2014 NHL Draft Discussion - Part II

[CodeE]

It honestly amazes me how many Islander fans are still pulling for another "blockbuster" trade and some of the names being thrown out. We took our chance on Vanek and it blew up in our faces. Should we continue to package young assets until our prospect pool is depleted completely and we don't have a first round pick until 2030?

Some of the names being thrown around - DeHaan, Pulock, a top 5 pick - it's astonishing to me that there actual Islander fans who believe these guys should be sold off to the highest bidder so we can make another risky Vanek trade and hope the new guy really likes Long Island. Nevermind that we've had problems with nearly every high-profile player we've brought in, (Vanek, Lubo, Nabby) because the NEXT guy we bring in will certainly have no problems whatsoever and it's worth giving up players like CDH & Pulock for.

I can see Winnipeg fans proposing Reinhart + 1st ++ for Kane because they're being ignorant to the Islanders needs and want the delusion that other teams will break the bank for their problem child. But Islander fans proposing these trades? It's crazy.

Consider this, before Vanek, there was a superstar player we made a blockbuster trade to acquire. Gave up a young defenseman and a top-5 pick. Those players we gave up? Zdeno Chara and Jason Spezza. I believe we've just stopped paying the buyout of the "superstar" we acquired.

Next time you propose moving CDH, Pulock, etc. for an established player, ask yourself what Milbury would do. And then do the exact opposite.

 

[blinkman360]

It honestly amazes me how many Islander fans are still pulling for another "blockbuster" trade and some of the names being thrown out. We took our chance on Vanek and it blew up in our faces. Should we continue to package young assets until our prospect pool is depleted completely and we don't have a first round pick until 2030?

Some of the names being thrown around - DeHaan, Pulock, a top 5 pick - it's astonishing to me that there actual Islander fans who believe these guys should be sold off to the highest bidder so we can make another risky Vanek trade and hope the new guy really likes Long Island. Nevermind that we've had problems with nearly every high-profile player we've brought in, (Vanek, Lubo, Nabby) because the NEXT guy we bring in will certainly have no problems whatsoever and it's worth giving up players like CDH & Pulock for.

I can see Winnipeg fans proposing Reinhart + 1st ++ for Kane because they're being ignorant to the Islanders needs and want the delusion that other teams will break the bank for their problem child. But Islander fans proposing these trades? It's crazy.

Consider this, before Vanek, there was a superstar player we made a blockbuster trade to acquire. Gave up a young defenseman and a top-5 pick. Those players we gave up? Zdeno Chara and Jason Spezza. I believe we've just stopped paying the buyout of the "superstar" we acquired.

Next time you propose moving CDH, Pulock, etc. for an established player, ask yourself what Milbury would do. And then do the exact opposite.

1) There is a difference between trading for Vanek, a UFA, and a guy like Bogosian who will be under team control for years.

2) Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember seeing anyone include de Haan in the list of trade chips. If so, I agree, that's ridiculous.

3) I don't think anyone is of the mindset that we should look to trade our top-5 pick/Pulock for whatever we could get. I do think it would be wise to at least explore that route though, since quality players seem to be dealt every offseason. For example, Cory Schneider could have gone a long way towards getting us to that next level.

 

[CodeE]

1) There is a difference between trading for Vanek, a UFA, and a guy like Bogosian who will be under team control for years.

2) Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember seeing anyone include de Haan in the list of trade chips. If so, I agree, that's ridiculous.

3) I don't think anyone is of the mindset that we should look to trade our top-5 pick/Pulock for whatever we could get. I do think it would be wise to at least explore that route though, since quality players seem to be dealt every offseason. For example, Cory Schneider could have gone a long way towards getting us to that next level.

1. They can still drag their feet and demand a trade even if they are under control. Generally speaking, within the past couple of years, if we sign or draft a high-profile player, there's no problem. When we trade for one (Vanek, Lubo, Yashin), there always seems to be a problem. Again, is Bogosian really that much of an upgrade over Reinhart, CDH, Pulock? Is his ceiling (that he hasn't hit in Winnipeg) that much higher than our other guys?

