

 

[Striiker]

Gretzky has a habit of exaggerating on who's the best of this and that.