2. The latest trade offer (proposed by an Isles fan) in the trade forum Kane thread is DeHaan, Bailey and Collberg for Kane, with Reinhart being available if management believes in Pelech. For a guy currently being sued for assaulting a stranger.

3. Why do we have to explore that route to begin with? We need a goalie, yes, but we've seen improvements from many young forwards (Strome, Nelson, Lee look like mainstays in the lineup) and everyone knows about our defensive depth. Besides, there are definitely some fans that seem obsessed with the idea of bringing in another superstar player. What works in NHL 14 doesn't always work in real life.

Sometimes the best move is no move at all. Keep all the high-valued prospects, (if you wanna trade Bailey or Strait be my guest) take a high-end forward in the draft, and spend UFA throwing money at the top goalies. That will be so much better for this organization in the long run than making ESPN headlines for one day because we sacrificed our youth for Yashin 2.0.

 

[Goombha]

They might not be god awful next ear, but look at the teams in the top 5 of the draft this year, other then buffalo and maybe Edmonton they are trending upward. florida finally has a goalie, calgary has some young talent as well. So with that they are all improving, we aren't improving in the most 2 important positions- goalie and defensemen plus we won't have a new coach next year. Most of the teams will get better via FA but we probably won't due to ownership. So we might be at the bottom again next year. They way I see it, Wang didn't want to spend $$ on good players to make the team relevant to keep them here on LI. What makes him want to spend now all of a sudden? Chances are he will keep payroll at the floor again even if the floor is higher.

That's certainly one way to speculate. The other would be the complete opposite. Split the difference and you're somewhere in the middle, so what's that, 7 to 12? IMO, hardly worst the risk if MDC is your consolation prize.

 

[blinkman360]

1. They can still drag their feet and demand a trade even if they are under control. Generally speaking, within the past couple of years, if we sign or draft a high-profile player, there's no problem. When we trade for one (Vanek, Lubo, Yashin), there always seems to be a problem. Again, is Bogosian really that much of an upgrade over Reinhart, CDH, Pulock? Is his ceiling (that he hasn't hit in Winnipeg) that much higher than our other guys?

2. The latest trade offer (proposed by an Isles fan) in the trade forum Kane thread is DeHaan, Bailey and Collberg for Kane, with Reinhart being available if management believes in Pelech. For a guy currently being sued for assaulting a stranger.

3. Why do we have to explore that route to begin with? We need a goalie, yes, but we've seen improvements from many young forwards (Strome, Nelson, Lee look like mainstays in the lineup) and everyone knows about our defensive depth. Besides, there are definitely some fans that seem obsessed with the idea of bringing in another superstar player. What works in NHL 14 doesn't always work in real life.

Sometimes the best move is no move at all. Keep all the high-valued prospects, (if you wanna trade Bailey or Strait be my guest) take a high-end forward in the draft, and spend UFA throwing money at the top goalies. That will be so much better for this organization in the long run than making ESPN headlines for one day because we sacrificed our youth for Yashin 2.0.

Yashin seemed like a desperation move. Although, the difference between trading for a Yashin-type now vs back in '01 is that we have a nucleus in place. Anyone we trade for won't have to be 'the guy', and we won't be putting all of our eggs in one basket. BTW, for every Yashin trade that doesn't work out, there is a Peca trade that works out rather well(Connolly and Pyatt never amounted to much, while Peca became the face of our team for a few years - would have been more if not for injury).

With CdH, I'm sure whoever that was who proposed trading him is in the minority. I know there was one idiot on here the other day saying a guy like de Haan wouldn't even have a spot in a winning team's organization, which is a complete joke. There are certain guys I'd be against trading no matter what, and he would fall under that category. Strome, Nelson, Lee and Reinhart would also fall into that category. Pulock and the top-5 pick would be close, but it would depend on the player available. Bogosian was just an example, but even with him I'd have to consider parting with something valuable to get him here.

You should always be looking into the trade market to see what is there, even if you have no intention of trading any of your young players. I'd be pretty disappointed if I found out that's why Snow failed to bring in Schneider/Bernier last year, because he just decided not to look into the trade block.

In a perfect world, we could address all of our holes via free agency. Unfortunately, that appears to be easier said than done. Maybe they refuse to overpay. Maybe most players just don't want to sign here. Who knows? Either way, it seems that the trade route might be the most likely resource for bringing in an impact player(again, doesn't have to be a superstar, but even a 2nd pairing defenseman would qualify).

 

[A Pointed Stick]

1) There is a difference between trading for Vanek, a UFA, and a guy like Bogosian who will be under team control for years.

2) Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember seeing anyone include de Haan in the list of trade chips. If so, I agree, that's ridiculous.

3) I don't think anyone is of the mindset that we should look to trade our top-5 pick/Pulock for whatever we could get. I do think it would be wise to at least explore that route though, since quality players seem to be dealt every offseason. For example, Cory Schneider could have gone a long way towards getting us to that next level.

+1. Trading for an UFA vs. an RFA or someone locked up long term are 2 different things. I half expect a trade by the draft using our first round pick for someone under contract. I do not expect any UFA action except a goaltender. What that goaltender looks like is another story.

 

[blitzkriegs]

I wouldn't say likely, but possible yes. Likely to me would be a 5-10 point increase which most likely means no playoffs but drafting in the 8-14 range

The Isles have to give up less than almost a goal per game against to sniff the playoffs. That's an amazing rebound with pretty much the same team, management, and coaching staff.

 

[Poliz24]

That's certainly one way to speculate. The other would be the complete opposite. Split the difference and you're somewhere in the middle, so what's that, 7 to 12? IMO, hardly worst the risk if MDC is your consolation prize.

I understand what your saying. But one 18-19 year old kid who we might not see for another year or two isn't worth it to me when we can get some proven vets who aren't 35 years old in here now that can help us win next year and in BK when we are trying to attract new fans and some interest.

 

[islandermaniac]

Be careful, boredmale. Apparently saying that another bottom-5 pick is possible means you are a 'doomsday prognosticator'.

i guess i will be a doomsdayer as well, then. until this team proves anything at all over the course of an entire 82 game season, why would anyone believe that success is likely or even probable? isn't that more of a fair question rather than having to provide reasons, as our dear friend goombha has suggested us doomsdayers should do, why the isles will stink again?

punt the pick. the isles have other picks in this draft so they will still come away with a few decent prospects. giving up next year's first, despite what the kool-aid drinkers say, could turn out to be connor macdavid. couple that with the fact that the isles also DON'T have their second rounder next year, and the nyi are looking at an awfully thin 2015 draft harvest.

 

[boredmale]

i guess i will be a doomsdayer as well, then. until this team proves anything at all over the course of an entire 82 game season, why would anyone believe that success is likely or even probable? isn't that more of a fair question rather than having to provide reasons, as our dear friend goombha has suggested us doomsdayers should do, why the isles will stink again?

It's not a case of if we don't make the playoffs we screwed up not deferring. Given were we pick(assuming nobody jumps us in the draft lottery) I would saying we break even if we pick next year around 7th-8th(which is still a bad season). People are acting as if we only have 2 options were we finish next year(either last or make the playoffs) and their is absolutely no middle ground

 

[bluechipbonzo]

It honestly amazes me how many Islander fans are still pulling for another "blockbuster" trade and some of the names being thrown out. We took our chance on Vanek and it blew up in our faces. Should we continue to package young assets until our prospect pool is depleted completely and we don't have a first round pick until 2030?

Some of the names being thrown around - DeHaan, Pulock, a top 5 pick - it's astonishing to me that there actual Islander fans who believe these guys should be sold off to the highest bidder so we can make another risky Vanek trade and hope the new guy really likes Long Island. Nevermind that we've had problems with nearly every high-profile player we've brought in, (Vanek, Lubo, Nabby) because the NEXT guy we bring in will certainly have no problems whatsoever and it's worth giving up players like CDH & Pulock for.

I can see Winnipeg fans proposing Reinhart + 1st ++ for Kane because they're being ignorant to the Islanders needs and want the delusion that other teams will break the bank for their problem child. But Islander fans proposing these trades? It's crazy.

Consider this, before Vanek, there was a superstar player we made a blockbuster trade to acquire. Gave up a young defenseman and a top-5 pick. Those players we gave up? Zdeno Chara and Jason Spezza. I believe we've just stopped paying the buyout of the "superstar" we acquired.

Next time you propose moving CDH, Pulock, etc. for an established player, ask yourself what Milbury would do. And then do the exact opposite.

Agree with most of this, but need to add:

A Pulock or Pokka may have to be traded, just to ensure proper development. With Donovan, Pedan, and Mayfield also needing reps on the powerplay, there just isn't a lot of room. You can't expect Pulock or Pokka to develop as power play fixtures with this mess of talent in Bridgeport. Nevermind if big Griff needs more seasoning. I suppose that gets balanced off with Pokka perhaps staying in Finland one more year.

One of the above mentioned gets moved at the draft 99%...there just ain't enough room!

 

[N Ireland Nets Fan]

Agree with most of this, but need to add:

A Pulock or Pokka may have to be traded, just to ensure proper development. With Donovan, Pedan, and Mayfield also needing reps on the powerplay, there just isn't a lot of room. You can't expect Pulock or Pokka to develop as power play fixtures with this mess of talent in Bridgeport. Nevermind if big Griff needs more seasoning. I suppose that gets balanced off with Pokka perhaps staying in Finland one more year.

One of the above mentioned gets moved at the draft 99%...there just ain't enough room!

Plenty of room, only Pokka and Pulock have really been mainstays of any teams they were playing with, on the 1st power play unit. Pedan and Mayfield are more shutdown stay at home d guys, same to an extend with Pelech.

I expect a Bridgeport core of something like:

Czuczman - Mayfield
Pedan - Pulock
Pelech - Pokka

With Reinhart and Donovan with the Isles.

Powerplay unit: Sundstrom, Kabanov, Collberg, Pulock, Pokka.

Pokka has experience as the PP QB for Karpat in the SM Liiga while Pulock is the perfect trigger man from the point waiting to unload his cannon.

Penalty Kill: Czuczman and Mayfield

So there really isn't a need at all to move on any of the d prospects. Reinhart will be in the NHL next year, Visnovsky was even talking about possibly retiring this summer due to his concussions. I can see Reinhart and Donovan starting in the NHL next year.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Plenty of room, only Pokka and Pulock have really been mainstays of any teams they were playing with, on the 1st power play unit. Pedan and Mayfield are more shutdown stay at home d guys, same to an extend with Pelech.

I expect a Bridgeport core of something like:

Czuczman - Mayfield
Pedan - Pulock
Pelech - Pokka

With Reinhart and Donovan with the Isles.

Powerplay unit: Sundstrom, Kabanov, Collberg, Pulock, Pokka.

Pokka has experience as the PP QB for Karpat in the SM Liiga while Pulock is the perfect trigger man from the point waiting to unload his cannon.

Penalty Kill: Czuczman and Mayfield

So there really isn't a need at all to move on any of the d prospects. Reinhart will be in the NHL next year, Visnovsky was even talking about possibly retiring this summer due to his concussions. I can see Reinhart and Donovan starting in the NHL next year.

I never read your analysis on Donovan. What do you think of him so far? He isn't as bad as he was but his mistakes are crushing when they occur and all involve defense. I know I can be a pedantic unforgiving neanderthall when it comes to certain players, but his core defensive instincts suck. And all that without the Berard-ish upside (I disliked him for the same reasons as well).

IMO, I am happy when he gets moved at the draft.

 

[doublechili]

I've mentioned this before, but I think too many posters are discounting Ritchie when maybe they shouldn't be. When I look at the Isles' current roster, I always find myself wanting to put Lee at LW with JT, Strome and Nielsen. Reason? Lee is a 6'3", 227lbs LW who can score.

Ritchie is a 6'3", 225-230 lb LW who can score. Sure, Ehlers might be more exciting and puts up more points. Ditto with Dal Colle. But a guy like Ritchie makes putting together a lineup a whole lot easier, and makes playing against said lineup a whole lot harder.

Just, as they say, saying.

 

[scott99]

No offense, but I think it's crazy to talk about Pulock or Reinhart as trade bait, or even discuss trading them. We don't have ANY offensive defenseman like Pulock in our system, nobody. He is our future pp quarterback. AND we don't have any shutdown Dman as good as Reinhart in our prospect stable.

 

[N Ireland Nets Fan]

I never read your analysis on Donovan. What do you think of him so far? He isn't as bad as he was but his mistakes are crushing when they occur and all involve defense. I know I can be a pedantic unforgiving neanderthall when it comes to certain players, but his core defensive instincts suck. And all that without the Berard-ish upside (I disliked him for the same reasons as well).

IMO, I am happy when he gets moved at the draft.

This is going to sound crazy stupid without much logic so bare with me ......

BUT Donovan was atrocious at the start of the season but since he came back up to the Islanders at the Winter classic at Yankee stadium, Donovan has really shown some nice glimpses of what he is capable of. He still has some really silly rookie errors or give aways but he has definitely improved quite a bit.

I don't think he's going to get the time and be put in a position to succeed with the Islanders. I mean he is an offensive defensemen who is meant to be a PP QB but he only got limited PP time. Donovan would be a defenseman I would be willing to trade without doubt and here comes the crazy part but I can't see him being developed and turning into the offensive guy we're looking for. But if we traded him I bet he turns into a good offensive defensemen in the NHL. Does that make sense at all?!?

So stay with the Islanders with little chance of being our PP QB and show casing those skills or move on in a trade to be used appropriately long term and turn into a NHL defensemen. Right now I see him as a top 2 AHL d guy with upside who hasn't shown me enough to merit a spot full time going forward. Czuczman looks a better bet to me with his superior skating and physical play while also showing a glimpse of an offensive game as he gets comfortable in himself.

Ideally Strait and Carkner are beat out for jobs but I think we will be minus Strait, Visnovsky and Donovan next year, leaving de Haan, Hamonic, Hickey, Reinhart and Carkner on our roster. I reckon we will sign a few guys, especially with Visnovsky debating about retirement and not playing anymore.

But I'd move Donovan in any deal we do this summer.

 

[N Ireland Nets Fan]

I've mentioned this before, but I think too many posters are discounting Ritchie when maybe they shouldn't be. When I look at the Isles' current roster, I always find myself wanting to put Lee at LW with JT, Strome and Nielsen. Reason? Lee is a 6'3", 227lbs LW who can score.

Ritchie is a 6'3", 225-230 lb LW who can score. Sure, Ehlers might be more exciting and puts up more points. Ditto with Dal Colle. But a guy like Ritchie makes putting together a lineup a whole lot easier, and makes playing against said lineup a whole lot harder.

Just, as they say, saying.

I agree with what your talking about in regards size but give me a 6'1 bull who can score and set up others like Draisaitl ahead of a 6'3 giant of a man like Richie.

Maybe your talking about if we're selecting 5/6 and it's down to Dal Colle, Ehlers and the rest type situation but it's 1:15am here and I'm half asleep haha

 

[doublechili]

Lottery viewing question: do they still start with the #5 pick when flipping the cards? If so, is this what we'll know right away (and correct me if I'm missing something obvious and have this wrong!):

1. Flip the card and see the NYI logo. That's that. We (or Buffalo) have the #5 pick.

2. Flip the card and see the Calgary logo. That leaves 2 possibilities:

a. Some team in the 6-15 range won the lottery and the Isles will pick #6 (there is a 21.7% chance of this happening as of now); or

b. The Isles won the lottery (there is an 8.1% chance that this happens as of now).

So, again if my calculations are correct, if the 1st card is turned and it's Calgary, the Isles' chances of winning the lottery increase to roughly 27.2% (with the converse, 72.8%, being the likelihood that they're at #6).

I don't know how the Devils are handled. Are they taken out of the lottery from the start (that's what my #s assume)? Or are they still in the lottery, but if they "win" the order reverts to default?

 

[N Ireland Nets Fan]

Lottery viewing question: do they still start with the #5 pick when flipping the cards? If so, is this what we'll know right away (and correct me if I'm missing something obvious and have this wrong!):

1. Flip the card and see the NYI logo. That's that. We (or Buffalo) have the #5 pick.

2. Flip the card and see the Calgary logo. That leaves 2 possibilities:

a. Some team in the 6-15 range won the lottery and the Isles will pick #6 (there is a 21.7% chance of this happening as of now); or

b. The Isles won the lottery (there is an 8.1% chance that this happens as of now).

So, again if my calculations are correct, if the 1st card is turned and it's Calgary, the Isles' chances of winning the lottery increase to roughly 27.2% (with the converse, 72.8%, being the likelihood that they're at #6).

I don't know how the Devils are handled. Are they taken out of the lottery from the start (that's what my #s assume)? Or are they still in the lottery, but if they "win" the order reverts to default?

I'm not 100% sure but the NHL should do the lotto like the NBA. In the NBA they do a lotto for each of the top 3 picks so finishing 1st overall guarantees you a top 4 pick and that's it. Makes it much more likely the worst team that usually has tanked the year, doesn't get top pick. Makes things 10 times more random and enjoyable.

 

[doublechili]

I agree with what your talking about in regards size but give me a 6'1 bull who can score and set up others like Draisaitl ahead of a 6'3 giant of a man like Richie.

Maybe your talking about if we're selecting 5/6 and it's down to Dal Colle, Ehlers and the rest type situation but it's 1:15am here and I'm half asleep haha

Yeah, I hear you. And notice that I didn't include Draisaitl as a comparable in my original post since he does provide some of the same qualities. Just FYI, at this moment (and things change daily), this is my personal preference:

1. Reinhart/Ekblad (tie)
3. Bennett/Draisaitl (tie)

5. Dal Colle/Ritchie/Ehlers (very close)

 

[duster19]

With the disaster that is vancouver, torts calling to get younger and new management, I think the Canucks are a good spot to dumpster dive. I really like Bieksa and if he is available for a couple early/middlemen picks I would be interested. Maybe mtls 2nd and a 3rd?

 

[Phrazer]

Canucks fan who is interested in gauging the Islander's needs. If potentially Bennett, Reinhart, Ekblad and MDC went in the first 4 picks. Who would you think the Islanders take at #5?

 

[BTrotts19]

I've mentioned this before, but I think too many posters are discounting Ritchie when maybe they shouldn't be. When I look at the Isles' current roster, I always find myself wanting to put Lee at LW with JT, Strome and Nielsen. Reason? Lee is a 6'3", 227lbs LW who can score.

Ritchie is a 6'3", 225-230 lb LW who can score. Sure, Ehlers might be more exciting and puts up more points. Ditto with Dal Colle. But a guy like Ritchie makes putting together a lineup a whole lot easier, and makes playing against said lineup a whole lot harder.

Just, as they say, saying.

I agree with you 100%. You bring in an physical, north-south player who can chip in goals and create space and restore order on the ice against the likes of Philly and Toronto for JT and KO, that is a huge intangible for me. At the 5th spot may be on the edge of a reach but I definitely would not be pissed if it did happen.

 

[boredmale]

Canucks fan who is interested in gauging the Islander's needs. If potentially Bennett, Reinhart, Ekblad and MDC went in the first 4 picks. Who would you think the Islanders take at #5?

No clue to be honest. The Islanders seem to like OHL or WHL players first round but that can be meaningless if they really like Ehlers

In general it's hard to get any idea what Snow is thinking(hell even during the Tavares draft)

 

[blinkman360]

Canucks fan who is interested in gauging the Islander's needs. If potentially Bennett, Reinhart, Ekblad and MDC went in the first 4 picks. Who would you think the Islanders take at #5?

I would hope for Ehlers in that scenario, but my gut says the Isles will go with the consensus BPA in Draisaitl, or they go for need with Ritchie.